Crowd Control/Heroic Surge Feedback

[mediocresurgeon]

Here's some feedback on your Heroic Surge:

I would rather be automatically tripped just for walking into the same room as an Air Elemental or Wolf with no save and no chance of getting up, then have Crowd Control nerfed back into the stone age via Heroic Surge.

Casters are already becoming fairly useless. Don't make it worse for them.

If this change goes live, please concentrate on working on non-spellcaster PrE's because nobody would want you wasting development time on classes that nobody would want to play.

[Aashrym]

That would be true if there was one class in DDO. There is not one class in DDO. Melee classes can chop 'em up,
Arcanes can nuke, insta-kill or CC. Surely you see the impact of this to players who have chosen to focus on the
latter?

Yup, I'm thinking insta-kill is the best option out of those 3 choices. If I have a choice of spending SP immobilizing mobs for a short period of time and hoping we can kill them quickly, or just spending the SP to outright kill them. I can see what choice looks better to me. Unless that disappears too.

To bad bards don't get insta-kill.

[shadosatblackphoenix]

Here's some feedback on your Heroic Surge:

I would rather be automatically tripped just for walking into the same room as an Air Elemental or Wolf with no save and no chance of getting up, then have Crowd Control nerfed back into the stone age via Heroic Surge.

Casters are already becoming fairly useless. Don't make it worse for them.

This.

The heroic surge system alone literally breaks the entire game for me (even though I don't play an arcane caster. I do have a wizard, but its low level, so I doubt that really skews my opinion).

As a primary healer, spamming heals on people playing DDO: DPS Unlimited doesn't exactly sound fun to me. Shorter CC durations (anything < 1 minute for the better CC spells is too little for most of the game. I realise in Epic and whatsnot you're more limited, and thats why I don't play epic. Mass Suggestion and FtS works fine for most of the "fun" game) just means forcing people who want to do something else than meleeing everything down into zerging.

::Yawn:: BOOOOOOOOORING.

Bards, Sorcs and Wizzies using dancing balls, flesh to stone, as well as melees with paralyzers and others, is what keeps the game a creative environment, as opposed to being like all other Generic MMO 1-2-3 where you just kill everything that moves.

I rather Air Elemental have permanent DC 100 implosion than dealing with this stupid nerf.

[Xyfiel]

The real question, what is next?
Can I get immunity to damage once I get hit so many times in 30 seconds? How about immunity to reflex spells? Ability damage?

This change breaks much more then CC casters. See if I can make a list

All CC spells
Fascinate/mass suggestion
Enthrall
Trip
Sap
Hamstring?
Stunning fist/blow?
Whirlwind Sword
Stone to Flesh
Song of freedom
Will saves in general
Balance
Any clicky with a cc spell(mostly useless now)
Wand heightening(mostly useless now)
Electric loop
Mind blast?
Dark path Monks
Freedom of movement
Holy aura
Luck/resist items
GH
protection and magic circle(also the Fragment)
Any character who naturally or makes an effort for anti CC saves:
Paladins
Monks
Fvs
Clerics
force of personality
Elfs(plus the enhancements)
Drow(plus the enhancements)
Wizards
Sorcerers
Dwarfs(plus the enhancements)
Human Versatility
Warforged(plus the enhancements)
halflings(plus the enhancements)
Barbarians

Thats is all I can think of right now, but the major issues of lack of CC, and lack of need to resist CC will completly change the game. Everyone can go ahead and make kensaiIII, rogue2 now with enough umd to use heal scrolls. Just make some shroud haste/displacement clickies. Nothing else is needed. It is sad that the only CC option really will be intimitanks.

[Emili]

...
I won't lose sleep over more spells landing more reliably. Also, many immunities target CC spell uniquely.

You missed what I said have you not? Take a spell like Hold monster ... will save - well if Hold monster lands better guess what else lands better? If FtS lands better guess what else is more effective? If Web lands better ... what do you suppose also works better? The same system for instant death and damage spells is the same for CC. Stands to reason why hold monster when one may just PK.

