Crowd Control/Heroic Surge Feedback

[Arctigis]

Level ****ing 6 quest monsters are busting out of endgame wizard DCs that quickly?

This sums it up for me.

[Arctigis]

One quick&dirty fix vs many, many monsters, spells and abilities to fix. Whats easier?

I think I can see a pattern emerging here.....

[Zenako]

Well, I like doing so in more than just Tor... Man, that's complete balls! Really? Level ****ing 6 quest monsters are busting out of endgame wizard DCs that quickly?

I just went from being somewhat ambivalent about this change to absolutely loathing it! ****!

Well a lot of mobs have decent CON, hence decent Fort Saves, which is what can make spells that target fort (which tend to be save or die) often harder to land. So if you assume for example that the mobs had +15 Fort save, (not that hard to imagine) since many have inflated CON to give them HP. That would mean a DC 33 Kill spell would kill them 85% of the time. Mobs do save on Fort fairly often. Well now land the FtS and if you give them another save every few seconds, it does not take long for them to get an 18 or higher on the d20 to break out. The old rule was they got one save every minute, so if you landed the spell, you had a known full minute to work with. Same thing with lots of players, they can make the save against FtS, its just that it might take a few d20 rolls to hit the number needed. It became noteable with the intervals of saves being a minute. With it being a few seconds, it is hardly more of an inconvience than getting tripped is.

[sephiroth1084]

Well a lot of mobs have decent CON, hence decent Fort Saves, which is what can make spells that target fort (which tend to be save or die) often harder to land. So if you assume for example that the mobs had +15 Fort save, (not that hard to imagine) since many have inflated CON to give them HP. That would mean a DC 33 Kill spell would kill them 85% of the time. Mobs do save on Fort fairly often. Well now land the FtS and if you give them another save every few seconds, it does not take long for them to get an 18 or higher on the d20 to break out. The old rule was they got one save every minute, so if you landed the spell, you had a known full minute to work with. Same thing with lots of players, they can make the save against FtS, its just that it might take a few d20 rolls to hit the number needed. It became noteable with the intervals of saves being a minute. With it being a few seconds, it is hardly more of an inconvience than getting tripped is.

Uh, yeah?

That's all fairly elementary. Not sure why we needed the breakdown...I understand how the change functions...I just hadn't given it much thought in context. Still, if you can land FtS regularly on a monster, that usually meant at least a few minutes before they broke free. Now, even those creatures are likely breaking out in relatively short order.

So, again, ****ING BALLS!

[Zenako]

Uh, yeah?

That's all fairly elementary. Not sure why we needed the breakdown...I understand how the change functions...I just hadn't given it much thought in context. Still, if you can land FtS regularly on a monster, that usually meant at least a few minutes before they broke free. Now, even those creatures are likely breaking out in relatively short order.

So, again, ****ING BALLS!

Sorry if it came off as lecturing, but some posters in the thread didn't seem to get it, so I was explaining what was happening. Most high level CC casters know what is what and how things work, but players who focus on melee builds are often not as clear on the concept from my experience in the game.

Its just seems to be a really ill thought out change with ramifications across the board that were not carefully considered it appears. The number of times a Character will be saved from a CC is going to be small compared to the number of times mobs will be busting free across the board now. Much like the whole grazing hits phenomena seemed to stem from disgruntled players who did not read the rules or have a clue and failing to succeed because of that, not because the game was too hard.

Well the bleep hits the fan soon.

[sephiroth1084]

Sorry if it came off as lecturing, but some posters in the thread didn't seem to get it, so I was explaining what was happening. Most high level CC casters know what is what and how things work, but players who focus on melee builds are often not as clear on the concept from my experience in the game.

Its just seems to be a really ill thought out change with ramifications across the board that were not carefully considered it appears. The number of times a Character will be saved from a CC is going to be small compared to the number of times mobs will be busting free across the board now. Much like the whole grazing hits phenomena seemed to stem from disgruntled players who did not read the rules or have a clue and failing to succeed because of that, not because the game was too hard.

Well the bleep hits the fan soon.

Fair enough, Zen. I think that your using my quote to springboard the explanation is what grated on me.

You're absolutely correct that this change (and the grazing hits) will have some unforeseen (I imagine) results, due to the dramatic difference in how they function on either side of the us and them division. As it is, I never understood the need for the grazing hits, or at least not the way they were presented initially (a way to make missing often less irritating). I do think the system can, and should, be used to make a wider range of monster ACs available for a greater variety of challenges, and also in emphasizing a benefit of using shields, to further differentiate S&B AC characters from Dex/Wis AC characters, but it doesn't seem like design has fully integrated those functions of the system into quests.

[Zenako]

Just for info I went out / back to Lamannia tonight to check out some things. At least on the Lamannia build it appears that not only has HS been turned off, but that the reduced Save frequency on spells like FtS and Suggestion/Dominate have also gone away. Was able to consistently have those spells last the 4 minutes one expects. This was a combination of testing on the same poor suckers in house D Depths quests on the Elite Setting that were busting free quickly a few weeks ago, and on some of the random explorer area mobs in GH (Orcs, Shaman, Gnolls and Giants.). Now if the game build coming tomorrow matches the game build on Lamannia I saw tonight, then all of the duration changes I was so concerned about seem to be have been put on hold. Just a heads up....there is hope...since we only got told that HS was on ice, it looks like more changes also went into the penalty box, at least on Lamannia.

fingers crossed..

