Crowd Control/Heroic Surge Feedback

[Zenako]

The problem with that is heroic surge affects a lot more than just hold person and hold monster. What heroic surge does it take a number of effects that are balanced by duration and makes them all short. And then makes the target immune to them for a brief period.

That cripples some builds.

Once HS happens it negates all existing CC effects. You could be Stoned, Charmed, Webbed and Tripped and those ALL go away once the timer for the first effect on you has hit the magic moment. (might even apply to things like crippled, but not sure). Would be interesing if it also applied to things like Orange/Red DA effects on your movement... Then you are immune to any CC until someone casts another CC at you for a period of time. (on characters and mobs it can be upwards of 20 seconds).

It will be interesting to see if you can bork some quests by forcing CC onto you so you get the HS and then are able to ignore the next CC and make otherwise impossible attacks/events happen due to being immune to CC for a brief period?...

[Aashrym]

By the time half of the duration is gone, most mobs are already dead.

And the party has taken less damage and saved on healing resources while each mob was fascinated because they were attacked less.

The general idea is to prevent damage while killing the mobs.

Good crowd control equates to less healing required. A high impact change like this will increase the party healing resources necessary. Again, not so much of an issue for the fighters out there, but another hit to some classes.

How are you calculating 'half' duration? The surge timer is static, not based on the duration of the effect. That's one of the issues with it. A 5 min duration and a 4 min duration and a 1 min duration break on 1 min from surge on elite.

Not a big deal in some cases, but in some cases it is. If we see this go live possibly remove breaks-on-attack effects from the list the mobs can surge out of.

[Cyr]

By the time half of the duration is gone, most mobs are already dead.

Sure on easy content. On easy content CC is almost irrelevant anyways however. The discussion going on here has for the most part been about challenging content or border line groups. This would be soloing certain things on certain builds. It would also most certainly be EPIC content. You know where people usually bother using fascinate in the first place...

[Favis]

And the party has taken less damage and saved on healing resources while each mob was fascinated because they were attacked less.

The general idea is to prevent damage while killing the mobs.

Good crowd control equates to less healing required. A high impact change like this will increase the party healing resources necessary. Again, not so much of an issue for the fighters out there, but another hit to some classes.

Could be a side effect of making CC weaker.

[Ponza69]

the new king of CC - the paralyzer weapon

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Flesh to Stone:
Flesh to stone has been cut down yes but leaving up a mob permanently then not killing it always seemed silly to me.

To zero in on just one of your opinions..... The spell is called Flesh to STONE. Not Flesh to Paper or Flesh to Slinky.

Official d20 Description: The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue. If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities. The creature is not dead, but it does not seem to be alive either

Needlessly departing from core D&D rules is a bad thing for this game. When changing spells to the point they are in stark contrast to its definition (thats been in place and understood for DECADES) you turn your veteran base away from the game even further.

Most people bought this game and pay for this game BECAUSE its a Dungeons & Dragons product. For some of us, it brings us BACK to our childhood in a big way.
Damaging that bond will only result in lost subs, whether its because of this change specifically, or because its just another nail in the coffin for someone disgruntled that the main reason this game was purchased in the first place has vanished forever.

This is a needless change. And a complete departure from core D&D principle. Am I predicting mass exodus? Of course not. But you have just blackballed a sizable portion of your player base.

[parvo]

Dungeon Scaling.

If that is not enough:
1. Because "stand there while I kill X mob" is not fun design
2. Because "we need X or Y class" is not fun design

And therefore every class in the game should be able to easily fight off every mob, regardless how horrible the build and/or player. Which, by the way, is exactly what Turb is shooting for here. Every mod lowers the bar. There's no target in sight either. The mission is simply "make it easier".

[KKDragonLord]

I am extremely open minded whenever the devs add changes to the game, i look to the positive sides and intended results and usually it works for the improvement of the game.

After seeing the tests results posted here though i will only say one thing about this.

If i had a caster or a bard and this thing went live the way it is now, or even close to what it is now.

I would delete my account and never play DDO again.

It would be easier to remove CC from the game, at least that would be honest.