[Pharaun78]

I left another mmo I'd been playing for years, after trying ddo as free to play. Two things convinced me to become a paying customer (VIP). CC and traps.

Instead of the usual trio of tank/heal/dps, killing endless spawns in a pretty field, ddo offers something ... more.

That being said, already cc casters are significantly weakened at high levels, my beloved lvl 18 Wiz is sadly gathering dust, cuz I've had to swop to a KoTC-Pally for shroudin. Which is disheartnin really, cuz my reason for becoming your customer, was enjoying CC (still loving my rogue btw), instead of the normal flash-bang pew pew.

The IQ quests are a step in the right direction, with a well build CC caster still offering something. (A previous post talked about removing immunities from monsters, and giving them strong surges instead ... balance) .

But yes, please address the worg/air elemental issue directly ... change their AI to use the skills less often. Simple. Easy. Everybody wins. No wide ranging, unforeseen side effects, or loads of disappointed customers. I have not tested it personally, but from what I've read here, this change does not even fix the very issue it's meant to address! It only weakens CC even more.

Please reconsider

[Kemoc]

I agree there could be some adjustments to the game CC wise for playability. I think these could be better addressed by adjusting the saving rolls for individual effects, that is D&D. This would take care of problems with trips or knockdowns due to Dogs or Air Elementals. Personally i don't have a problem with these monster effects as a well composed party or good strategy can handle these difficulties. As for over use of Fire Wall or Fascination, same cure you can adjust the saving rolls for the Mobs, that is D&D. What is this Heroic Surge, is there some gnome that pops out of the ground and blows his whistle. Hey it's the CC police everybody out of the pool. This is so World of Warcraft not D&D. Everything breaking at the same time is wrong. For one it just isn't believable. I understand the reasoning behind it, but the effect is just not believable from a player perspective. I have similar issues with Dungeon Alert. There could be some sort of sliding scale of difficulty, over time or attempt, not some whistle blowing and penalty imposed. Some of the most fun we have had with my Virtuoso Bard, and party, is pulling the perfect combo of CC spells and Melee tactics to win a situation where we where up against it. My poor Virtuoso is already the red headed stepchild of DDO. Just check the Bard Forum nobody plays them, please don't make Bard Jethro a complete joke.

[Zenako]

A few more testing tidbits.

Explorer areas seem to be under the Heroic Surge Rules for Normal Setting in Quests.

i.e. 4 minute spell durations cut to 3 minutes or a bit less.


HOWEVER, I also noted something else this afternoon.

Spell Description for Flesh to Stone gives one save and then another save every minute. Well out in the Vale the Stoned ones were getting another save every 20 seconds this afternoon (and usually making it) and then a Heroic Surge on top of that once their total time under effect got to some point. When they save normally, they are suspectible to being immediately reaffected. When they surge, all bets are off as detailed previously.

more later as I keep trying things out, but it seems some things have changed during the downtime today (and not necessarily for the better) unless I was clueless and missed the update where mobs get saves every 20 seconds for Flesh to Stone effects.

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

The real question, what is next?
Can I get immunity to damage once I get hit so many times in 30 seconds? How about immunity to reflex spells? Ability damage?

This change breaks much more then CC casters. See if I can make a list

All CC spells
Fascinate/mass suggestion
Enthrall
Trip
Sap
Hamstring?
Stunning fist/blow?
Whirlwind Sword
Stone to Flesh
Song of freedom
Will saves in general
Balance
Any clicky with a cc spell(mostly useless now)
Wand heightening(mostly useless now)
Electric loop
Mind blast?
Dark path Monks
Freedom of movement
Holy aura
Luck/resist items
GH
protection and magic circle(also the Fragment)
Any character who naturally or makes an effort for anti CC saves:
Paladins
Monks
Fvs
Clerics
force of personality
Elfs(plus the enhancements)
Drow(plus the enhancements)
Wizards
Sorcerers
Dwarfs(plus the enhancements)
Human Versatility
Warforged(plus the enhancements)
halflings(plus the enhancements)
Barbarians

Thats is all I can think of right now, but the major issues of lack of CC, and lack of need to resist CC will completly change the game. Everyone can go ahead and make kensaiIII, rogue2 now with enough umd to use heal scrolls. Just make some shroud haste/displacement clickies. Nothing else is needed. It is sad that the only CC option really will be intimitanks.

