Crowd Control/Heroic Surge Feedback

[Borror0]

To obtain your number you would have to assume a lower level and no raid gear.

More or less, yes. That was intentional.

It's an argumentation trick. If you assume high numbers, someone might nitpick your numbers, call you a powergamer detached from casual gamers, and give the false impression to have refuted your claim. If, instead, you assume incredibly low numbers, the only way that anyone can nitpick you is by increasing the numbers which supports your point that the ability is overpowered.

Let me explain my point more clearly for you: The number you stated might give the erroneous impression that fascinate DC is higher than spell DCs yet in the same ballpark, it is not.

A DC of 56 is off the dice.

The duration of Fascinate changes as you level. I don't know the exact times but I know they don't stay fascinated very long at level 4, let alone level 1! LOL Maybe 50 seconds at level 4?

Me neither. I searched a lot for the formula, but I can't find it. I ended up writing three minutes because my bard's Fascinate was that long last time I timed it. If someone knows the formula, let me know. I'll be able to add it to the wiki, this way.

The Lingering Song song AP's also affect the duration.

It's not supposed to, since Fascinate is not a "beneficial song" as Lingering Song wants it to be. You sure of that?

Point being, at lower levels, it's hardly over-powered simply as a result of its duration. [...] At level 20, yes 3+ minutes is excessive.

I agree. The problem is how it keeps increasing until it reaches a duration that is so long that you can just make a few mobs sleep there for twelve minutes with just four songs, which is not a lot of songs. In a situation of survival from respawning mobs, that's very, very powerful because you can stp the mob generator easily. But, the duration should not be changed in a way that makes lower level Fascinate weaker - it's fine, so leave it be.

While I agree that fascinate is situationally overpowered as Boro stated there are mechanics in the game to make this not really true. Take Orchard for instance. Fascinate will only hit 1 of the (3) types of mobs in this zone (you may get the humanoids but you wont get the constructs or undead).

This is why I use the term phrase situationally overpowered. What I am calling for is a cap to its duration, which is why it may sometimes be overpowered in a few very specific situations. In general, it's an ability that, if used right, can be key to win a fight with good teammates or while soloing. That's not a problem, really. It has its weaknesses - like being broke easy - so it's generally well balanced.

The problem is when you're supposed to fight back respawning monsters for several minutes but you just CC them instead to block the mob generator. Thus, instead of fighting, you're merely re-Fascinating the mob every three minutes or so. That's by far much easier than what was intended.

Mind if I quote that?

Go ahead. I wrote it to be quoted.

[redoubt]

The curse thing isn't the best example; its rather more that the ai doesn't use indrect debuffs very well. The AI spammed curse because it had landed it and it knew you were susceptible to it, and it will always do this with spells that land .. which is why it will spam hold person on someone who has a poor will save. It is teh smrt.

If you want to see a fun example, go run into waterworks pt 1 on an evasion character. In the watery room with the multiple pillars, climb up to the chest thats in between the two kobold shamen. Bring with you 2 potions of acid resistance. Don't use them, though.

Stand there and let the kobolds cast. They'll start with their lightning bolts, but after 1-2 of them they'll stop because you evade them. Then they will start spamming their acid touch/melf's acid arrow spell. However, if you drink an acid resistance pot, after 1 of their spells is absorbed by your resist, they'll immediately transition to spamming magic missile.

The spell AI isn't stupid. It's actually pretty good. The problem is that it has no concept of understanding that you have unlimited uses of removing the debuff. After all, if you were a cleric casting remove curse, spamming it back on you to waste your mana would probably be the single best tactic that mob caster could use to make the quest difficult for you.

This is very interesting. I had not giving the mob casters that much credit. That's actually good to see (and know.)

(I did already admit the curse example was not apples to apples though, merely a context to discuss the AI.)

[redoubt]

The only one reason we bother memorizing these spells is that, situationally, they are overpowered.

