Crowd Control/Heroic Surge Feedback

[SimVerg]

since even on elite/epic the heroic surge timers for mobs are 60-90 seconds, the purpose of this change is not to impact me using irresistable dance, or otto's sphere, or even web to immobilize a mob group

Its to deal with tactics like flesh to stoning all the respawning orthons in tower part 3 because its permanent and they can consequently be ignored foreverafter instead of having them respawn every 30-45 seconds or so. That tactic was so powerful that they had to make stoned orthons randomly die after 30 seconds so that more would spawn ... 3 energy drains to stack on 15 negative levels (for -30 to fort saves) ensured that they would never, ordinarly, save out. It trivializes challenge when you use cc this way.

Timers on epic/elite are 30 and 60 seconds. Elite probably won't be very noticeable unless you're soloing, epic eliminates entire branches of strategies for parts of Von 1(cc the gladiators you aren't currently killing),3(any of the massive drow fights or the EE's at the end), and 6.

[Borror0]

Timers on epic/elite are 30 and 60 seconds. Elite probably won't be very noticeable unless you're soloing, epic eliminates entire branches of strategies for parts of Von 1(cc the gladiators you aren't currently killing),3(any of the massive drow fights or the EE's at the end), and 6.

Yeah but it's not like Epic was intended to be fun.

[JPDefault]

Chiming in here to say that we *are* listening - or at least trying to (some of the posts in this thread make it somewhat difficult :-)).

This is a complex game and we're well aware that despite our best intentions, there can be undesirable ramifications. That's why we have Lamannia and start threads asking for feedback.

Thanks to all of you who tested the changes and reported their findings. I can say right now that this feature will not go live in the next update.

Having said that, I'd love to engage (and perhaps challenge) you on some of the concerns listed in this thread at some point in the near future.

Thanks for caring.

Good news! And I'm happy to see a dev has "No challenge, no fun" as a signature.

[Junts]

Timers on epic/elite are 30 and 60 seconds. Elite probably won't be very noticeable unless you're soloing, epic eliminates entire branches of strategies for parts of Von 1(cc the gladiators you aren't currently killing),3(any of the massive drow fights or the EE's at the end), and 6.

What cc lasts for more htan 30 seconds that works on epic anyway? Heroic surges only last whta, 6 seconds? Is there any reason you can't re-do the spam irresistable dances again afterwords? It generally breaks at 30 seconds anyway.

its not like you are using any other cc for more than 15 seconds on epic.

[SimVerg]

What cc lasts for more htan 30 seconds that works on epic anyway? Heroic surges only last whta, 6 seconds? Is there any reason you can't re-do the spam irresistable dances again afterwords? It generally breaks at 30 seconds anyway.

its not like you are using any other cc for more than 15 seconds on epic.

Fascinate, dance and web. Heroic surges last until you hit the mob with another cc effect(they do have a duration but I think it was 40 seconds).

[Kriogen]

You seem to be underestimating just how powerful CC is in DDO. ...

CC in this game is powerful, but casters are also gimped compare to other games because of no mana regeneration and the fact that monsters also get 'saves' and have 'spell resistance'. Oh, and 'immune' is unusually common in this game.

Other games do have CC spells with sort duration, like Stun for 2 sec and then you are immnune vs Stun for 6 seconds, but that stun is unconditional and caster regens mana, so in 8 seconds caster can stun again, if target or caster is still alive.

I must also add, that in other games if you get stunned, then get immunity vs stun, you get immune vs stun only. Not dispel all and immune vs all things. It's also true, that other games may have only 1-2 'stun' effects. Lets say just Trip and Stun, thats it, nothing more.

If DDO would go with short duration CC (like other games), it will also have to add other elements from those 'other games'. Like remove saves, SR and add mana regen and remove many, many spells/effects. But would this still be DDO?

[Angelus_dead]

Having said that, I'd love to engage (and perhaps challenge) you on some of the concerns listed in this thread at some point in the near future.

A little suggestion:
If you're thinking of being brave and engaging/challenging players regarding various evaluations of the game design, maybe you should warm up by starting with topics that don't have as much widespread importance to the game as a whole. That'll lower the stakes, reducing the damage if it turns out that your challenge is either unsuccessful, or so successful that the players in question feel you were being mean.

For example, topics such as the Terror greatsword or the challenge level in Weapons Shipment and Aspect Mine are contentious and many players would disagree with the (apparent) developer position, but they're ultimately unimportant. You could also look back on old design choices like Antique Bronze Tokens and Desert Caravan, which players no longer care much about, and do a bit of a post-mortem.

