Crowd Control/Heroic Surge Feedback

[ieatogres]

This entire system is another poor deviation from the base rules that make crowd control caster less effective than they should be. Please do not make this change. The only fix that needs to be appied to the game is the Air Elementals save rate needs to be reduced to something reasonable.

[Horrorscope]

Ex: Otto's irresistible dance.. Not irresistible anymore, What the ****?
Even tested it out.. Max duration: 1 minute.. Yet that's a lie, heroic surge is 100% guaranteed after 30 seconds, so the spell no longer functions, it's just broken.

For my knowledge what can you land this on that last over 30 seconds in combat?

[Zenako]

For my knowledge what can you land this on that last over 30 seconds in combat?

There are numerous fights where the mobs would just respawn if outright killed, where they can be neutralized this way instead. Much like the FtS method can be employed. Agreed, that if you are just killing them, it does not make that much of a difference.

[Cyr]

For my knowledge what can you land this on that last over 30 seconds in combat?

EPIC...or go up a few posts in the thread and see the same thing.

[joneb1999]

The only thing I found when I started playing this game that was really crazy and badly implemented in reference to monsters / npc enemies is how they seem to have a constant amount of mana and their abilities have no real timers like the actual players have. Dont dumb skills down but just apply some sort of logic so that creatures abilities have cooldown times the same way a player character ability has.

[Sarr]

The only thing I found when I started playing this game that was really crazy and badly implemented in reference to monsters / npc enemies is how they seem to have a constant amount of mana and their abilities have no real timers like the actual players have. Dont dumb skills down but just apply some sort of logic so that creatures abilities have cooldown times the same way a player character ability has.

Hmm, I'm pretty sure that's the way it is - monsters have the same cooldowns as players. Of course I could be wrong, but I never really noticed such weirdness during those 3 years of playing .

[fuzzy1guy]

Anything that makes us team together (even with strangers and/or noobs) is a good thing.

Air elementals are a good example. There should be someone around who can kill it in some way while it knocks you around the room. They don't really hurt you that much. Trip is their combat skill. They're not even difficult to kill, just annoying. Almost anyone can kill them with any sort of range attack or spell.

DnD is a group game. It brings people together.

Theres too much soloing in ddo... a MULTIPLAYER game. If you're going to solo everything... Why are you even online at all? Fire up a single player game and solo away in something geared to solo play.

Imho there should be just enough solo content available for each level area that you have a VERY small choice of things you can do alone. Like 5% of the game. (not counting outside areas with slayer) Or less. Enough you can go solo if you just want a little quick xp or a small ammount of cash while waiting for friends or a group you like the looks of to show up.


I'd like to see 5x the number of LFM's up that i do now for any given level range. And any sort of odd thing in a quest that requires us to group up and work together for a common goal is a good thing.

Air elementals fit the bill well. Don't run into them solo... They'll knock you down.. So bring help. heh.

[Sarr]

Anything that makes us team together (even with strangers and/or noobs) is a good thing.

Air elementals are a good example. There should be someone around who can kill it in some way while it knocks you around the room. They don't really hurt you that much. Trip is their combat skill. They're not even difficult to kill, just annoying. Almost anyone can kill them with any sort of range attack or spell.

DnD is a group game. It brings people together.

Theres too much soloing in ddo... a MULTIPLAYER game. If you're going to solo everything... Why are you even online at all? Fire up a single player game and solo away in something geared to solo play.

Imho there should be just enough solo content available for each level area that you have a VERY small choice of things you can do alone. Like 5% of the game. (not counting outside areas with slayer) Or less. Enough you can go solo if you just want a little quick xp or a small ammount of cash while waiting for friends or a group you like the looks of to show up.


I'd like to see 5x the number of LFM's up that i do now for any given level range. And any sort of odd thing in a quest that requires us to group up and work together for a common goal is a good thing.

Air elementals fit the bill well. Don't run into them solo... They'll knock you down.. So bring help. heh.

I think I agree with your reasoning. Though, I like new "Casual" difficulty, as it's obviously more group friendly than old "Solo" diff . So I think Devs care about our LFMs.

Changes with CC and Heroic Surge - are to my liking as well. And all that only expands what you wrote, as I'm not afraid that Update 3 will threaten LFMs - it can even help, I guess.

Rep to you, it takes some courage to write some things.

[geoffhanna]

I think ultimately this hurts bards more than it helps anyone.

Meh.

All I really get to use my bard for is songs anyway. :-\

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

I think ultimately this hurts bards more than it helps anyone.

Meh.

All I really get to use my bard for is songs anyway. :-\

Has it been determined on Lam if Fascinated and song Suggested baddies get the heroic surge or not? Has anyone tested this?

I realize you are referring to Bard spells and not the CC songs, but I would like to know this as I use fascinate on my Bards ALOT when soloing and this would impact things in a poor way, IMHO.

[Harncw]

This heroic surge reads like a kludge / band aid to me.
You guys need another drawing board.

[Sarr]

This heroic surge reads like a kludge / band aid to me.
You guys need another drawing board.

