Crowd Control/Heroic Surge Feedback

[Mistinarperadnacles]

If the problem is new players having too difficult of time and you really feel the need to make it easier for them, as a last resort, give the players heroic surge capability in the casual difficulty setting and leave the normal-elite settings alone.

^ this!

Plus fixing any quests that are being "E" worded by cheese.

Job done.

Please, please let there be a dev post pops up saying they are reworking this. You did such a good job on reincarnation, reworking things until it was as right as you could reasonably get before shoving it out into the world, and you even fixed Dungeon Alert somewhat.

[Zenako]

Some more data on the mechanics from testing.

Used my Capped Wizard. Irestone Islet. Hobgoblin Cleric near the entrance.

On LIVE - on Elite Suggestion (DC= 35) Last for 4 Minutes for this caster) and the mobs were under suggestion pink hats for 4 minutes. (assume the same on lower settings)

On Lamannia

On Normal - CR 3 Hobgoblin Cleric - Suggestion lasted for (1:50, 2:40, 1:45, 2:55, 2:50, 3:05, 2:55, 2:55, 3:10 and 2:55). Or at least a 25% reduction sometimes a lot more.

On Hard - CR 5 Hobgoblin Cleric - Suggestion lasted for (1:30, 1:30, 1:25, 1:30, 1:35, 1:25, 1:30, 1:30, 1:25, and 1:30). Or around a 62% reduction.

On Elite - CR 8 Hobgoblin Cleric - Suggestion lasted for (1:00, 1:00, 1:00, 1:05, 0.55) or a 75% reduction in duration.

Suggestion normally has no recurring saving throw so all of those were due to Heroic Surges. On Elite, the Heroic Surge then lasted for around 10-15 seconds.

Also tried out Flesh to Stone.

On Hard Flesh to Stone broke (due to surges) in 1:30, 0:30, 0:40, 0:35 and 1:30

On Elite Flesh to Stone broke (due to surges) in 1:00, 1:00, 1:00, 1:00 and 1:00 almost like clockwork. This is with a CR8 Hobgoblin Cleric vs a DC33 Fort Save. All of the breaks were surges, since they target as immune to CC for a good 10 to 15 seconds after breaking.

Kiss effective CC goodbye.............


PS: I also tried out Disco Balls and while it is harder to get clean data, the reductions in time dancning was noticeable, as it also was with Hold Monster, but both of those allow periodic saves, so to get good data would require a LOT of testing...

[Ranmaru2]

Is there a dev that could chime in as to why Mobs are able to get a heroic surge while under the affects of a charm spell with "Dominate" in the title or under the effects of Flesh to Stone? Eladrin, I'm already going to say that there's no Freedom of Movement impeding fall through the earth (actually it would be float away since gravity is the impeding force) that can be brought up in this situation. The monster is a giant stone sculpture incapable of any sort of consciousness, and so are you when you get hit by Flesh to Stone. There is no reason these effects should be able to be hit by heroic surge.

edit: Include the dancing spells in this category as well, as they make your brain think the only thing you want to do is dance. No heroic surge is possible, your mind is completely dominated and telling you to dance (in DDO's case, Riverdance..)

[Shoal]

Some more data on the mechanics from testing.
...

Wow.

I don't think I've ever complained about any of the changes, because I thought, while I may not like some of them, I could adjust fairly easily. The results I'm seeing quoted here, though, are very disturbing -- I'm feeling anxiety just reading about the Heroic Surge mechanic. It's so difficult to CC effectively at high level already, which is fine, because it requires a focused effort, but these changes appear to remove all hope of effectively operating as a CC specialist.

[Shoal]

If this Heroic Surge is inevitable, maybe it would be interesting to classify CC spells into (at least) two categories -- one for those that impose and another for those that pacify. Those that pacify would actually mitigate a Heroic Surge, because the affected creature would be somehow content (think of bard music or hypno in contrast to hold and flesh to stone).

edit: Just noticed that this is similar to Ranmaru2's comments, with the exception of differences in spell classification.

[Arctigis]

If this Heroic Surge is inevitable, maybe it would be interesting to classify CC spells into (at least) two categories -- one for those that impose and another for those that pacify. Those that pacify would actually mitigate a Heroic Surge, because the affected creature would be somehow content (think of bard music or hypno in contrast to hold and flesh to stone).

edit: Just noticed that this is similar to Ranmaru2's comments, with the exception of differences in spell classification.

Why not just remove these spells from the game as they are now useless?. I was alarmed when I read about
the changes, I'm now seriously p***** after reading the test results. I'd really appreciate it if someone from
turbine would explain why these changes have been made. The consensus from all the posts I have read is that
these are not only unnecessary but also unwanted.

[Mjesko]

Some more data on the mechanics from testing...

Ouch that is a huge nerf to cc spells.

Perhaps heroic surges could work against melee attacks too. The dr of the monster could increase with every hit and after a few hits the monster is immune to melee attacks for 10 - 20 seconds.

