Crowd Control/Heroic Surge Feedback

[Borror0]

Well on the contrary, MY spells DO need to do that to be fun and effective. Opinion. Not fact. Opinion likely shared by most of those who have spent feats and enhancements to build an Enchanter.

I'll give you benefit of the doubt on fun, since that's subjective.

However, effectiveness is just wrong. If you don't believe me, take a look at how CC works in your average AAA MMO. You'll notice it usually have much shorter durations than it has in DDO, yet is quite effective at making big fights much easier than without. Long durations are not necessary to effective CC. If you believe so, you need to play other MMORPGs.

That is not to say there is nothing to worry about. It's quite possible for CC to become underpowered but it's false to claim it cannot be effective without long durations. It's also more constructive to spend time making suggestions on how to improve the system than telling them to scrap it.

This change is also removing consequences to builds. Low Save builds, don't worry those effects will pop off you real soon.

Once again, you refuse to assume other positive changes that could avid that like a) increasing the frequency NPCs use CC spells or b) nerfing players immunities to CC spells like Freedom of Movement. The latter would do much more to challenge low save builds than Heroic Surge could ever help them recover from.

It's one thing to point out a point of contention with the current build but it's another to assume Turbine is unwilling to change it.

Borror0, do you have anyone you actually play that focused on using Enchantment type effects?

My sorcerer used to, until Turbine started giving immunities to everything that moves.

[Zenako]

I'll give you benefit of the doubt on fun, since that's subjective.

However, effectiveness is just wrong. If you don't believe me, take a look at how CC works in your average AAA MMO. You'll notice it usually have much shorter durations than it has in DDO, yet is quite effective at making big fights much easier than without. Long durations are not necessary to effective CC. If you believe so, you need to play other MMORPGs.

Frankly how other MMOs handle it does not matter, nor should it, unless the goal is to merge all games in the world into one template. You also choose to view effective in the context of just blowing thru a quest, instead of stealting or going at more controlled pace which takes a lot more time.

That is not to say there is nothing to worry about. It's quite possible for CC to become underpowered but it's false to claim it cannot be effective without long durations. It's also more constructive to spend time making suggestions on how to improve the system than telling them to scrap it.

For some players sure, but those same players probably never bothered with CC in the first place.

Once again, you refuse to assume other positive changes that could avid that like a) increasing the frequency NPCs use CC spells or b) nerfing players immunities to CC spells like Freedom of Movement. The latter would do much more to challenge low save builds than Heroic Surge could ever help them recover from.

It's one thing to point out a point of contention with the current build but it's another to assume Turbine is unwilling to change it.

My sorcerer used to, until Turbine started giving immunities to everything that moves.

But there is nothing in the update to even hint at anything like that coming down the pike. No counter balances even sniffed. SO, in that light it is folly to presume anything is coming, unless specifically told otherwise.

SO I guess the changes Turbine had made already had nerfed your SOrc to the point of no longer being FUN for you. While some of us can live with the current level of nerfs, tossing a whole blanket change on top of things is really over the top. Since you already passed your threshold of fun limits with CC, wouldn't you agree then that Turbine has already nerfed CC too much, and additional CC is entirely unwarranted.

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

OK, so having read all of this and not having tested this myself (relying mostly on Zenako's testing numbers) the options my Bards have are the following:

Solo:
1. Casual difficulty - no CC required anyway because a 6 strength halfling Sorc can one hit kill mobs with a Masterwork dagger... BORING.
2. Normal - possibly I won't see any significant change from how I play now. Doable but still not much of a challenge when you can two-hit kill a mob with a 10 strength... Not much need for CC most of the time on normal.
3. Hard - now becomes more like Elite? Maybe?
4. Elite - No point in even bothering unless I'm multiple levels above the quest and then XP will be poor and it's only good for favor.

So, for the most part my solo/duo play will likely be relegated to casual (blech) and normal. Sometimes Hard depending on the quest. Maybe elite at higher levels if I want favor and can beat down because CC is a waste of time.

Grouping:
1. Casual - um... never. Why bother when I can do it alone???
2. Normal - maybe (same reason as above), depends on the quest. Raids, for sure.
3. Hard - I would consider taking my Bards on hard runs in a good group. CC might last long enough for everyone to kill things, etc.. Probably would see no appreciable difference between Hard groups now and hard groups later. Raids too probably.
3. Elite - Not gonna do it. The only real contribution I could make is likely buffs and healing. I might do it for favor in a group and just let them drag me along and keep them hasted as we go, but it certainly won't be fun. I need to contribute more than that to have a good time.