This system is present and works well in most other MMOs. Anyway, overlapping "debuffs" shouldn't exist in the first place, if I remember D&D 3.5e well.

[Cyr]

This system is present and works well in most other MMOs. Anyway, overlapping "debuffs" shouldn't exist in the first place, if I remember D&D 3.5e well.

This has nothing to do with debuffs. It has everything to do with crowd control.

As designed it will result in a degradation in the utility and usefulness of bards, sorcs, and wizards in top end play.

It matters very little in low end play where stuff dies right away and matters almost not at all against elementals. Who cares if after 30 seconds of sitting on your butt you get to stand up and take a few swings before they get to knock you over again? Oh and the air elemental excuse is just that. If they wanted to fix air elementals they could do so in a targeted manner that did not effect a wide variety of skills, spells, classes, monsters, or strategies in the game at the same time.

[InSoNiAc]

I trialled heroic surge against the Stormreaver on Lamania with my ranger. In the case of Air Elemental knockdown vs player the difference seemed negligible. I had one surge after the first lot of elementals spawned. It lasted at most 10 seconds and then I was knocked down and killed. Hence, this particular reason for implementing the change seems unwarranted.

I don't have a high level bard so I was unable to test how heroic surge functions with fascinated / charmed / held enemies but I intend to do some tests with my caster.

The main concern that I have at the moment, which has been mentioned elsewhere previously, is that this change will be the final step in the complete neutralization of high level crowd control for bards, wizards and sorcerors. Due to blanket immunities and inflated saves at end-game, crowd control and other strategic options are already extremely limited. Bards have taken the brunt of recent immunity introductions with their only remaining high level CC spell being irresistable dance. If I understand the proposed changes correctly, when irresistable dance is cast creatures will now get periodic saves similar to web and hold-monster. If they fail their saves long enough they will then have a heroic surge which frees them from the effect.

The new introduction of recurring saves and heroic surge coupled with the pre-existing charm, instant death, and stat-damage immunities will funnel players once again towards the DPS beatdown as the only viable strategy.

Personally, what makes the game entertaining for me are the wide variety of tactics that can be employed by utilising the unique abilities of each class. At low levels we see bards saving party wipes by fascinating caverns full of monsters while they heal their fellow adventurers. Wizards and sorcerors can use a variety of spells to hold, fear or charm undead. Clerics and paladins can (in very limited situations) avoid battles with undead altogether by turning or outright destroying them.

Wouldn't high level encounters be richer if, for example, the ranger in the group could incapacitate a group of orthons with a snare while the rogue laid down some stunning or damage traps (NWN style) for a the next encounter around the corner?

In summary, we have an already great game which I hope will continue to evolve and be refined. Future development should be aimed and improving the player experience by allowing multiple options for dealing with each encounter rather than placing cumbersome and artificial restrictions on the tactics available.

[Favis]

As designed it will result in a degradation in the utility and usefulness of bards, sorcs, and wizards in top end play.
.

I fear that the Heroic Surge will make Charm and Dominate spells against monsters even less useful, because they will faster break free from the spell, esp. on higher difficulties. That makes cc casters less useful on higher difficulties, which is a bad idea in my opinion.

Agree it's bad of CC players and CC is one of the most fun part in the game.

Hint, it starts with Air and ends with Elementals...

I agree as well, as far as I am concerned all they had to do to 'fix' wolves and air elementals is add timers to their abilities (trip and going into whirlwind form), problem solved.

Yes.
Or they can do so the change only works when the spells are cast against players.
As the reason for the change was to make player happy that was make player less frustrated not beeing triped multiple time in a row etc,
not making players more frustrated becource they can't land there CC spells are weakened.

[Ponza69]

awaits more Virt h8t

[Zenako]

Ok went out and tried out some CC on various settings.

Used Von 3a with easy to get at trolls.

On normal CC (Hold, Suggestion, Flesh to Stone, etc) with a nominal 4 minute duration tended to bust after 3 minutes or so. Spells like Irrestiable Dance were similarly shortened around 20-25% in duration.

On thing noted, is that once a mob heroic Surges, they are IMMUNE to other crowd control effects until the surge wears off. So they are free to chase, cast spells, etc and cannot be affected.

Went in on EPIC and checked. Was able to land the spells pretty reliably (Have Heighten, and Spell Focus Enchantment and Greater Spell Focus Enchantment on this capped pure Wizard ) on the trolls, BUT, they were breaking out in about 30 seconds or less (and even quicker on Otto's) making CC all but pointless, given the Spell Point cost. They almost seemed to be under Heroic Surge as long as they were CC'd.

Now granted this was limited testing, but it really indicates that CC is being affected in a REAL BIG way, making it all but pointless in many instances. It can buy a few moments to KILL all the mobs, but that is all it is doing.

Not real happy with what it is doing to a whole rack of spells....sigh

[CrimsonEagle]

Just gona chime in to say I hate it.

Meh. No use complaining, it's done. Nothing will come of this feedback. Nothing ever does, whats on lamannia is what goes on live, this is a truth all Veteran players understand.

