Crowd Control/Heroic Surge Feedback

[Mjesko]

On normal CC (Hold, Suggestion, Flesh to Stone, etc) with a nominal 4 minute duration tended to bust after 3 minutes or so. Spells like Irrestiable Dance were similarly shortened around 20-25% in duration.

On thing noted, is that once a mob heroic Surges, they are IMMUNE to other crowd control effects until the surge wears off. So they are free to chase, cast spells, etc and cannot be affected.

Went in on EPIC and checked. Was able to land the spells pretty reliably (Have Heighten, and Spell Focus Enchantment and Greater Spell Focus Enchantment on this capped pure Wizard ) on the trolls, BUT, they were breaking out in about 30 seconds or less (and even quicker on Otto's) making CC all but pointless, given the Spell Point cost. They almost seemed to be under Heroic Surge as long as they were CC'd.

I hoped that at least on normal cc spells would work as they should, but its sad to read that even on this difficulty their effects have been reduced. I think arcane casters have in most cases two purposes now: nuke or buff, which takes a lot of fun out of the game, but fits perfect to the boring monster design (immunities, insane hp) of the epic difficulty.

[Ereshkigal]

Just gona chime in to say I hate it.

Not a fan of dumbing down the game.

Yet this post is a waste as im fully aware the casual that don't care about gameplay or challenge and just want the loot for free are the ones that pay the bills and not me, not the hardcores.

Just seems totally against the theme of the game and destroys the purpose of many spells.

Ex: Otto's iresistable dance.. Not irresistable anymore, What the ****?
Even tested it out.. Max duration: 1 minuit.. Yet that's a lie, heroic surge is 100% guarenteed after 30 seconds, so the spell no longer functions, it's just broken.

Meh. No use complaining, it's done. Nothing will come of this feedback. Nothing ever does, whats on lamannia is what goes on live, this is a truth all Veteran players understand.

I share your sentiments.

[Angelus_dead]

I suggest that certain dungeons (or even specific rooms) have monster Heroic Surge disabled: Xorian Cipher, Burning Heart, and etc.

[Shassa]

I suggest that certain dungeons (or even specific rooms) have monster Heroic Surge disabled: Xorian Cipher, Burning Heart, and etc.

Ah, good point. Although, I'd say the chances of them making exceptions like this are about nil.
Especially when there's always gold contract hirelings that can get around this problem. :P

[SimVerg]

Here's a pretty serious problem I noticed on Epic. When a heroic surge occurs seems unrelated to the duration of the CC effect. This means that long effects(Fascinate) get broken in pretty much the same time as short effects(Dance). There are ostensibly balance reasons why long CC effects are long and short CC effects are short. Causing them to have the same effective duration negates that balance.

[Arctigis]

I'll also add my voice to the common opinion on this thread of intensely disliking these changes (I'd like to
say proposed changes but I really think they are here to stay). I was concerned when I read about the changes, I'm
now more concerned reading other players feedback after witnessing these changes in effect.
I just find it inconceivable that someone considered it a good idea to completely neuter listed spell affects. Can
someone point to me where this was explained as being a necessary and/or called for change?

IMO, the following would have been sufficient:

1) Don't allow debuff effects (spells, trip, knockdown etc.) to be reapplied until the current timer has expired.
2) Allow, say, three seconds of immunity before an effect can be reapplied.
3) Sort out the collision detection - Air elemental trip effect appears to be ranged.
4) Bring back real-time combat (I'm sick of dodging attacks to only be hit by them (even though I'm 30 feet
away) or being hit by spells cast from dead casters).

I'll settle for 1 and 2 ;-).

Why tinker with this when there are real bugs outstanding? why?

I mean, giving Irresistible dance a save or allowing a 'heroic surge' to break it - come on!
FtS already allowed a periodic (60 second) reoccurring save - why nerf it further?

[Arctigis]

Here's a pretty serious problem I noticed on Epic. When a heroic surge occurs seems unrelated to the duration of the CC effect. This means that long effects(Fascinate) get broken in pretty much the same time as short effects(Dance). There are ostensibly balance reasons why long CC effects are long and short CC effects are short. Causing them to have the same effective duration negates that balance.

Yes, I agree. I'm struggling to see how any thought was put into this at all.

[Sarr]

Yes, I agree. I'm struggling to see how any thought was put into this at all.