[Borror0]

I don't have Lamannia installed at the moment (needed room) but are the changes to other spells there?

I'm talking thing like Hypnotism lasting longer, Curse having a maximum duration ,etc.

[Zenako]

I don't have Lamannia installed at the moment (needed room) but are the changes to other spells there?

I'm talking thing like Hypnotism lasting longer, Curse having a maximum duration ,etc.

Ill go check.

(PS they have made some changes to the layout of the Ice Games since the first build I saw as well...might not be quite as daunting as jumps as they were at first in the harbor...)

[Zenako]

Curse is listed as a Max Duration of 7 min 40 seconds on my Wizard with Extend going. It lasted that long on CH Orcs (CR1 types). FtS lasted about 4 minutes as well.

Hypnotism is listed with a variable duration from 16 Seconds to 2 min 40 seconds.

CR1 Mobs broke out between those times.

Turns out that Extend has no effect on Bestow Curse....it was 7:40 with or without it on. Other metas like Heighten do apply.

[Zenako]

Interesting...

Ottos Resistable Dance (2nd level spell) lasts for 2 minutes no save IF you land it.
and it has a decent casting range.

Ottos Irresistable Dance (8th level spell) lasts for 24 seconds to 1 minute ( and that seems accurate) and has a very short casting range (ie touch). Looks like in many cases it will make more sense to cast a Meta'd up 2nd level spell than the 8th level variation...

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Now if the game build coming tomorrow matches the game build on Lamannia I saw tonight, then all of the duration changes I was so concerned about seem to be have been put on hold. Just a heads up....there is hope...since we only got told that HS was on ice, it looks like more changes also went into the penalty box, at least on Lamannia.

fingers crossed..

Really?? My fingers will remain crossed. This is very good news if true.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Interesting...

Ottos Resistable Dance (2nd level spell) lasts for 2 minutes no save IF you land it.
and it has a decent casting range.

Ottos Irresistable Dance (8th level spell) lasts for 24 seconds to 1 minute ( and that seems accurate) and has a very short casting range (ie touch). Looks like in many cases it will make more sense to cast a Meta'd up 2nd level spell than the 8th level variation...

Much of my CC life as a wizard and a bard my thought process has been using lowest possible CC necessary to get the job done... with the goal being mana conservation of course.

I am quite a bit upset about the multiple Irresistible Dance nerfs. Im upbeat tonight though... lets see how it goes tomorrow...

[Xyfiel]

Much of my CC life as a wizard and a bard my thought process has been using lowest possible CC necessary to get the job done... with the goal being mana conservation of course.

I am quite a bit upset about the multiple Irresistible Dance nerfs. Im upbeat tonight though... lets see how it goes tomorrow...

I am more worried about the servers coming up, and without a major bug at this point.
Rollbacks should only happen at Walmart!

[sephiroth1084]

Interesting...

Ottos Resistable Dance (2nd level spell) lasts for 2 minutes no save IF you land it.
and it has a decent casting range.

Ottos Irresistable Dance (8th level spell) lasts for 24 seconds to 1 minute ( and that seems accurate) and has a very short casting range (ie touch). Looks like in many cases it will make more sense to cast a Meta'd up 2nd level spell than the 8th level variation...

That's weird. Irresistible will still be more useful in the content where you really want to be casting it (Epic, Amrath), simply because their saves are high enough that having a no-save option is worthwhile.

By the way, thanks for doing the legwork on this!

[Junts]

Interesting...

Ottos Resistable Dance (2nd level spell) lasts for 2 minutes no save IF you land it.
and it has a decent casting range.

Ottos Irresistable Dance (8th level spell) lasts for 24 seconds to 1 minute ( and that seems accurate) and has a very short casting range (ie touch). Looks like in many cases it will make more sense to cast a Meta'd up 2nd level spell than the 8th level variation...

this is not a change, this is how long irresistable has always lasted.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

this is not a change, this is how long irresistable has always lasted.

Irresistible Dance was certainly nerfed since its initiation. Monsters with a very high spell resistance were given the ability to resist it... thus making it resistible. Then, blanket immunities made matters worse. A CC specced build had little trouble landing it tho to non immune monsters. I thought that the duration was shortened via reoccurring saves, as stated in the current release notes. I'll have to test it when I can get into game. 24 secs to a minute doesnt sound that far off tho, so yeah might be a non issue.

[Zenako]

this is not a change, this is how long irresistable has always lasted.

Agreed, more just an observation made while checking out the whole range of CC spells last night. Struck me as interesting. I also agree that landing a CC on EPIC might well take more than one cast, making the no save version (if you can get close enough) superior.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

By the way, thanks for doing the legwork on this!

I second that notion! Big ups to Zen for stepping up and putting all these proposed changes into perspective for the community at large.

[Junts]

Agreed, more just an observation made while checking out the whole range of CC spells last night. Struck me as interesting. I also agree that landing a CC on EPIC might well take more than one cast, making the no save version (if you can get close enough) superior.

Also keep in mind that otto's resistable has repeated saves to break free, like dancing sphere. Its almost never in practice longer than irresistable, which is why almost every lowbie mob that casts 'resistable dance' in practice casts irresistable (at level 5).

Even mobs like Deadheart the Unbeaten always cast irresistable dance.