Finally, how is this working in Explorer Zones?

So, in closing, I probably won't quit. It'll just take me longer to level because Elite (and Hard in some cases) is effectively removed from my list of options.

I guess I can live with that.

Still don't see the point though.

[zealous]

All of that still happens and happens more often if the effects have a shorter duration which means that the players have to think more because to have to adapt to ever changing battle conditions rather than having a more stable and slower paced combat.

I.e. twinked to teh teeth supah zergers won't be affected, people playing slower, more tactically will. Higher difficulties will become even more bout the BOOM?

For lower levels going BOOM is faster, for higher levels...well...the benefits of CC is somewhat debatable.

If the effects have shorter, predictable duration, the battle conditions will be less dynamic and more uniform. I.e. You will have most of the party available, most of the time.

The time to notice someone is under a effect and reacting to it will grow even shorter. The use of rem.paralysis/stone to flesh etc. is not that common as far as I can tell.

The less the impact of enemy effects is, the less the incentive to do something about it.

The less the impact of player cc is, the less the incentive to do use it or even to use a spot for a caster.

If you are immobilized, you can't free yourself. it's the irony behind the potions of Paralysis Removal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9dDBrxAySA

Can always add remove paralysis to hirelings as well as possibly adding player heroic surges to casual and possibly normal.

If removal is readily self applied at the cost of short term lowered movement speed, then the effect clearly isn't very detrimental.

Active remedies as opposed to passive. Make heroic surge a clickie with limited use and possibly regeneration, there, no more FTS for 2mins.
...
I'm all in favor of bringing surges, as they are as long as a reasonable explanation is given, even if it's just "We need to test it and tweak it".
---
And on a unrelated note, what cheesy tactics can you use with surges?

Difficult encounter up ahead with nasty casters? That epic beholder bothering you?
No worries! Just prebuff with a heroic surge and those first critical 10s to get close and comfty for that stunning blow is a breeze!

[zealous]

However, effectiveness is just wrong. If you don't believe me, take a look at how CC works in your average AAA MMO. You'll notice it usually have much shorter durations than it has in DDO, yet is quite effective at making big fights much easier than without. Long durations are not necessary to effective CC. If you believe so, you need to play other MMORPGs.

Yes and obviously the stand still and auto attack combat of the average AAA MMO is superior to DDO and if we doubt that we need to play other MMORPGs to educate ourselves.

Indeed, your average AAA MMO will have a joke for CC that's a pale shadow of DDOs and you don't need to play one long to realize it. =)

[Borror0]

Frankly how other MMOs handle it does not matter, nor should it, unless the goal is to merge all games in the world into one template.

You claimed that long durations are necessary for crowd control to remain effective, I point out at other games that managed to have crowd control remain an effective tactics although their CC effects have a much shorter duration than CC effects do in DDO. The point was not to say we should copy them but rather to rebuke your claim that it would be impossible for CC spells to remain effective if the duration gets reduced.

You also choose to view effective in the context of just blowing thru a quest, instead of stealting or going at more controlled pace which takes a lot more time.

Incorrect assumption about what my assumptions were.

For some players sure, but those same players probably never bothered with CC in the first place.

I think you misunderstood what I meant in the paragraph you quoted.

Let me be more direct about it, then. The developers added Heroic surge for a reason. Unless you want to challenge those reasons themselves, telling them to scrap it is a waste of your own time, Zenako. Instead, it would be more constructive to point out the current flaws and offer them suggestions to fix those flaws.

But there is nothing in the update to even hint at anything like that coming down the pike.

The thread has the word "feedback'" in its title for a reason.

Since you already passed your threshold of fun limits with CC, wouldn't you agree then that Turbine has already nerfed CC too much

I do but I'm not one to object a good change on the grounds that it's not yet perfect. Flaws can be fixed.

[Emili]

You claimed that long durations are necessary for crowd control to remain effective, I point out at other games that managed to have crowd control remain an effective tactics although their CC effects have a much shorter duration than CC effects do in DDO. The point was not to say we should copy them but rather to rebuke your claim that it would be impossible for CC spells to remain effective if the duration gets reduced.
...

Effectiveness is relative to the scope of the tasks... i.e. Caster in party must now determine is casting a web, mass hold monster, fts in party a better use of their mana – given the two or three melee in group – as opposed to just damage or instant death spells? Whatever is quicker (as time is a resource also) along with other resources determines should one CC or not. These things vary on the power of the melee, the caster and the difficulty setting of the quest.