CC is underused as it is, mostly because of the current ridiculously high saves and blanket immunities.
Epic is the new end game, aren't they immune to CC already? Why change the rest of the game with that too?


Edit: Saying it sucks doesn't help right.

Its bad because it discourages CC specced toons, CC is the 4th dimension of D&D where it breaks the mold of Tank/DPS/Heal, its not measurable therefore its not in the DPS charts ppl go crazy about around the forums, but those who make bards and wizards, and they aren't few in the real servers, they know very well the worth of it.

CC might be confusing to new players, i understand. They might say, "this is too easy! why isnt the Mob doing anything?" etc... but if CC is believed to be overpowered, or over-effective, it needs to be dealt with Within the rules. This is D&D, the devs aren't just devs at some random game, they proposed themselves to work with the rules, like any DM, and like any DM, they face a dilemma, you can't always bend the rules. If you bend or break the rules too much your players will not like it, thats because like any other game, there is an understanding that goes on when everyone involved choose to play the game, it would be unfair to break that understanding without good reason.

The idea of "its only half as bad as it looks, 30seconds should be longer than most fights anyway" is not enough to justify this, because if thats true, then why even do it?

There are methods to counter CC in D&D, blanket immunities even, like the spell "Mind Blank", add those spells to enemies if you want. Don't need to make caster enemies have to cast that at the start of combat. Make enemies have long duration buffs already when we 1st arrive, players always have those active too right? Make casters use their powers to actively counter CC within the rules of D&D, that makes things interesting. Making up rules on the spot to prevent spells from working? Not interesting in the slightest. D&D has powerful spells, it has powerful defenses against those spells, and it has the option of Dispelling those defenses, its a whole fighting system, Dispel magic should be one of the main spells in any respectable caster repertoire, even mobs. Make things More complex and interesting, not Less.

In my opinion, there are a whole lot of spells the game currently lacks and should be added. The spells that are here and are useless, such as power words, should be made useful, every spell should have a use, its absurd that some spells simply never mattered and should never be used, spells add variety and versatility to casters, its what makes them interesting. Every time a spell isn't worth taking or broken, the class suffers for it, the game suffers for it.

I believe the Devs might have thought that by doing this they would make every party with CC casters move more carefully through encounters, making sure to be prepared to take full advantage of CC at each combat because then they would only have a 30 secs window to work with. I also believe this is the next part of a "Complete System Revision", (possibly to add PvP), that they have been planning and working on since before DDO:EU launched, every update changes things in similar ways. The end result will not be what they might be expecting though, when powers or abilities are unreliable players tend to stay away from them completely.

Work with the tools D&D gives you devs, not around them. If you wont, then why even call this game D&D? Change the name and do whatever...

[zealous]

Then you are immune to any CC until someone casts another CC at you for a period of time. (on characters and mobs it can be upwards of 20 seconds).

Do I interpret this correctly?
If you hold/fts/web a mob, it'll surge and be immune to hold/fts/web for 20-30s. However, if you apply some other effect, e.g. trip, it'll absorb that effect and break the surge and you're free to hold/fts/web it again?

[Pyromaniac]

Borro0 and Turbine have one thing in common for sure, NOBODY agrees with them.

QFT on this topic. Though there's probably somebody in here who loves the idea of eliminating crowd control as a concept.

Wonder what the impact will be to the cleric/FvS population outside of soloing from this change? No CC is extremely painful on healers.

Epic is pretty much the only thing interesting at end game, killing it when its on life support already is a sad thing. A marginal amount of CC is useful in Epic, probably not now.

[Kriogen]

...Wonder what the impact will be to the cleric/FvS population outside of soloing from this change? No CC is extremely painful on healers.

Generic MMO holy trinity: Tank/DPS/Heal.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Generic MMO holy trinity: Tank/DPS/Heal.

Oh you mean:

/ /

How boring....

[Aashrym]

Generic MMO holy trinity: Tank/DPS/Heal.

Yep. And I'm thinking that taxes the healers more and leaves casters playing second fiddle to melees for tank AND dps.

Might be more of a LFM with, 'Tank/DPS/Healer filled. Buffers only please'.