[Shoal]

Why not just remove these spells from the game as they are now useless?. I was alarmed when I read about
the changes, I'm now seriously p***** after reading the test results. I'd really appreciate it if someone from
turbine would explain why these changes have been made. The consensus from all the posts I have read is that
these are not only unnecessary but also unwanted.

Yes, I would also like to know the rationale. It seems the change would further narrow the range of viable play styles, and I just cannot imagine what "problem" it could possibly solve.

[Gorbadoc]

I've never minded that Air Elementals have such an awesome disabling technique. What annoys me is that they can successfully spam it. For one reason or other, Air Eles should have to change tactics after a while, either because trip stops working or because the AI has them use some other nasty ability instead.

Actually, I have the same complaint about other overbearingly strong strategies. When I'm firewalling my way through a firewall-vulnerable dungeon, I should encounter the occasional fight where Firewall doesn't work, lest the dungeon get boring. Same with Fascinate, Mass Suggestion, and Paralyzers.

It's okay that these techniques work insanely well in certain content (or, in the Air Ele's case, that the technique works insanely well against certain character-types). The problem is when a single technique solves all of a character's problems.

[Zenako]

more testing....copied over my level 19 Spellsinger Bard to repeat some tests in Irestone.

On Live, On elite, Fascinate holds mobs under the notes for around 3:40, and then they break free. I assume everything works the same on Normal and Hard. Spells like Resistable dance have a 1:54 Duration on Live (no resave once fail the first) and they last for 1:54.

On Lamannia

On Normal on Lamannia - Fascinates are reduced to (3:00, 2:30 and 2:50) or about the same reduction seen for all spell with durations in excess of that.

On Hard on Lamannia - Fascinates are reduced to (1:30, 1:24, 1:30, 1:25 and 1:30) again the same reduction as seen for spells in the Wizard Test (I am only level 19 vs 20 for the wizard so some spells and effects have a slightly shorted intrinsic duration)

On Elite on Lamannia - Fascinates are reduced to (1:00, 0:55, 1:00, 1:00 and 1:00) again as seen for spells above.

Other things noted.

During Heroic Surges, Fearsome Armor counts as CC and is ignored. You cannot resong the mobs while they are under their Surge, and you see the Surge flash when you do.

HOWEVER, it also appears that Heroic Surges only seem to protect against the next CC effect you try and land, and then it expires. I was able to affect mobs after pelting them with effects, which burns SP or Songs respectively. For example, I could Resong the mobs if I sang right when it broke (consuming their surge) and then sing again and land it. So to accomplish the same CC I used to be able to do with one song for lets say 3 minutes, I now have to Sing, 1 minute, Sing Sing, 1 Minute and Sing Sing for the last minute. 5 Songs to do what one used to do. Spells appear to be about the same.

The Heroic surge can last for upwards of 20 seconds if you do not cast any CC at the mob, meaning that you cannot ignore them for a few and then pay attention, no one wants to give enemy mobs/casters 20+ seconds of free spell casting at the party.

more sigh.....

[InSoNiAc]

Thanks Zenako for giving us some real data to go on so we can stop speculating.

I copied my level 18 sorc over to Lamannia to test out how web had been effected by the new changes.

Stats:
Level 18 Drow Sorc
Cha: 34
Web DC (heightened): 32 - Inital reflex save followed by strength check every 2 seconds while in the web
Duration (from spells list): 56 seconds

Quest: Bonebite Hideout Elite

Monster: CR3 Kobold and CR5 Kobold Warrior
I selected these creatures and difficulty because I wanted heroic surges to occur (hence elite difficulty) but didn't want too many strength saves confusing the results. I trialled web on both standard CR3 Kobolds and CR5 Kobold Warriors with no appreciable difference.

Live: (10+ Trials)
The kobold was invariably caught in the web initially and would then go on to make strength checks. On every occassion the kobold broke free from the web at times ranging from 10 seconds upwards (I assume that a natural 20 on a strength check causes a save). After breaking free however I would kite the kobold back through the web at which point it would get caught again and would remain caught until the spell expired. Net result: 1 x break approximately every minute due to strength checks.

Lamannia: (10+ Trials)
On Lamannia the rate of strength saves seemed approximately the same. Heroic surges (as detected by the flash animation and shattering sound) occured regularly at intervals from 15 seconds upwards - one trial on a Kobold Warrior resulted in no strength save and no heroic surge for the full duration of the spell. As reported by Zenako heroic surge protects against the next CC effect and then expires. On occasion the Kobold would be caught immediately after I kited it back into the web but I assume that this was because the heroic surge had expired by the time I was able to get it back into the web. The typical pattern for each web was 1 strength save and 1 heroic surge followed by immunity. At most I observed 2 heroic surges per web. Net results: 3 x breaks every minute - 1 from strength, 1 from surge, 1 from immunity following surge.