Fascinate or Flesh to Stone is extremely powerful in any situation where you've got to endure respawns for a good period of time: just immobilize them so that the quest stop regenerating more mobs. By doing that, you're just made the quest several times easier than it was intended to be. Coincidentally, those are the only situations where those spells need to last more than one minute. The rest of the time, in expected gameplay, we'll kill pretty much all the mobs within one minute.

Then remove everything that is good in any situation...

What's the point? Of course the spell is good situationally. Should we nerf smiters because they are good against constructs?

I would argue that its balanced already because it is only good situationally. We only use the few spell that have the most effect in a given situation. You could say the same about any spell we use. Somewhere it is really really good. That is not, however, a valid reason to nerf it.

Another example of that logic pertains to the monk abundant step. It is pretty much a fun thing and only actually useful in one or two places and even there it is not required, but makes a quest a bit easier/quicker... so, by your logic, since it is useful in the titan raid it should be nerfed. Is this really the argument you want to make?

[Mjesko]

Another example of that logic pertains to the monk abundant step. It is pretty much a fun thing and only actually useful in one or two places and even there it is not required, but makes a quest a bit easier/quicker... so, by your logic, since it is useful in the titan raid it should be nerfed. Is this really the argument you want to make?

Or dimension door, which can make quests much easier, too, or even cold spells, which can be very powerful against fire monsters, too, ...

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Then remove everything that is good in any situation...

What's the point? Of course the spell is good situationally. Should we nerf smiters because they are good against constructs?

I would argue that its balanced already because it is only good situationally. We only use the few spell that have the most effect in a given situation. You could say the same about any spell we use. Somewhere it is really really good. That is not, however, a valid reason to nerf it.

Brilliantly worded. +1 rep. This gets to the heart of it.

CC builds are generalists that are masters of situations. Wizards are the ultimate CC build because they can master the most situations. They have the most CC spells available to them because they have access to the largest spellbook. (not to mention the highest class-wide DCs in the game)

But, CC builds such as CC bards have NOTHING so immediate as Wail Of Banshee...finger of death.. banishment. How about 1000+ pt cone of colds? Firewalls have made quite the impact to the War vs Evil don't ya think?

Hmm.. is a disrupter balanced vs undead? How many undead walk around with a weapon as immediately devastating vs us!?

How about a greataxe in the hands of a frenzied barbarian, all raged up?

The sneak attack/backstab bonuses rogues get. Even rogue splash....

Hey for that matter how about greensteel? How many greensteel wielding mobs do you see around?

To now say heeeeeyyy, those cc spells are way too powerful... just doesnt "hold" any weight for me.

CC simply holds is place as an integral part of Dungeons and Dragons. And to a CC build... CC is OUR GREATAXE.

[Borror0]

Of course the spell is good situationally.

I didn't use the word good. I used the term overpowered. The connotation is quite different. If it was merely good, I would have no problem with it.

Some of you people talk like if I want bards nerfed to the ground when one of my favorite characters is my bard. I also stopped playing my sorcerer, because I'm tired of just nuking stuff. Stop reading my arguments as if I want to kill the game and read my posts as if I really think some things are more powerful than they should be.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Stop reading my arguments as if I want to kill the game and read my posts as if I really think some things are more powerful than they should be.

I dont see the need to repetitively give your opinion... it turns into more of "I want my voice heard loudest" more then a discussion of opinions. I think everyone in here knows your opinion. Many disagree with it, which is what you cant understand, or arent willing to.

There are maybe 2-3 tops in favor so far of this. And everyone else is saying why THEY dont want to see this CC nerf go through. Im sorry unless you have a LOT OF MONEY to pay for lost subs.... then it's in Turbine's best interest to listen to EVERYBODY.

[SimVerg]

This is why I use the term phrase situationally overpowered. What I am calling for is a cap to its duration, which is why it may sometimes be overpowered in a few very specific situations. In general, it's an ability that, if used right, can be key to win a fight with good teammates or while soloing. That's not a problem, really. It has its weaknesses - like being broke easy - so it's generally well balanced.