This post made me sad. Truth can do that I guess...

Heroic surge is to saves what grazing hits was to AC, only much, much worse and on a much, much broader scale...

Working hard to learn and build good characters should be rewarded, not penalized.

[Zenako]

Checked out Rangers Improved Wild Empathy. It appears to be unaffected by this change with no Heroic Surges or increased saves chances (currently none if the animal fails the first one). The 5 Minute duration lasted the full 5 minutes in Explorer zones and in quests on Elite (and I assume in everything in between).

Not that too many players actually use it, but I know I do on occasion and wanted to know.

[Xyfiel]

Checked out Rangers Improved Wild Empathy. It appears to be unaffected by this change with no Heroic Surges or increased saves chances (currently none if the animal fails the first one). The 5 Minute duration lasted the full 5 minutes in Explorer zones and in quests on Elite (and I assume in everything in between).

Not that too many players actually use it, but I know I do on occasion and wanted to know.

Creatures of low int should not be affected imo. If I felt like moving a char to Lam, I could check vermin and eles too, but I just don't have the desire to under the current move over conditions.

[Zenako]

If you stack various CC and debuffs, when the Heroic Surge hits, it does negate ALL CC type effects at once, no matter how long they have been in place, but it appears that debuffs like Energy Drain and Ray of Weakness remain after the surge, at least on Normal/Explorer areas.

So when you hit a mob that has been CC'd for 2:59 with another type of CC, it all breaks once the first one has been in place for 3:00 (approximately) regardless of how long that CC would otherwise last.

[RobbinB]

Of course both extremes aren't good design. But I don't think it applies here, especially with that change with surges / CC.

I also wouldn't like DDO to be as solo friendly as it is group friendly, and to keep that, Turbine needs to maintain hindrances to survivability of one, incautious person. Other than that, I think we should test it well before we really insist on opinion. Release Notes are really virtual.


Well, but have you tested it yet on Lamannia? I confess I didn't, and we both should check if what you said still applies now.

Recklessly charging around a corner into a room of mobs including an air elemental that throws you down and gives those mobs a chance to surround you would be suitable punishment for your recklessness. Making it so you have absolutely no chance to get up and therefore survive the encounter (ie. the way it has been) is plain ridiculous.

[Borror0]

"If used with moderation..." is the key part of that. That looks to me like cutting back on the usage of mob CC is still key to resolving this as equitably as possible for both sets of opinions. Maybe keep the same effects, reduced chance of utilizing them compared to other options the mob has available.

You're assuming we're at a frequency that is too high right now, which I disagree. With the exception of wolves and air elementals, we get hit by far too little CC effects. The game would be better if we got it by more CC effects, and a greater range of them. Thing is, if they do that we would be CC'd very often because the effects can last pretty long which means it's possible to be perma-CC'd even at a low proc rate.

Heroic Surge address both points:

• The effect lasts shorter.
• Once you get out of the CC effect, you're immune to CC for a small amount of time.

You missed what I said have you not? Take a spell like Hold monster ... will save - well if Hold monster lands better guess what else lands better? If FtS lands better guess what else is more effective? If Web lands better ... what do you suppose also works better? The same system for instant death and damage spells is the same for CC. Stands to reason why hold monster when one may just PK

I address the comment about insta-death effects earlier in the thread.

As for other spells, I won't lose sleep over them landing more often because the Fort and Will saves have been dropped. I might say differently about reflex-based CC (or not) but that's a minority anyway and it has its niche against low reflex target.

If cc was currently overpowered that might be true, currently it isn't though.

The power level of a spell is largely determine by the environment in which it is used. If all end game quests had respawns that could be stopped by Flesh to Stone'ing them all, the end game would become ridiculously easy if the quests were balanced around the assumption the mobs would keep respawning for 15 minutes even though Flesh to Stone might be neither underpowered nor overpowered.