1. If the melee kill mob within two or three swings without CC – a spell is actually a waste of resource.
2. If a wail of banshee (or fireball) kill a group of mob instantly then the meleeing is a waste of swinging.
3. If a FoD kills the mob quicker then a FtS and a melee swinging at it then the FoD is more efficient.

... so lets look at a few quests when CC is popular...

1. Prey of the hunter - A typical strategy is to FtS the mob attacking the dragon... let them sit and go attack the rest of the incomming mob and the boss. This actually reverts to other stratgies for groups who may not have the DPS neccessary to apply against the incomming mob in time to get back to those mob placed on hiatus.
2. EtK -the only real quest where ooze puppet is semi-popular for a wizard... the spell saves wizards mana as a put off to outright killing the living spells, better alternative may be to kill the living spells repeatedly - thus a sorc (or a very high SP wizard) may be prefered over the puppeting wizard, depending on the overall party make up and general DPS output.

[Aashrym]

Let me be more direct about it, then. The developers added Heroic surge for a reason. Unless you want to challenge those reasons themselves, telling them to scrap it is a waste of your own time, Zenako. Instead, it would be more constructive to point out the current flaws and offer them suggestions to fix those flaws.

Let me be direct back. The developers did add it for a reason. Yes, I think I actually would like to challenge those reasons.

Telling them to scrap it might be a waste of their time but the hours I've played as a paying customer might also be considered a waste of my time.

Crowd control already has blanket immunities for monster type, bosses, a saving throw, as spell resistance check, and generally either a short duration or a long duration with break on attack.

My bard spends 5 feats (spell focus, greater spell focus, heighten, spell penetration, greater spell penetration) and pops max CHA at character generation. That is a lot of resources put into it to make decent crowd control, enhancements on top.

I need to get as many of those spells or songs to stick that I can to keep my squishy little class from getting swarmed.

Repeat saves for long durations sounds like a reasonable idea.

A blanket system that effectively turns all of my CC into shorter duration regardless of all the feats, stats, and enhancements I've invested into making them stick leaves a bitter after-taste that's really hard to swallow and keep a smile on.

IMO spell singers just took a nose dive, at least virtuoso should get the debuff if enthrall breaks, and if I played any type of bard it would likely be a warchanter. If I wanted melee heavy I would rather just play melee.

I've seen you post a lot in this thread, it looks like you're playing devil's advocate and I can appreciate that but...

You will need to do a heckuva lot better to convince me.

[Borror0]

Emili, there is a difference between "It's impossible for CC to matter if the durations are short" and "DDO is so easy that CC only matters in the few situation where it's overpowered." You're going for the latter while I'm replying to the former. I agree with what you said.

[Borror0]

The developers did add it for a reason. Yes, I think I actually would like to challenge those reasons.

Great! Do it!

Just remember that being imperfect is not a reason to oppose it unless fixing those imperfections is an unreasonable task. For example, if you say "It will make CC too weak", what you are telling them is not to scrap Heroic Surge but rather that it might be a good idea to reevaluate monsters' resistance to CC in order to keep CC relevant at end game.

I've seen you post a lot in this thread, it looks like you're playing devil's advocate and I can appreciate that but...

You will need to do a heckuva lot better to convince me.

Hehe. That's one way to describe it.

I don't think it's perfect but I do think it has the potential to improve the game. Like many here will agree, the one true concern is to not let it nerf CC into uselessness. If Turbine can ensure that CC stays useful (or, even better, becomes more useful than it is), this will be a good change.

[Aashrym]

Okay, what is our pro list for this change?

1) Players don't get locked down by CC because it can be annoying.

I can't really think of any more pro's for game play.

My solution for #1 would be treat mob CC more like mob insta-kill. When this game first came out a few years ago the discussion was there about insta-death effects.

The dev team told us then that it's really annoying to walk in, fail a save, and instantly die. The solution listed then was not to let mobs do that to players.

Why not adopt that policy with CC if creates an annoyance in game play? Give dogs a different ability than trip, same with air elementals. Stop having shaman hold person and let them acid arrow more.

How would this approach, used by this dev team, not be a better solution than mob heroic surge?

[Emili]

Great! Do it!

Just remember that being imperfect is not a reason to oppose it unless fixing those imperfections is an unreasonable task. For example, if you say "It will make CC too weak", what you are telling them is not to scrap Heroic Surge but rather that it might be a good idea to reevaluate monsters' resistance to CC in order to keep CC relevant at end game.