The problem is when you're supposed to fight back respawning monsters for several minutes but you just CC them instead to block the mob generator. Thus, instead of fighting, you're merely re-Fascinating the mob every three minutes or so. That's by far much easier than what was intended.

Your solution to a situational issue is a global change? Is the right answer to people reentering Epic dungeons to remove the ability to reenter any dungeon?

edit: Here's a better idea I came up with in about 30 seconds. Monsters that are intended to respawn are given a buff that works similarly to Epic Ward's charm duration reduction. The duration of all CC effects that hit them is reduced to (original duration-30)*some value+30...you can even set up multiple brackets like a progressive income tax!

[Junts]

I dont see the need to repetitively give your opinion... it turns into more of "I want my voice heard loudest" more then a discussion of opinions. I think everyone in here knows your opinion. Many disagree with it, which is what you cant understand, or arent willing to.

There are maybe 2-3 tops in favor so far of this. And everyone else is saying why THEY dont want to see this CC nerf go through. Im sorry unless you have a LOT OF MONEY to pay for lost subs.... then it's in Turbine's best interest to listen to EVERYBODY.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that either Borr or I thought the heroic surge change, as initially proposed, was a good idea.. actually, we've spent some time pointing out the things it was attempting to fix, and alternative ways of doing it.

But since you're primarily interested in acting superior and settling your old grudge, I really doubt you've actually read anything at all. And that's cool, just keep on doin what you're doing. It beats convincing yourself you're Mark Knopfler.

[Borror0]

I dont see the need to repetitively give your opinion... it turns into more of "I want my voice heard loudest" more then a discussion of opinions.

Seems liek some people might listen to their own advices...

I think everyone in here knows your opinion.

Apparently not, since a lot of people misrepresent my arguments...

There are maybe 2-3 tops in favor so far of this.

As far as I can see, most of us seem to in in agreement over a few points:
1. If they feel the short-duration portion of Heroic Surge (ie MadFloyd's original plan) is necessary, that is fine. Most people don't take issue with that.
2. If they feel some spells are too powerful because of their duration, don't apply a game-wide change for an handful of spell that may last too long.
3. Make CC more useful in the near future. Please, pretty please.

EDIT:

Your solution to a situational issue is a global change? Is the right answer to people reentering Epic dungeons to remove the ability to reenter any dungeon?

No. As I repeatedly stated through the thread, if you have a problem with some spells' duration, nerf the duration instead. Don't apply a global change.

[SimVerg]

EDIT:

No. As I repeatedly stated through the thread, if you have a problem with some spell's duraron, nerf the duration instead. Don't apply a global change.

That's a global change to the spell. Unless your argument is "Certain long duration spells are overpowered but others aren't" or "All long duration spells are overpowered in all situations" you're still nuking from orbit.

edit: I can't preclude the possibility your argument *is* actually 1 or 2! Clarify!

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Pot meets kettle...

Apparently not, since a lot of people misrepresent my arguments...

As far as I can see, most of us seem to in in agreement over a few points:
1. If they feel the short-duration portion of Heroic Surge (ie MadFloyd's original plan) is necessary, that is fine. Most people don't take issue with that.
2. If they feel some spells are too powerful because of their duration, don't apply a game-wide change for an handful of spell that may last too long.
3. Make CC more useful in the near future. Please, pretty please.

No. Thats falsifying the facts. Most have spoken out AGAINST heroic surge. You COMPLETELY skewed the data.

CC players have OVERWELMINGLY stated to LEAVE CC ALONE.

And #3, thats just a joke.

Not talking all day today,... Have fun sellin it Bor....

[sephiroth1084]

I didn't use the word good. I used the term overpowered. The connotation is quite different. If it was merely good, I would have no problem with it.