The same applies all spells and, in this case, all CC spells. If they can be landed reliable, then the battlefield become very predictable. That's just one of the effects it has, by definition. If you make them shorter, it permits the developers to allow them to hit more often.

Shortening the length of CC might just as well push it down the useless bin and relegate casters to being useful to have a long to speed up blazing through the low levels.

IMPORTANT --> A flaw that can be corrected cannot be used as an argument to prove the system should be scrapped. <-- IMPORTANT

If you see a flaw that you feel should be addressed, tell them. This thread has the word "feedback" in its title for a reason.

That would be true if there was one class in DDO. There is not one class in DDO. Melee classes can chop 'em up,
Arcanes can nuke, insta-kill or CC. Surely you see the impact of this to players who have chosen to focus on the
latter? - I can't believe you'd be so obtuse not to.

The fact that there is more than one class in DDO is core to my argument, actually.

You said that the difference "between immobilizing or killing a mob is purely semantic." I said that, no, it isn't because killing a mob requires interaction between the rest of he party: the healer has to heal, the CC has to CC, the DPS has to DPS and if there is a tank he is to tank. Immobilizing the mob through CC, however, is both much easier and requires less interaction within the party. In other words, the two play very differently which is why the difference between the two is more than semantics.

CC spells should remain useful, I would say that domination/suggestion has transitioned from being a useful approach to being a downright hazard with these proposals.

I know and I stated my agreement to this point pages ago.

[Aashrym]

You're assuming we're at a frequency that is too high right now, which I disagree. With the exception of wolves and air elementals, we get hit by far too little CC effects. The game would be better if we got it by more CC effects, and a greater range of them. Thing is, if they do that we would be CC'd very often because the effects can last pretty long which means it's possible to be perma-CC'd even at a low proc rate.

Heroic Surge address both points:

• The effect lasts shorter.
• Once you get out of the CC effect, you're immune to CC for a small amount of time.

So what you are advocating for is CC that will come more frequently than we already see and work less effectively than we already see. I thought part of the heroic surge was to remove the CC and and provide temporary immunity. How will spamming weaker spells that players are immune to improve game play?

I address the comment about insta-death effects earlier in the thread.

I've suggested, before, that Turbine changes Death Ward or Death Block to a bonus to saves against [Death] spells. If done so, it could be used as a way to give monsters better saves against instant-death spells and lower saves against other crowd control spells. Another point to remember is to realize that those usually are Fortitude saves while most CC spells are Will saves.

I do not see how reducing the effectiveness of CC and the effectiveness of insta-death is really helping improve the caster experience. Now we only have blaster left. Wizzie and Bard capstones improve CC, not DPS. Hello Sorc as the most playable caster? Either that or, 'Look...I can buff the party AND use a crossbow!'

The power level of a spell is largely determine by the environment in which it is used. If all end game quests had respawns that could be stopped by Flesh to Stone'ing them all, the end game would become ridiculously easy if the quests were balanced around the assumption the mobs would keep respawning for 15 minutes even though Flesh to Stone might be neither underpowered nor overpowered.

The same applies all spells and, in this case, all CC spells. If they can be landed reliable, then the battlefield become very predictable. That's just one of the effects it has, by definition. If you make them shorter, it permits the developers to allow them to hit more often.

That gets back to landing insta-death. CC is already weaker than insta-death by the fact that the creature is still there and still needs to be dealt with. Weakening CC only makes Insta-death spells look better, and weakening those as per your above quote drives the status quo closer to DPS.

It seem like Heroic Surge is railroading players into more limited selections for playstyle instead of providing more options. Spells can be modified to work better without adding this mechanic.

You said that the difference "between immobilizing or killing a mob is purely semantic." I said that, no, it isn't because killing a mob requires interaction between the rest of he party: the healer has to heal, the CC has to CC, the DPS has to DPS and if there is a tank he is to tank. Immobilizing the mob through CC, however, is both much easier and requires less interaction within the party. In other words, the two play very differently which is why the difference between the two is more than semantics.