Hehe. That's one way to describe it.

I don't think it's perfect but I do think it has the potential to improve the game. Like many here will agree, the one true concern is to not let it nerf CC into uselessness. If Turbine can ensure that CC stays useful (or, even better, becomes more useful than it is), this will be a good change.

Interesting... well except most all CC is based on Will, some fort and other reflex... lowering these things also have a direct affect on other things in return... The mob's casting DC, The mob's resist against FoD, The mobs Damage taken from a Fireball. Saves and SR are directly related not only to CC but all Spells.

[Borror0]

I can't really think of any more pro's for game play.

Less predictable fights. By shortening the length of CC effects, you create a more unstable battlefield that keeps on changing. This means that strategies have to be reconsidered more frequently because players cannot just assume all will go as planned. Considering that DDO's playerbase is said to be attracted to the "active" aspect of its combat, that's a straight gain.

Why not adopt that policy with CC if creates an annoyance in game play? Give dogs a different ability than trip, same with air elementals. Stop having shaman hold person and let them acid arrow more.

It's not black or white.

If used with moderation, CC will create more diverse fight that do not boil down to "the monster hits you really hard and the healer heals you" by forcing new events on us.

A good example of that was when we were testing the DPS lag in the Shroud during DDO:EU. All of us had ran the Shroud countless times but what we didn't know was that Harry would use Hold Monster, Mass on us! So, we didn't have Freedom of Movement and we got our ass kicked pretty bad. It transformed what is usually a pretty boring fight into one hell of a roller coaster. Most of us agreed it was the most fun Shroud run we had in a long while, just because of that.

On the other hand, too much crowd control is bad because it means the player can't make action. Waiting is not particularly fun. A short wait can be fun, as it leads to tension, but not being about to fight back while getting your ass kicked is not particularly fun. See air elementals if you need to test that theory.

Interesting... well except most all CC is based on Will, some fort and other reflex... lowering these things also have a direct affect on other things in return.

I won't lose sleep over more spells landing more reliably. Also, many immunities target CC spell uniquely.

[Cyr]

Turbine has a long history of making changes that are wide reaching and not targeted to address specific perceived issues. What was the original reason to put this change in? Really it's hard to tell. Is it CC perceived to be too strong? Was it players find air elementals really annoying? Is it new players who can't tie their shoes without a developer's helping hand? Or was it some specific developer getting annoyed because their content was being beat by people using flesh to stone and otto's?

I can tell you what the result is. Weaker player CC in top level content resulting in an increase in the difficulty of EPIC content and less utility for arcane casters and bards in EPIC. Harder questing for borderline groups in more difficult content. A little lower duration, but hardly noticeable for new players. Oh and air elementals, almost no change.

Taking all this you have to look at two questions and ignore whatever the original reasoning for the changes were only focusing on what the changes actually do.

1) Was end game CC or borderline group CC overpowered? Was it trivializing most end game content (not some since more targeted changes would be in order if it was just some).
2) Are high level bards and arcane casters overpowered and thus need a nerf to balance them with the other classes? In other words are parties of 4 arcanes/bards with two others the good way to run top level content.

If both questions are no then the change should be thrown out completely as it does very little for anything else. If one of the questions is no then the change should be thrown out and a more targeted change should be used. If both questions are yes then the change is good enough for the job.

I for one don't see hatred for melee or healers in EPIC content (excluding DQ for melee, but CC is hardly the issue in there). I also never saw CC as over powered in EPIC having run a decent amount of it. It was very useful, but then again not much else from the arcanes really was so it was a good thing something was.

[Aashrym]

Less predictable fights. By shortening the length of CC effects, you create a more unstable battlefield that keeps on changing. This means that strategies have to be reconsidered more frequently because players cannot just assume all will go as planned. Considering that DDO's playerbase is said to be attracted to the "active" aspect of its combat, that's a straight gain.

This is a statical comment that would require access to surveys to validate. I cannot speak for what other players like, only what I like. I prefer planning out my strategy with the CC effects working as they are now.

It's not black or white.

If used with moderation, CC will create more diverse fight that do not boil down to "the monster hits you really hard and the healer heals you" by forcing new events on us.

A good example of that was when we were testing the DPS lag in the Shroud during DDO:EU. All of us had ran the Shroud countless times but what we didn't know was that Harry would use Hold Monster, Mass on us! So, we didn't have Freedom of Movement and we got our ass kicked pretty bad. It transformed what is usually a pretty boring fight into one hell of a roller coaster. Most of us agreed it was the most fun Shroud run we had in a long while, just because of that.