Some of you people talk like if I want bards nerfed to the ground when one of my favorite characters is my bard. I also stopped playing my sorcerer, because I'm tired of just nuking stuff. Stop reading my arguments as if I want to kill the game and read my posts as if I really think some things are more powerful than they should be.

Way to set yourself up for later, when you'll actually be trying to bring about the death of the game, but we'll be reading otherwise! You evil, conniving bastard! Well played. Well played.

[Borror0]

That's a global change to the spell. Unless your argument is "Certain long duration spells are overpowered but others aren't" or "All long duration spells are overpowered in all situations" you're still nuking from orbit.

edit: I can't preclude the possibility your argument *is* actually 1 or 2! Clarify!

The argument is: "If that ability is used to the full of its duration, it is most certainly used exploitatively because, in normal combat situations, there is no good reason to let it let it last that long." I can't think of a way to use Fascinate to CC a mob for three minute that is not meant to overcome a quest mechanic in an unintended, cheesy and overpowered manner (which is what I mean by 'exploitatively').

Basically, I don't feel "I'm nuking from orbit" because I don't think I'm nerfing the spell in when used in normal, acceptable circumstances.

And #3, thats just a joke.

I know. I wrote it humorously. Thus, it's purposely "a joke." Perhaps I shouldn't have, though, since it's probably the most important point of all three.

[Angelus_dead]

This is very interesting. I had not giving the mob casters that much credit. That's actually good to see (and know.)

But it isn't true... mob casters do not shift their spell choices according to what has been working.

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

It's not supposed to, since Fascinate is not a "beneficial song" as Lingering Song wants it to be. You sure of that?

No, I'm not sure of it I just suspect it because it seems like it follows the same formula as the Spellsinger/Ironskin chant durations and those are affected by Lingering Song, unless I'm wrong about that too! LOL

Also, I used Fascinate ALOT when I TR'd my Bard because I solo'd most everything. It really felt like they stayed fascinated longer when I was able to finally grab lingering song. But I didn't officially test that.

[MadFloyd]

No sir. Decreasing the durations is not a good balancing act.

Look at all the previous nerfs to CC. Want to know why flesh to stone is popular? They nerfed everything else. Charms went down this summer. Back in the orchard and GH many CC spells were countered with blanket immunites and that tactic continued. (That is turbine continued to pass out blanket immunies to the mobs in subsequents content releases.)

And don't nerf it, by hiding under the "we're helping the players" guise again either. This past summer grazing hits were added to help the players, really it helped mobs hit high AC players so that mez's could be applied during DAs. It was not to help players. We were not having trouble hitting.

In the same mod we got auto regen of stat and level damage. We didn't need this. In fact I don't like having it. I'd rather we just travel with someone who can fix it or carry the appropriate resources ourselves. This change was a step down the easy button road for people who don't like to be prepared and a nerf for people who use tactics other that "kill it all." No more CC, no more incapicitating mobs either???

This is simply one more (or maybe several) step(s) down the easy button road. I don't want curse to wear off. I don't want flesh to stone to wear off. I'll drink a pot. I'll use break enchantment. I'll find someone I can pay to remove the curse. Or I'll wait around until I roll a 20 and save from the stone.

Want an alteranate solution?

Stop letting the mobs spam cast. If I cast hold monster and saw the another mob toss break enchantment and free the first I'd think that was awesome AI. When it did it a second time I'd stop using that spell until the caster was dead. The current AI just keeps spamming the same spell. I was cursed multiple times by the same caster as I waded through his minions trying to get to him. I kept drinking curse pots and he kept casting the same (non-damaging) spell. Why is he not smart enough to change to a new spell?

Now I know my example is a little different, but I feel the solution lies, at least partially, in the AI.

The other part (which my be easier to do) is pretty much what Mad said.

1. Don't reapply the same affect while it is already active.
2. Brief immunity to the affect when it wears off. (1-2 seconds) I did mean brief. Enough time to run or cast a spell.