I also recommend taking a look at how some WOW devs go about disputing their players in forums. ("I don't want to shoot your pony")

[Junts]

A little suggestion:
If you're thinking of being brave and engaging/challenging players regarding various evaluations of the game design, maybe you should warm up by starting with topics that don't have as much widespread importance to the game as a whole. That'll lower the stakes, reducing the damage if it turns out that your challenge is either unsuccessful, or so successful that the players in question feel you were being mean.

For example, topics such as the Terror greatsword or the challenge level in Weapons Shipment and Aspect Mine are contentious and many players would disagree with the (apparent) developer position, but they're ultimately unimportant. You could also look back on old design choices like Antique Bronze Tokens and Desert Caravan, which players no longer care much about, and do a bit of a post-mortem.

I also recommend taking a look at how some WOW devs go about disputing their players in forums. ("I don't want to shoot your pony")

Whenever I read something posted by ghostcrawler, I imagine how this forum would spontaneously combust if we had a dev like that, both in terms of debate, and how often he insults, demeans or outright makes fun of his playerbase.

[Borror0]

[...] the fact that monsters also get 'saves' and have 'spell resistance'. Oh, and 'immune' is unusually common in this game.

Go back to the post bekkar quoted and you'll see I addressed that part of your argument in it.

A little suggestion:
If you're thinking of being brave and engaging/challenging players regarding various evaluations of the game design, maybe you should warm up by starting with topics that don't have as much widespread importance to the game as a whole. That'll lower the stakes, reducing the damage if it turns out that your challenge is either unsuccessful, or so successful that the players in question feel you were being mean.

Additionally, it will build a good reputation which might give you some leverage when tackling more controversial topics. If you start with a very controversial topic and then fail to sway the playerbase on your side, you might end up being cursed with the reputation of being a "clueless dev".

[Angelus_dead]

how often he insults, demeans or outright makes fun of his playerbase.

I can't say I've read 100% of his posts, but I click there often and have never seen that occur (unless you count things such as forum rules administration, which is something the DDO devs already do themselves, just not under the name of an individual designer).

[Mjesko]

Chiming in here to say that we *are* listening - or at least trying to (some of the posts in this thread make it somewhat difficult :-)).

This is a complex game and we're well aware that despite our best intentions, there can be undesirable ramifications. That's why we have Lamannia and start threads asking for feedback.

Thanks to all of you who tested the changes and reported their findings. I can say right now that this feature will not go live in the next update.

Having said that, I'd love to engage (and perhaps challenge) you on some of the concerns listed in this thread at some point in the near future.

Thanks for caring.

Thank you for delaying this feature and i hope you will find a better solution.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

A little suggestion:
If you're thinking of being brave and engaging/challenging players regarding various evaluations of the game design, maybe you should warm up by starting with topics that don't have as much widespread importance to the game as a whole.

Actually, I think he's off to a great start. They gave us a chance to voice our opinion on a widespread game-altering change for many builds. Our feedback was overwhelmingly negative. By coming out in a relatively clear and precise way, his honesty and concern for the playerbase seems absolutely genuine to me. It also shows that this time... the devs did the right thing. The few dollars they spent coding this change didnt go to waste, because good PR like this is priceless for a game such as DDO, as well as the future of Turbine itself.


Kudos to Turbine, thank you for listening to our concerns this time.

[Zenako]

Exactly, if we can start with the purported issue that they were trying to address, I am more than sure that the collective minds here can come up with a range of potential methods to address that issue.

What is often overlooked in the whole HS madness, was the simulataneous reduction in the save frequency timers on spells as well. That combination of effects really kills some CC.

Yes it could be annoying to get FtS'd in a quest and sit there for a few minutes before you saved, but that was one of the risks when you chose to fight that type of mob. Same with IRDance or Disco Ball. They at least had some teeth.

So what was the goal? The Release notes made mention of trying to address some player concerns, perhaps reducing those into an objective would make this easier. Was it to give a way for melees to get out of the knockdown/trip loops you could get into with Canines and Air Elementals? If so, there are ways to address those issues and many have been suggested. Was the motivation to reduce the impact of longer duration CC on PLayers when cast by mobs? Then having a dual set of save timers would work. Asymetrical. Current spell durations on Mobs, lower save timer intervals for characters.

Was it concern about minibosses getting hammered with CC (IRDance for example?) Perhaps something along the lines of HS for Orange named or above. The "Heroes" of the monsters. With everything from the lowliest Kobold to high level mobs getting Heroic Surge, it no longer seemed all that "heroic".

I am sure the collective minds out here will be able to make many viable suggestions that could be considered and then filtered with a developer with an eye towards the implications on the ease of coding such things as well.

[daniel7]

Chiming in here to say that we *are* listening - or at least trying to (some of the posts in this thread make it somewhat difficult :-)).