On the other hand, too much crowd control is bad because it means the player can't make action. Waiting is not particularly fun. A short wait can be fun, as it leads to tension, but not being about to fight back while getting your ass kicked is not particularly fun. See air elementals if you need to test that theory.

I won't lose sleep over more spells landing more reliably. Also, many immunities target CC spell uniquely.

"If used with moderation..." is the key part of that. That looks to me like cutting back on the usage of mob CC is still key to resolving this as equitably as possible for both sets of opinions. Maybe keep the same effects, reduced chance of utilizing them compared to other options the mob has available.

[Calogrenant]

Dude, so tired of seeing developers ruin (or try to) otherwise good games.

Some months ago some genious pulled a george lucas and reduced swinging speed. They had to backpedal shortly afterwards, with the waste of resources it implied. Didn't they have at least one person in there telling them how stupid that change was? That nerfing something as crucial as combat speed right in the middle of a wave of new players was not a smart thing to do?

Now they're messing with crowd control. And what's the excuse? Dogs and air elementals.

So, who's the brilliant mastermind that thinks that two mobs are enough material to rethink the whole system?

I'm playing DDO online. If I wanted to play a game where charms and roots and enthrallments of any sort lasted what the developers wanted to instead of having serious and clear rules behind them, I'd be playing Everquest 1 or 2 or hell, any other game for the same reason.

So why turn it into those? Don't you developers appreciate or are proud of having made and maintained a game that's special in so many ways, that now you have to dumb it down to... normal? Turn it into what the other games are, one step at a time maybe?

This doesn't make any sense at all. What's coming up next? Gather X wolf tails-type quests, to appeal to the large brainless ex-wow kid masses?

Please, think about it again. Please do. Don't just send a couple friends in normal player accounts to try to convince us here in the forums. That's weak and unacceptable.

All you gotta do is to read this same thread, and notice all the very well described issues the system has, and remove it. Not that hard after all. If after 9 pages or so of feedback in a thread you created for that very same reason you still completely disregard our opinions, well, then just eliminate the feedback threads altogether. They're obviously useless.

Thank you, may you have a nice day.

[calvinklien]

By shortening the length of CC effects, you create a more unstable battlefield that keeps on changing.

see, that goes against everything a CC specialist is about though. Borroro i'm sorry friend, i've been following this thread closely and you seem to be biased to melee' builds. i hate to say it bud, but welcome to the world of magic!

the whole point in a suggestion/hypnotic specialist is this: When they step into the room, they can dominate your mind if they feel like spending SP on that task. You are revealed as the low willed creature that you actually are!

It's about will saves man! If your toon has crappy will saves, it has crappy will saves. make a toon that doesn't have crappy will saves if you don't like being mentally dominated. Once again, i repeat, if a true CC master steps onto the scene, your mind WILL get dominated, and it should be dominated according to the length in the spells description. and if a powerful enough creature steps onto the scene to dominate you into death, then so be it.

This means that strategies have to be reconsidered more frequently because players cannot just assume all will go as planned.

well, if there is a being in your party who can dominate minds and turn you into stone, then uh... yea, things are going to go smoothly. Welcome to the world of magic... if you can spend all your feats and abilities on hitting really hard without fail, then why cant i spend all my feats and abilities on domination without fail? the two work together, i dominate it, you chop it to bits. same goes for the badguys. one of them dominates me, the henchmen chop me up.

If used with moderation, CC will create more diverse fight that do not boil down to "the monster hits you really hard and the healer heals you" by forcing new events on us.

well, you're wrong. Instead, if heroic surge is implemented (as it behaves in the test server) then all fights will boil down to this: "Might as well not spend mana on CC's and just build a melee' dude cuz the only way we'll get through this dungeon is by killing every single creature." Your argument is... odd, for lack of a better word, Borror0.

On the other hand, too much crowd control is bad because it means the player can't make action. Waiting is not particularly fun. A short wait can be fun, as it leads to tension, but not being about to fight back while getting your ass kicked is not particularly fun.

aha. this is why you seem to me to be melee' biased.

a pure fighter running solo through a dungeon has NOTHING to loose from heroic surge and has EVERYTHING to gain from this "effect" as it means he will basically not have to rely on his AC/hps to make it through a long duration mind spell (which apparently wont exist if HS is implemented). However, a CC specialist has EVERYTHING to loose, and NOTHING to gain from this "effect."

just yesterday as i ran through the Orchard my little wizard got Greater Commanded and i got hacked to death. It was fine to me, i thought "Bah, that's what i get for having crappy will saves and running around by myself."