This mechanic is not a step in the right direction for this game. Maybe Turbine could have consulted more of the player base before using development resources to add something like. A general response on the proposed changes may have saved them time and money and worked the initial model into something a bit more agreeable.

[Zenako]

Do I interpret this correctly?
If you hold/fts/web a mob, it'll surge and be immune to hold/fts/web for 20-30s. However, if you apply some other effect, e.g. trip, it'll absorb that effect and break the surge and you're free to hold/fts/web it again?

From a bunch of testing what happens is that once a mob Heroic Surges, they are then immune to other CC type effects for a period of time, UNTIL any CC type affect is cast at them, which consumes the immunity. That HS immunity will expire on its own in variable time, but often around 20 seconds, if you do not knock it out sooner.

Example: Hold a mob, it breaks free with HS. I can then hit it with all sorts of Damage spells and the HS does nothing. However, if in those protected timeframes you cast a CC spell, the HS blocks it (with a bright flash and ice breaking sound), leaving the mob back to normal and vulnerable to CC again.

I do not think the actual type of CC matters. It also does not matter how many differ CC affects you have on you at once, they all break when the HS hits. You can be FtS, Held, Dancing, Ghoul Touched and Charmed at the same time and they all break. (my poor second account cleric was getting abused in the PvP pit last night.)

Now one thing that has not been reported on as much is how the changes to durations of the effects on characters comes into play. Most CC type spells with durations now are giving you saving throws against them every few seconds (some as often as evrey 3 seconds it appears). That meant it was very hard to make a FtS effect last on my level 15 cleric for more than a handful of seconds (at least until I energy Drained them 13 levels...) Then I could get it to stick for the time until the HS kicked in.

From what I see, it will be almost pointless to carry or worry about most bad effects anymore, they will go away on their own in seconds. FtS...no worry instead of 1 save per minute, you are getting saves every few seconds... Spells with longer durations like Ghoul Touch, are now down to about 1 second/caster level (at least in PvP pits).

Also it seemed that every time a spell expired without having been saved against, the HS effect kicked in anyway, making you immune to the next CC coming your way.

While the affects on CC for our caster wizards will be significant, the almost complete loss of consequences for getting hit with an adverse spell makes this an even more ill conceived change to game mechanics. If they wanted to give a lengthy countdown to expiration like that have done with Curse, to other effects that are long or permanent, that might be palitable, but to almost remove the effects completely from being anything to worry about, is frankly sad.

As a follow on, certain Debuffs are unaffected. Ray of Enfeeblement, Touch of Idiocy, Energy Drain, etc all persist thru HS.

And not sure if it was a recent change, but at least in the PvP pit if you examined a character with a Heroic Surge ongoing it does show up in the text regarding effects. However since the duration of HS is so short it hardly matters if you can check it, since by the time you examine the mob, it could be almost gone anyway, and the Examine Window is not dynamic, just a snapshot from when you opened it.

[zealous]

From a bunch of testing what happens is that once a mob Heroic Surges, they are then immune to other CC type effects for a period of time, UNTIL any CC type affect is cast at them, which consumes the immunity. That HS immunity will expire on its own in variable time, but often around 20 seconds, if you do not knock it out sooner.

Ta =)

Example: Hold a mob, it breaks free with HS. I can then hit it with all sorts of Damage spells and the HS does nothing. However, if in those protected timeframes you cast a CC spell, the HS blocks it (with a bright flash and ice breaking sound), leaving the mob back to normal and vulnerable to CC again.

So in short like a one charge spell mantle i guess. Is HS checked prior to or after the save is made? I.e. is it possible to use a lvl1 scroll to remove it?

While the affects on CC for our caster wizards will be significant, the almost complete loss of consequences for getting hit with an adverse spell makes this an even more ill conceived change to game mechanics. If they wanted to give a lengthy countdown to expiration like that have done with Curse, to other effects that are long or permanent, that might be palitable, but to almost remove the effects completely from being anything to worry about, is frankly sad.

I'm not that sure anymore...given that they're not 20s blanket immunity and the wishcrafting that they can tweak surges to have more than 1 charge before being removed. Think it could possibly open up some very interesting possibilities.