This is a complex game and we're well aware that despite our best intentions, there can be undesirable ramifications. That's why we have Lamannia and start threads asking for feedback.

Thanks to all of you who tested the changes and reported their findings. I can say right now that this feature will not go live in the next update.

Having said that, I'd love to engage (and perhaps challenge) you on some of the concerns listed in this thread at some point in the near future.

Thanks for caring.

Awesome

[Ishbel]

Soo... I can continue building my Spellsinger and not worry that it'll be pointless in the end?

[Favis]

Fascinate, dance and web. Heroic surges last until you hit the mob with another cc effect(they do have a duration but I think it was 40 seconds).

The 2 thing that I disslike most with Heroic Surge (only speaking about spells vs monsters) is:
1) That it adds more imunities to the game ( it's as fun for CC car as it is for a DPS melee to fight agains a mob that has so high damage reduction that his hit don't works)

2) The that it totaly throws out the predictability of the D&D 3.5 system. And this is done unnesseary in many cast. The exemple of the that in some quests new mobs spam when you ones are killed shows that. In the original design the quest was never made in that way. Adding it fit's bad with the D&D 3.5 system. What need to change is not the system but the quest where "spam when dead" is used. A simple change would be that more mobs come based on a maximum timer.
Like
IF(allMobsDead){
spam more mobs
}
ELSE{
IF(time > maxtime){
spam more mobs
}
ELSE{
// nothing happend
}
}

[daniel7]

Soo... I can continue building my Spellsinger and not worry that it'll be pointless in the end?

Your build won't be gimped this update.

Just for the record I'd like to say that I didn't just like the fact that crowd control was going to be less effective on mobs I also didn't want the spells that mobs cast on the players to be less effective.

A non-paladin tank should pay the price of his/her low will save...

[daniel7]

Exactly, if we can start with the purported issue that they were trying to address, I am more than sure that the collective minds here can come up with a range of potential methods to address that issue.

What is often overlooked in the whole HS madness, was the simulataneous reduction in the save frequency timers on spells as well. That combination of effects really kills some CC.

Yes it could be annoying to get FtS'd in a quest and sit there for a few minutes before you saved, but that was one of the risks when you chose to fight that type of mob. Same with IRDance or Disco Ball. They at least had some teeth.

So what was the goal? The Release notes made mention of trying to address some player concerns, perhaps reducing those into an objective would make this easier. Was it to give a way for melees to get out of the knockdown/trip loops you could get into with Canines and Air Elementals? If so, there are ways to address those issues and many have been suggested. Was the motivation to reduce the impact of longer duration CC on PLayers when cast by mobs? Then having a dual set of save timers would work. Asymetrical. Current spell durations on Mobs, lower save timer intervals for characters.

Was it concern about minibosses getting hammered with CC (IRDance for example?) Perhaps something along the lines of HS for Orange named or above. The "Heroes" of the monsters. With everything from the lowliest Kobold to high level mobs getting Heroic Surge, it no longer seemed all that "heroic".

I am sure the collective minds out here will be able to make many viable suggestions that could be considered and then filtered with a developer with an eye towards the implications on the ease of coding such things as well.

I agree completely with you Zenako. We should be equally concerned with the fact that they almost gimped enemy casters as well.

[KKDragonLord]

Chiming in here to say that we *are* listening - or at least trying to (some of the posts in this thread make it somewhat difficult :-)).

This is a complex game and we're well aware that despite our best intentions, there can be undesirable ramifications. That's why we have Lamannia and start threads asking for feedback.

Thanks to all of you who tested the changes and reported their findings. I can say right now that this feature will not go live in the next update.

Having said that, I'd love to engage (and perhaps challenge) you on some of the concerns listed in this thread at some point in the near future.

Thanks for caring.

Awesome.

I stand corrected. Beta is not only about testing stuff, you guys do listen, this makes me glad to be a part of the community.

[argentstar]

Chiming in here to say that we *are* listening - or at least trying to (some of the posts in this thread make it somewhat difficult :-)).

This is a complex game and we're well aware that despite our best intentions, there can be undesirable ramifications. That's why we have Lamannia and start threads asking for feedback.

Thanks to all of you who tested the changes and reported their findings. I can say right now that this feature will not go live in the next update.

Having said that, I'd love to engage (and perhaps challenge) you on some of the concerns listed in this thread at some point in the near future.

Thanks for caring.

I am not currently on Lamannia, however, when I first heard about this Heroic Surge idea, I thought it was a rather strange way to address the problem. Would it be more difficult for you to approach it from the diminishing returns direction? Say an effect has full power the first time it is applied during a battle and subsequent applications to the same target would have either an increasing number of saves or a shorter duration or both. Of course you would have to eliminate any permanent duration.