I respawned and got back out there figuring it will probably happen again, but that's what happens when you run around alone in a magical world. If you have crappy will saves you might just run into a very powerful magical being that can dominate your mind, crushing your weak will to fight back, and kill you.

I've got to give Heroic Surge (in it's current state) a big thumbs down. Also, i've never had a problem with air elementals and worgs. i either 1) whip out a bow of paralyzing with my ranger 2) skirt around them. I FoD worgs w/my wizard.

Never once have thought, "Sheesh, the game mechanics must be changed to deal w/air elementals and worgs!" not once. i have thought, while laying on me bumm, "Worgs suck..." but is every monster supposed to be a walk in the park? this is why your argument is so odd borror0, if you read back through your posts you seem to contradict yourself.

[zealous]

You claimed that long durations are necessary for crowd control to remain effective, I point out at other games that managed to have crowd control remain an effective tactics although their CC effects have a much shorter duration than CC effects do in DDO. The point was not to say we should copy them but rather to rebuke your claim that it would be impossible for CC spells to remain effective if the duration gets reduced.

What games are you pointing at?

To me it's apples to oranges, same as the combat system.

CC in pretty much every MMO i've played have been restricted to snares, roots, mezes and fears. Every snare similar to the other. Effects rarely being AoE. AoEs generally not being persistent. etc. etc.

More importantly in the other MMOs you generally have mana regen and spells to a larger extent being restricted by cd. You don't have to make the tradeoff between offence and cc on a even closely related magnitude. The rare possibilities of cc that exists can easily be woven into your nuking rotation.

And that's another difference. In other MMOs caster generally can nuke. In DDO though, disregarding endless WoF kiting, a caster can barely match the damage output of a high end melee and only for the scant time the mana can sustain going nova.

CC possibly being as you describe it in other MMOs doesn't imply that it's a good thing.

Less predictable fights. By shortening the length of CC effects, you create a more unstable battlefield that keeps on changing. This means that strategies have to be reconsidered more frequently because players cannot just assume all will go as planned. Considering that DDO's playerbase is said to be attracted to the "active" aspect of its combat, that's a straight gain.

If cc was currently overpowered that might be true, currently it isn't though. It requires build and twink dedication or trivial content to create a "stable" battlefield.

Shortening the length of CC might just as well push it down the useless bin and relegate casters to being useful to have a long to speed up blazing through the low levels.

[Arctigis]

What games are you pointing at?

To me it's apples to oranges, same as the combat system.

CC in pretty much every MMO i've played have been restricted to snares, roots, mezes and fears. Every snare similar to the other. Effects rarely being AoE. AoEs generally not being persistent. etc. etc.

More importantly in the other MMOs you generally have mana regen and spells to a larger extent being restricted by cd. You don't have to make the tradeoff between offence and cc on a even closely related magnitude. The rare possibilities of cc that exists can easily be woven into your nuking rotation.

And that's another difference. In other MMOs caster generally can nuke. In DDO though, disregarding endless WoF kiting, a caster can barely match the damage output of a high end melee and only for the scant time the mana can sustain going nova.

CC possibly being as you describe it in other MMOs doesn't imply that it's a good thing.


If cc was currently overpowered that might be true, currently it isn't though. It requires build and twink dedication or trivial content to create a "stable" battlefield.

Shortening the length of CC might just as well push it down the useless bin and relegate casters to being useful to have a long to speed up blazing through the low levels.

Again, +1.

What's the point in having rules and spell descriptions when in a lot of cases they will be meaningless.

[Arctigis]

It's not: in one case you cast a spell and the challenge is overcame; in the other, there has to be damage management, crowd control, healing, and damage given to defeat the mob. It's not possible to put them on an equal level as they are completely different.

That would be true if there was one class in DDO. There is not one class in DDO. Melee classes can chop 'em up,
Arcanes can nuke, insta-kill or CC. Surely you see the impact of this to players who have chosen to focus on the
latter? - I can't believe you'd be so obtuse not to.

That is what you are asking for when you say that there has to be other options other than killing monsters. Perhaps you simply meant that crowd control should retain usefulness but that's not how you had articulated your argument, if not only for the fact I already said CC spells should remain useful.

Don't go here again Borror0. You snipped out most of the entire paragraph where I articulated exactly what I
was referring to. CC spells should remain useful, I would say that domination/suggestion has transitioned from
being a useful approach to being a downright hazard with these proposals.