I guess that's why it's on test sever and there's no date for Update 3 yet. Let's just help them tweak it right.

[Favis]

Here's a pretty serious problem I noticed on Epic. When a heroic surge occurs seems unrelated to the duration of the CC effect. This means that long effects(Fascinate) get broken in pretty much the same time as short effects(Dance).

That is strange.

[Calogrenant]

Some ask why do this change?

The answer is simple, and is common to all mmorpgs.

It's called the George Lucas syndrome. It consists in an uncontrollable urge to fix something that isn't broken, to add stuff nobody requested, and to leave everything that's broken around as if those things didn't exist to begin with.

Must admit it's not as serious with Turbine though, they do add interesting content and tend to fix some things... every now and then at least, as opposed to most companies.

Still, it'd be great if they payed attention on this one. It's quite an important one.

Cheers

[Mistinarperadnacles]

Seems that the real reason for monster heroic surges and immunity to crwod cotnrols is a thinly veiled blanket immunity.

Already any spellcasting class has been nerfed many times with monsters having:

* So many hitpoints that spell damage is vastly reduced.
* Wards and immunities make a swathe of available spells completely ineffective.
* High monster saving throws further reduce viability of anything with a save.
* Anything that avoids killing Every Single Mob In The Dungeon is removed.

Just go the whole hog and be done with it. Remove any non direct damage spell so we can all True Reincarnate as fighters or identikit fire/ice sorcerers.


There are better ways to deal with those few players who develop cheese and blast through dungeons Irresistable Dancing everything in sight and repeating ad infinitum with game flaws and farming themselves a few hundred epic tokens/loot/xp (Or whatever real issue has got your beef in a twist.) You don't need to dress it up as a boon to the players to fix the long standing Air Elemental and Dog issues (that it doesn't even fix... )

Making monsters more immune to anything serves only one purpose: to remove that element from the game. Builds based around that element will no longer be able to effectively contribute as much, and as a direct result will be less fun to play and will be less welcome in groups.

Thanks. My thinking characters salute you. I'll go play my simplistic button mashing ones and watch a movie while I play...

I love that Devs are interested in improving the game, but the USP of DDO:U is that it does not solely consist of Bash Monster With Stick > Get Loot > Repeat. Invisibilty, hide & move silently, charm, fascinate, hold, stun, command, debuff, avoid. Why so against these things? Sure there are those "E" words that crop up with these tactics, but taking a sledgehammer to it is just poor.

If there are issues with particular monsters, fix that. If a you feel a spell is so broken it only gets used for "E" words, then remove it or change it. Please stop adding blanket immunities and nerfs and silly 4E stuff.

Thanks for your continued efforts and hard work and for asking for feedback. Sorry it can't be more positive for this one.

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

Looks like the genius behind grazing hits is at it again. Seriously, this just reeks of being the spell version of grazing hits, doesn't it???

How long before licensing gets pulled and this game will have to be renamed? Because this (as well as grazing hits) has absolutely nothing to do with D&D.

And as for the genius mentioned earlier, is he/she related to the Turbine CEO or something? Surely all you good folks who work on this game must see that this heroic surge business is nothing but a massive pile of BS. Maybe there's nothing you can do because of the wingnut in a position of power who is pushing it... If so, you have my sympathies.

EDIT: Just to avoid confusion, I meant "genius" in a completely and utterly sarcastic way...

[ieatogres]

So, a level 20 enchantment focused wizard can dominate a level 1 monster for about 30 seconds.... Nice change. Please do not override the DnD save system with a dumbed down random roll not even based on charater or monster stats.

[geoffhanna]

I hoped that at least on normal cc spells would work as they should, but its sad to read that even on this difficulty their effects have been reduced. I think arcane casters have in most cases two purposes now: nuke or buff, which takes a lot of fun out of the game, but fits perfect to the boring monster design (immunities, insane hp) of the epic difficulty.

No you cannot nuke on epic. You will be out of mana on the first fight.

I don't like that I am posting a negative on something I haven't personally tested. Yet, CC and debuffs are really hard to use effectively as it is.

Anything that makes them even less useful pretty much removes an entire playstyle.

[SimVerg]

No you cannot nuke on epic. You will be out of mana on the first fight.

I don't like that I am posting a negative on something I haven't personally tested. Yet, CC and debuffs are really hard to use effectively as it is.