Yep

[Calogrenant]

I definitely have to add something here.

One of the most important reasons I play ddo is the following one: The rules are clear. And even better, they're based on a pnp game. These days this means you can even browse the rules online.

Yes, there're limitless mana or overinflated monsters which make spells like the power words utterly useless. But that's fine, we can cope with that.

In other games, for instance, both everquest 1&2, rules aren't clear. Not even in your own LOTRO are. It reflects in situations that end up looking like what a lousy GM would do when directing a dnd module. Magically pulling stuff outta their armpits or something whenever the **** hits the fan, trying to fix something they actually end up turning into something way worse. Deus ex Machina & alikes.

In this game, however, you got certainty. Reliability. This is also the only game I've seen, where charms are an asset, instead of a liability. In Everquest you charm something, and the moment it breaks it wipes your party out. People deeply hate charms, which became a probably tangible amount of wasted developer time. And then they add AA abilities that supposedly make the charm or root stronger or last longer. Pure bull****. It still might break the second after you cast it. I saw it happen, I saw countless hours wasted due to this.

In this game, however, all crowd control versions, for the moment, have the fundamental, above-mentioned element of certainty. You know what will happen and for how long -variations included- whenever it doesn't get resisted. You know something will dance, or be held or charmed, or maybe suggested, for a minimum yet anyway useful amount of time. Charm or hold broke? Recast, or kill the mob.

But alas, now I read these "heroic surges" are about to be implemented, and I cringe. Switching reliability for randomness. How so? Well, first we know that it doesn't get resisted, a spell might last from x to y seconds, with a resistance roll every z seconds. Now we just don't know anymore how long they will. It's totally random. Immunity might kick in any time. Not a resistance die roll, but absolute immunity instead. What the hell? And just because a couple mobs were too annoying? Couldn't just have fixed those individually instead, with any of the different of ideas that have already been given in this very same thread?

Allow me to clarify something first though. I know the duration has a random factor already involved with the possibility of mobs breaking free every z seconds. But like I said above, that implies a resistance roll. One that the player can make an effort to make as hard as possible by making the right choices regarding feats or equipment. That's what I mean with the reliability vs randomness dilemma. Reliable because the rules are clear and you got fields to work on. Randomness or uncertainty is what you come across when there's absolutely nothing you can do about it, and you never even know when that's gonna happen. There's no formula, there's no interaction between the player and the puzzle.

Let me tell you something, I saw those mobs as challenges. They were dangerous, sometimes to be feared, and that's just perfect. Dangerous things should keep existing. Otherwise it just boils down to how hard they hit or which resist should I be bringing. All fears or worries are lost, and mobs lose absolutely everything that distinguished themselves from eachother, becoming sheer numbers with different skins.

The last point, and thanks much if you read this far, encompasses the terrible blow casters would be taking. I got both a high level wizard and a fighter. I've been swearing since I started to get lvl 6 spells. I can cast lvl 9 ones now, and can't believe how utterly useless most of them are. Power words, Greater shout, useless. Horrid wilting, *might* see the light with the Pale master spec, but for now, rubbish. Meteor swarm, useless. Summon spells, worthless. Sunburst, delayed fireball, symbols... Make me wonder why they're there at all. Excepting, lo and behold, crowd control ones. Which, btw, happen to have a huge nerf underway. Awesome. Oh and Finger of Spam... er.. Death. Which collides against blanket immunites anyway. That's a brilliant way to solve something, I guess. Blanket immunities. Guess casters should start getting used to Tenser's Transformation...

Anyway, maybe it'll happen like it did with the swinging speed nerf you pulled some months ago. But, I guess, this time we might not hear so many whining voices like back then. Cause most people are lazy and want free loot and xp, without regards of how important the change is to the game. After all, they can't hold their attention on something for anything longer than a couple seconds, and the moment they dislike something, they just ragequit and go back to WoW. Which, unfortunately, is not an option for those of us who just love challenges that involve using our brains, or what's left of them . Even if it means failing multiple times 'till we finally achieve it.

Cheers, and thanks a ton again for reading this much.

[Shassa]

After reading through the feedback so far, it seems like Turbine's heart was in the right place but has been hit by the "law of unintended consequences". If mobs can't be held for the max duration of CC spells, it effectively breaks those spells. Like many others have posted, deal with the Air Elemental ten-saves-a-second problem and the worg trip-while-you're-already-tripped issues seperately and directly. Looks like you guys got a little too creative on this one.

Theres too much soloing in ddo... a MULTIPLAYER game. If you're going to solo everything... Why are you even online at all? Fire up a single player game and solo away in something geared to solo play.

I am an avid soloer. We have many different reasons why we play this way. Some of us have time constraints and don't want to inconvienence others by having to bail suddenly. Others are just more shy or the lone-wolf type. As to the question of why bother with an MMO then, it's because we want to enjoy the game just like anyone else. And regardless of whether we choose to party up or not, there's still a social element there from being around other people which is nice.