In addition to what was said in Mad's post:

3. Fix the air elementals separately. Many people have posted good ideas. I think one was about making them switch out of their whirly mode. If that's true to DnD and stops the knock downs while they make a different kind of attack, I think that would be a step in the right direction.
4. Add variety to mob actions. I like the minotaurs. They do all kinds of stuff. The shaman's will cast, swing weapons and charge. It seems like a pretty balanced blend of attacks. I have to defend against each in a different way and I have to pay attention to what they are doing. That is awesome. Make more mobs act that way.
4a. dogs for example should do more than just spam trip.

I'm still playing catch-up with all these posts, but this is a very interesting post.

Thank you.

[MadFloyd]

Just want to make sure everyone understands that the SAVE frequency for FtS has been dramatically shortened on Lamannia...

Per the RELEASE NOTES
The following spells are no longer permanent for players or monsters. Both players and monsters enjoy reoccurring saves against this effect, though players get saves more frequently. The spells now last 60 seconds plus 10 per caster level. The effects have a diminished duration on players.
Feeblemind
Flesh to Stone

When you check it out, you can see the mobs rolling saves every few seconds. Unless you Energy drain them, they make the save pretty quickly. So from that standpoint, unless you were seriously overlevel, Heroic Surge was a moot point, since the mobs would break free via saves LONG before the HS would kick in.

Unless they change things back, the 1/min save for Flesh to Stone is more like 1/6 Seconds (or less). Put it this way, Trogs in House D Dungeons of X quests were break free from DC33 FtS spells in 15 to 20 seconds, and often sooner. Even if they only have a +15 DC, that gives them a 15% chance to save, and if you get to roll every few seconds, you will succeed on one pretty soon.

So the concern needs to not be solely focused on the HS end of things, but the other changes to spell functions as listed in the Notes.

I'm glad you posted this. I need to clarify something here with regard to my first post in this thread stating that that Heroic Surge would not go live immediately. Update 3 is locked (it's in final testing before going live) and it contains Heroic Surge plus the CC duration modifications. We can effectively turn off HS via a switch (and I believe we'll be doing this on Lamannia shortly), but we cannot effect changes to spells themselves.

This means that if we do decide changes are in order, it'll be done via patch. The fact that the changes go live does not mean they are permanent. Unfortunately our schedule is aggressive and it makes the window for getting feedback and adjusting to them very tight. We build in knobs and switches for that reason, but some things are beyond the scope of that.

[Zenako]

Yah, I am not sure why more players did not get out to Lamannia to check things out more for themsleves. The new Character Copy thing addressed a ton of issues with previous testing requests. None of the changes stand alone, but the synergy of all of them was rather pronounced in gameplay out there, especially when attempting to solo with a CC focused caster.

[JPDefault]

(...)
Look at all the previous nerfs to CC. Want to know why flesh to stone is popular? They nerfed everything else. Charms went down this summer. Back in the orchard and GH many CC spells were countered with blanket immunites and that tactic continued. (That is turbine continued to pass out blanket immunies to the mobs in subsequents content releases.)
(...)
In the same mod we got auto regen of stat and level damage. We didn't need this. In fact I don't like having it. I'd rather we just travel with someone who can fix it or carry the appropriate resources ourselves. This change was a step down the easy button road for people who don't like to be prepared and a nerf for people who use tactics other that "kill it all." No more CC, no more incapicitating mobs either???
(...I agree with everything else too...)

I think this is a crucial point.
There must be a reason if a vast amount of players rapidly reach level 20 without carrying a single potion, and then everybody seems to get quickly bored with the endgame.
Well, okay, I wasn't here before EU, but since my very first day of game I was very disappointed with all those easy buttons. Probably because I was an old school D&D 1st/2nd edition player, but that's also the reason why I decided to give DDO a try.
Didn't someone state "no challenge = no fun"?