Sure, suggestion and break on damage cc will take a big hit, might be worth it though and fixing a few spells to not cause HS might be possible.

If you're playing fast/at low difficulties you will probably not notice it, if you're playing at higher difficulties you can always remove it and reapply spells. Would put more of a drain on mana though but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Plenty of ways they could tilt the balance back a bit, e.g. lower saves a bit so that the change would become cast leveldrain + cc to cast cc and later on possibly remove HS and cast cc again.

Another thing they could do would be to lower casting speed (cooldown before being able to cast another spell, I'm talkin to you) based on caster levels. Could possibly also lower spell point costs.

[ieatogres]

Flesh to Stone.

As for the rest, it rarely has any effect except on charm effects and that might not really be a bad thing since it's a pretty powerful effect. The rest of the time, how likely are you to fight the same non-named mob for 1 minute? Rarely, if ever. So, it won't really have an effect on other spells.

You admitted quite a few threads back that it breaks dominate. Keep your story straight.

[Zenako]

Ta =)


So in short like a one charge spell mantle i guess. Is HS checked prior to or after the save is made? I.e. is it possible to use a lvl1 scroll to remove it?

Think so, it seems pretty certain that the HS is the first line of defense, you see no indication of a save roll even being made when the HS intercepts that first CC spell/effect.

I'm not that sure anymore...given that they're not 20s blanket immunity and the wishcrafting that they can tweak surges to have more than 1 charge before being removed. Think it could possibly open up some very interesting possibilities.

Sure, suggestion and break on damage cc will take a big hit, might be worth it though and fixing a few spells to not cause HS might be possible.

If you're playing fast/at low difficulties you will probably not notice it, if you're playing at higher difficulties you can always remove it and reapply spells. Would put more of a drain on mana though but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Plenty of ways they could tilt the balance back a bit, e.g. lower saves a bit so that the change would become cast leveldrain + cc to cast cc and later on possibly remove HS and cast cc again.

Another thing they could do would be to lower casting speed (cooldown before being able to cast another spell, I'm talkin to you) based on caster levels. Could possibly also lower spell point costs.

The problem then becomes how to change each spell and balance it. Clearly what they were trying to do was create a one size fits all solution to the perceived complaint about being under a CC effect by some players. However, it is my opinion that this fix is far worse than the problem. Most of the time someone ended up under the effects of a CC type effect, it was because they took no options to avoid it. Dogs and Air Elementals can safely be defeated without ever giving them a chance to knock you down, but many players simply chose to limit their options to just a brute melee solution and then complain about the knockdown.

[Favis]

QFT on this topic. Though there's probably somebody in here who loves the idea of eliminating crowd control as a concept.

Wonder what the impact will be to the cleric/FvS population outside of soloing from this change? No CC is extremely painful on healers.

Generic MMO holy trinity: Tank/DPS/Heal.

Would be much more boring for Wiz, Bard and some Sorc with weak CC.
And it would also more boring for many cleric/FvS as they would be even more put into "only" healing.

Potentialy making people less incline to play cleric/FvS outside guilds so in the end creating problem for most classes that are not self-going.

[Aashrym]

Lamannia is pretty empty.

I just played around some more with my wizzie. My mana pool drops fast and I noticed another issue that I do not like.

Extend Spell cost the extra SP for some offensive CC spells that was comletely wasted in the SP cost casting. It's pointless to extend spell that will drop at that same time regardless of duration we should be seeing.

That is going to take another hotbar toggle with some spells to save SP or maybe they should be removed from the extend list. Didn't like it.

[Kemoc]

Lamannia is pretty empty.

I just played around some more with my wizzie. My mana pool drops fast and I noticed another issue that I do not like.

Extend Spell cost the extra SP for some offensive CC spells that was comletely wasted in the SP cost casting. It's pointless to extend spell that will drop at that same time regardless of duration we should be seeing.

That is going to take another hotbar toggle with some spells to save SP or maybe they should be removed from the extend list. Didn't like it.

That raises a very interesting point. What about those that chose the Extend feat. That is an expensive thing to change out.