I'm not sure I follow you on how more options creates less interaction. I would counter that with more options creates more communication and planning a successful strategy for the entire party and generating a rewarding experience.

[Aashrym]

Just for clarification, the spell changes in the release notes look fine. It's the heroic surge mechanic that I don't agree with.

[Borror0]

How will spamming weaker spells that players are immune to improve game play?

Occupying the right amount of brain activity is important for any game to be fun.

Chess is fun because each decision entail a large amount of brain activity as you have to carefully analyze the board and think ahead. If you speed up Chess too much by giving a ludicrously low amount of time to make each decision, the game would lose its appeal as it would lose its strategical aspect quite a bit. On the other hand, there was a mandatory 5 minutes wait between each move, the game would become too slow and boring.

The same can be applied to any game, digital or not: finding the right pacing is really important.

If fights are more alike Shroud part 5 where all is required is spamming the same spell while standing still as a caster or only your right mouse button for a melee character. If fights are too fast-paced, most players won't have a clue of what's going on and it's not much fun either.

Making CC effects last longer serves in taking us away from Shroud part 5-like fights.

If we know we can rely on a CC spell to hold a monster for several minutes, then it's one less variable to analyze each time. If we've been immobilized for several minutes, we can stop analyzing the battlefield completely. In other words, shorter duration CC makes the game require more fast-thinking which is something DDO players prefer since a lot of them dislike the slower-paced WoW combat.

I do not see how reducing the effectiveness of CC and the effectiveness of insta-death is really helping improve the caster experience.

The comments you quoted were made in a discussion in which I suggested to drop saves and SR in response to this change. In other words, the effectiveness of CC would improve and the effectiveness of insta-death effects would, hopefully, stay more or so the same.

It seem like Heroic Surge is railroading players into more limited selections for playstyle instead of providing more options.

That's only true if game designers willingly let that happen. As explained previously, we can tell them that CC is losing too much effectiveness and they can fix that.

I'm not sure I follow you on how more options creates less interaction. I would counter that with more options creates more communication and planning a successful strategy for the entire party and generating a rewarding experience.

The difference is between killing a mob and CC'ing and then running away: in the former case, interaction between all players of the group is required in terms of healing, damage dealing, crowd control and so on; in the latter case, all is required is casting one CC spell and running.

[SableShadow]

...

At least they've got a more or less real respec mechanic in the mod along with this. Me? I'm dumping finesse and going str + con.

[Aashrym]

Occupying the right amount of brain activity is important for any game to be fun.

Chess is fun because each decision entail a large amount of brain activity as you have to carefully analyze the board and think ahead. If you speed up Chess too much by giving a ludicrously low amount of time to make each decision, the game would lose its appeal as it would lose its strategical aspect quite a bit. On the other hand, there was a mandatory 5 minutes wait between each move, the game would become too slow and boring.

The same can be applied to any game, digital or not: finding the right pacing is really important.

If fights are more alike Shroud part 5 where all is required is spamming the same spell while standing still as a caster or only your right mouse button for a melee character. If fights are too fast-paced, most players won't have a clue of what's going on and it's not much fun either.

Making CC effects last longer serves in taking us away from Shroud part 5-like fights.

If we know we can rely on a CC spell to hold a monster for several minutes, then it's one less variable to analyze each time. If we've been immobilized for several minutes, we can stop analyzing the battlefield completely. In other words, shorter duration CC makes the game require more fast-thinking which is something DDO players prefer since a lot of them dislike the slower-paced WoW combat.

Cutting the during of CC with this mechanic does exactly what you are saying is a bad idea -- speeding up the pace and requiring fast thinking. Keeping CC with long durations slows down the pace when things hit the face and provided the necessary time to regroup and strategize. The chess analogy is a good one. Players take their time, think things through and act on those thoughts.

In chess the opponent cannot do anything to speed that process up or interfere with the process. That is how CC works. The opponents are stopped long enough for the party to take a breather, think things through, and then act. CC helps control the pace the party is trying to find.

Adding a mechanic that seems to simultaneously break mobs out at once does not help the party control the pace or give them time to think. The party gets swarmed and players panic.