Anything that makes them even less useful pretty much removes an entire playstyle.

Uh, the standard way to run epic is kite through fw until weighted stun procs...

[Emili]

Yes, I agree. I'm struggling to see how any thought was put into this at all.

be a developers and designers plight... a good one looks at what all is under effect while some others tend to do good work but never quite viewed it within the whole picture.

[BoBoDaClown]

You should be buffing CC, not 'nerfing' it.

There is already a large section of players who argue that a CC build is a gimped waste of time.

We need more reasons to play non-dps toons like CC builds and inimitanks, not less.

[dopey69]

I guess that's why it's on test sever and there's no date for Update 3 yet. Let's just help them tweak it right.

this will come the way it is! no matter what is said in this thread . It is a shame that stuff that needs twinking in this game is not fixed ,yet stuff like this that gimps your toon is done all the time. Why turbine ? Why ?. I say now that you have ruined my spellsinger you should give me enough reincarnates to change her class for free. Gah.... to say the least I am very dissapointed in these changes .*scratches head* WHY? ruin a compleate class ? I guess hould have takin the extra strength needed for power attack (currently 2 short) at least then i could have redone enhancements for the warchanter line but no i didn't think that far ahead into the possible gimmping that turbine might roll out in three years time sad sad sad

[Sarr]

this will come the way it is! no matter what is said in this thread . It is a shame that stuff that needs twinking in this game is not fixed ,yet stuff like this that gimps your toon is done all the time. Why turbine ? Why ?. I say now that you have ruined my spellsinger you should give me enough reincarnates to change her class for free. Gah.... to say the least I am very dissapointed in these changes .*scratches head* WHY? ruin a compleate class ? I guess hould have takin the extra strength needed for power attack (currently 2 short) at least then i could have redone enhancements for the warchanter line but no i didn't think that far ahead into the possible gimmping that turbine might roll out in three years time sad sad sad

You know, I REALLY want to believe you're only joking. Uhh.. aah... ok, no "smart" comments .

Why Turbine, why?
QQ

Well, at least I tried!

But you're all wrong. I've read this thread, and I know for sure. It's a conspiracy! I know for a fact, that it's Chinese government using Turbine to take over all of the Eberron, while promising them high revenues from sales of leveling sigils! (yes, officially Turbine removes them in Update 3, but remember - it's all conspiracy of evil, greedy Nerfers!).

[ieatogres]

I tested this change with my enchantment focused (both enchantment feats taken and +1 enchantment item), 33 Int, level 19 wizard in "Dirk Got a Secret" and "The Butchers Path". A level 19 enchantment focused bard/wizard/sorc should be able to crowd control anything at this lower level without any problems. I tried 3 different difficulty settings.

Casual: I never even saw the heroic surge work at this setting. I was easily able to charm and domate mobs for many minutes. They would eventually roll a 20 and save, but it took quite a long time.

Normal: After about 1-2 minutes I saw the heroic surge effect. I was unable to re-control these level 1 mobs for about 10-20 seconds due to this new effect (for a level 19 caster to not be able to control level 2 mobs is pretty darn sad and a complete break from DnD rules). At this rate this will almost completely break the Dominate Monster and Dominate Person; why should I cast these spells anymore when I can only keep them active long enough to drag the mobs a little ways away into another fight and them have them pop with heroic surge. If I did this on high end mobs I would only anger the party for dragging more mobs into the fight that could no longer be crowd controlled.

Elite: Same as Normal above except the mobs would break in about 30 seconds. Again, this makes many crowd control spells nearly useless.

I would also like to ask "Why is this change being implemented?" It seems that all it does is gimp casters on both the mobs and players side in an overall effort to dumb down this game into the DPS fest that other MMOs are built on. Many of the original players attraction to DDO has been that this game is based on complex rules with strengths and weakness that make up each class and build instead of the simple balance of DPS rates versus defense capability that make up most other MMOs. I understand that you have many new players that may not understand why they are getting held for 30 seconds at a time, but please don't break our game because they don't understand it. Do a better job of teaching them the rules and implement the lesser and greater reincarnation system so they can fix their broken characters.

If the problem is new players having too difficult of time and you really feel the need to make it easier for them, as a last resort, give the players heroic surge capability in the casual difficulty setting and leave the normal-elite settings alone.