Highly accurate durations on the average time before surge were difficult to obtain as I was trying to run, cast and operate a stopwatch at the same time. This experience does demonstrate however that web is certainly far less effective with heroic surge and also a lot more fiddley to manage.

[natakeu]

What can one truely say? It's been something that for some time now if it's on Lamannia then it's likely to be added into live servers reguardless of player feedback. Do I like what I am reading about with what other's have posted in thier tests? No I don't.

To be brutally honest when faced with what is possibly ahead and what we have. I would take what we have over the way this change is being implemented. Knowing about the worg's with thier insane trip's and the air elemental's abilities gave me as a player the knowledge to say: "hey! kill x monster first so you will have that happen least likely". It forced you to play smarter not harder, but I guess that doesn't matter since what I pay per month versus what the massive amount of new players pay per month is more.

From my point of view I stopped talking out about the things I felt were a bad idea, because, it seemed more of a contest of the masses speaking and someone at Turbine plugging thier ears and humming a song. So now I will just go back to being a spectator, since this is all the meager power I have to do.

[Mjesko]

more testing....copied over my level 19 Spellsinger Bard to repeat some tests in Irestone...

That is very interesting (+1 Rep) and sad. Have you tried another quest with a higher cr to see if it affects the duration of the spells, too?

I think it would be great if heroic surges would only apply for players and for monsters that currently have blanket immunities. That would improve cc spells instead of nerfing them and would make the game more fun for everyone, because cc spells support the party.

[Borror0]

Kiss effective CC goodbye.............

The durations you cited were all of one minute or more, which is still longer than the average mob's lifespan.

/snip

The name of Heroic Surge should be reviewed. Heroic has been used by Turbine to mean "an asymmetrical advantage given to players" and that does not describe Heroic Surge well since it's symmetrical (well, mostly anyway).

HOWEVER, it also appears that Heroic Surges only seem to protect against the next CC effect you try and land, and then it expires. [...] The Heroic surge can last for upwards of 20 seconds if you do not cast any CC at the mob

Weird behavior. It would make more sense to me to give total immunity, but for a shorter period of time (like 5s).

[DownClan]

Are you sure this isn't By Design? Make it sound like a buff for players, but it's really a nerf?

[Borror0]

Are you sure this isn't By Design? Make it sound like a buff for players, but it's really a nerf?

It's probably intended to be both.

"But how can that be Borror0? Why would a game designer want to nerf both players and monsters at the same time?"

Crowd control is good, because it makes the game something else other than a DPS fest by giving players something to do other than "Hit that monster really hard, for a lot of damage!" and by forcing players through a more diverse range of challenges than "You've been hit really hard by that monster, for a lot of damage."

However, too much crowd control is also bad. If a player is CC'd for too long, that just means he is standing there doing nothing until either time passes or until he dies. Neither situations are particularly fun since the player is waiting rather than playing. If a monster is CC'd for too long, then that monster is not representing a threat and that removes the tension that combat is supposed to create which is bad, too.

That's the two situations that this change is trying to prevent: monsters being CC'd for too long and players being CC'd for too long. If it does that while keeping crowd control spells worth playing, then it's successful. If either CC spells become close to useless or if either of players or monsters stay CC'd for too long, it fails at its goal.

[maddmatt70]

I am focusing more on the fascinate ability then some of the other affects of heroic surge, but I have for a long time felt that ability should be nerfed. It is overpowered and has likely led to higher will saves for the mobs. If fascinate, ottos irresistable dance and similiar virtually unsaveable affects get nerfed and subsequently mobs will saves get lowered so more will save spells land I am all for it. I do not understand how my max charisma focused cc spellsinger has basically the same cc abilities as my moderate charisma warchanter. If the devs intent was at all to rectify will saves for mobs I think they are on the right track where I have a problem is nerfing the air elementals and dog trip attacks. Without danger DDO becomes less exciting - air elementals and dogs bring a level of danger to DDO that it needs to be more fun.

[Electrra]

Wouldn't it have made more sense (more efficient, more logical) to just fix the air elementals?

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

Yeah, insta-kill spells need a fix too, they are over-powered. I suggest mobs get a chance to be raised to full health if they have been killed by a death spell. And if they've been banished they should have a chance to be sent back at full health.

OH! And you guys can word it as a "fix" for players by saying that any player who gets banished/insta-killed now has a chance to return to the dungeon at full health! YAY TOD!!! (and...murmer, murmer, murmer, the monsters get this too...)

Have it ready for, say, Update 4? Maybe 5, just enough time for all the CC casters to re-spec to necromancy and the Bards to re-roll as Rangers.

Actually, maybe just give all Bards on all servers a free re-roll somehow and just remove Bards from the game altogether. I mean they aren't even in 4.0 right! Yeah, Bards need to go. Do it up! It's what the players want...

[Mannyfrez]

Wow.. all my work of rerolling bards to find the right mix of melee and CC will now be in vain..
Bard..delete