If the party likes a faster pace there is nothing stopping the party from using other tactics. I'm not saying a party has to use such and such a spell. I'm saying I want to use such and such a spell. Leaving this mechanic out will not eliminate the play-style you are describing, but it can eliminate the play style I prefer. IE, I'm not making you play my way, why are you advocating something that moves me towards playing your way?

The release notes show changes to spells. That demonstrates it's possible to make adjustments as needed without affecting the durations of some effects. Adding the heroic surge mechanic is less useful than adjusting spells. Adjusting spells and adding this mechanic is almost a redundant use of development.

I never mentioned making durations longer; however, the example of hold monster refers to a spell that completely immobilizes a mob countered by a shorter duration and repeat saving throws. If this is still to much it can be adjusted better than adding and adding a mechanic that breaks long and short duration CC. The release notes do show increased duration for hypnotism. Heroic surge seems counter productive to that increase and also demonstrates a precedent showing shorter durations was not the intent of the heroic surge.

I would like to see an update to the release notes or clarification if there is any.

BTW, When I was testing Hypnotism on normal in Butchers Path with a Wizzie LVL3 there was no noticeable impact on the gameplay. There is on hard and elite. I think it would be fair for me to be able to CC normally on hard and elite but with inflated saves. As fair as a melee still getting the last attack in his chain instead of the mob suddenly becoming immune to physical damage because swinging a sword it too effective with the added hit bonus.

I still won't speak for what other DDO players like about DDO or dislike about WOW. Not relevant. I'm exercising my right to provide my opinion and not speak to what other players opinions are. They can do that themselves and you might want to let them instead of telling us what they like or don't like.

The comments you quoted were made in a discussion in which I suggested to drop saves and SR in response to this change. In other words, the effectiveness of CC would improve and the effectiveness of insta-death effects would, hopefully, stay more or so the same.

Dropping both effectively to a point where they are still useful but not ineffective doesn't sound bad. The mechanic we're discussing in this feedback thread doesn't do that.

The difference is between killing a mob and CC'ing and then running away: in the former case, interaction between all players of the group is required in terms of healing, damage dealing, crowd control and so on; in the latter case, all is required is casting one CC spell and running.

Why is the party running away if CC is too powerful?

When my bard fascinates, things stop attacking, we heal, we plan and maybe buff, we attack, fascinate breaks, and the fight continues. We're adding healing, damage, dealing, crowd control; and working at a pace that allows us to plan and interact with each other effectively. This is what you seem to be telling us is wrong with CC but it seems pretty right in my experience.

The bottom line is that the heroic surge interacts with too many CC effects that are not broken or overly powerful that players invest a lot of resources in. Re-evaluate the list or remove the mechanic. I would much prefer to see the mechanic removed and effects adjusted for better playability than a system like this one.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Occupying the right amount of brain activity is important for any game to be fun.

Making CC effects last longer serves in taking us away from Shroud part 5-like fights.

If we know we can rely on a CC spell to hold a monster for several minutes, then it's one less variable to analyze each time. If we've been immobilized for several minutes, we can stop analyzing the battlefield completely. In other words, shorter duration CC makes the game require more fast-thinking which is something DDO players prefer since a lot of them dislike the slower-paced WoW combat.

Dungeons & Dragons is not just about SPEED. I do not want to finish every quest in under 3 minutes with the same exact cookie-cutter builds.

The cost/benefit of instanced dungeons was fewer, higher quality quests. Its bad enough we have a game that necessitates running through the same quests over and over again. #1 reason most of the Wizards of the Coast hardcore pen & paper crowd never made the jump is because of this very fact. Not enough randomness and imagination. Too static.

The thing that best KEPT those who DID venture over in my opinion was the EXCELLENT combat mechanism. Not just the melee, but the casting as well. Not just firewalls and polar rays, but all the different ways to incapacitate mobs. Great graphics, killer combat system, and excellent VOiP.

Destroying the randomness that we do have left, such as FUN and effective crowd control is a major step in the wrong direction for this game.