Crowd Control/Heroic Surge Feedback

[SableShadow]

Actually, "every other MMOs" have a more complex combat system in terms of strategy than DDO by requiring tanking, aggro management, crowd control, cooldown management, etc.

...which you can get to, from a developer's perspective, by simplifying the effective character generation and equipping options. Str + Con is how they're headed in DDO. I'm a lot of things, blind isn't on the list. :P

whereas we only have to bother about hitting monsters really hard and having an healer there to heal us.

...which is the direction we're headed. Look, wishcraft all you want about what Turbine *could* do with this change, I have to look back at all the same arguments that were made as a apology for Grazing.

That's sad part of it all. Though, like you said, we have the twitch gaming which is really where the complexity is in DDO.

...which this doesn't take us any closer to.

The biggest single problem with the DnD ruleset (and there are many) is the extent by which you can min/max characters. Stir in a high magic world, effectively endless questing opportunities, no DM, and the sky is the limit.

Look, feel free to argue those points all you want, you'll be arguing with yourself.

Pushed the button already, will F2P some Shrouds and ToDs to round Brenna out, spec her over to a Str build (since +4 to hit/reflex/will saves aren't what they used to be), and call it done.

C'ya on the other side.

[Borror0]

...which you can get to, from a developer's perspective, by simplifying the effective character generation and equipping options. Str + Con is how they're headed in DDO.

Fair point. I didn't consider it from this angle.

Look, wishcraft all you want about what Turbine *could* do with this change

Like Lorien said, even if we did tell them to scrap it, do you really think they will? Me neither.

[Lleren]

feedback doesn't require an alternative to heroic surge, a person can say, "It sucks." and that's it, it sucks. there's your feedback.

The developers can't do anything with "It sucks". The declaration "it sucks" or other paraphrases give the developers nothing to work with or around. Feedback including why, and specifics with aspects of the game this change breaks are very imortant. Every post with "it sucks" and no explanation why is simply forum noise. With net benefit to the "I love this change because X" side.

Simply posting "it sucks" harms thier side.

[zealous]

You're assuming we're at a frequency that is too high right now, which I disagree. With the exception of wolves and air elementals, we get hit by far too little CC effects. The game would be better if we got it by more CC effects, and a greater range of them. Thing is, if they do that we would be CC'd very often because the effects can last pretty long which means it's possible to be perma-CC'd even at a low proc rate.

No, it's more due to enemy casters being somewhat rare and predictable. Plenty of encounters with only melee mobs, few encounters with only casters. Enemy casters do go spamety spam, they possibly need better priorities though.

Players wouldn't be CC'd very often nor be perma CC'd due to the same facts that this rarely happens in current game play. Players can has saves. Players can send the one with the good saves against the casters. Players can distract the casters through various means. Players can equip items warding against spells.

The kitten is not a lion.

The power level of a spell is largely determine by the environment in which it is used. If all end game quests had respawns that could be stopped by Flesh to Stone'ing them all, the end game would become ridiculously easy if the quests were balanced around the assumption the mobs would keep respawning for 15 minutes even though Flesh to Stone might be neither underpowered nor overpowered.

Completely irrelevant, that is currently not the case.

Additionally, heroic surge would not change anything under such a scenario.
A. You can kite them during the surge and then restone them, "just more mana pots required".
B. You can skip stoning them and just kite them, use intim if they're dead set on a different target. Diversion
C. You just kill them since that's generally faster anyway.

The same applies all spells and, in this case, all CC spells. If they can be landed reliable, then the battlefield become very predictable. That's just one of the effects it has, by definition. If you make them shorter, it permits the developers to allow them to hit more often.

Let me get this straight, if in some distant future, content is added in which you have freely available mana and easily cc'd mobs. Then cc that would be usable would be op. In what way is that relevant?

Spells have different effects, they are already balanced by duration. E.g. fascinate is completely negated by AoEs, hypno breaks on damage, some spells only works on some mobs etc. etc.

Let me reiterate, they are already balanced by durations. With heroic surges many spells will have the same duration. That makes things more predictable.

Spells can currently be balanced by saves, SR, casting time and mana availability. Since mana pots are readily available that part of balancing which at least to me seemed very core DDO back in mod0 is out the window.

Tweaking saves, SR and spells having reoccuring saves or not should be enough, disparities in "haves" and "have nots" does make it somewhat problematic though. If it is so great as to warrant tweaking it should preferably be done without breaking current balancing of spells.

IMPORTANT --> A flaw that can be corrected cannot be used as an argument to prove the system should be scrapped. <-- IMPORTANT

If you see a flaw that you feel should be addressed, tell them. This thread has the word "feedback" in its title for a reason.

I would kindly recommend that you read this and this post, featured in this same thread.

The short summary would be that they contains specifications on what I believe is flawed and suggestions on how it could possibly be amended. In those same posts I also clearly state that I...
IMPORTANT -->
IMPORTANT -->
IMPORTANT -->

I'm all in favor of bringing surges, as they are as long as a reasonable explanation is given, even if it's just "We need to test it and tweak it".

<-- IMPORTANT
<-- IMPORTANT
<-- IMPORTANT

When the problem is common to all CC effects, you make a global change.

But it isn't common to all CC effects is it.

Casters have a few tricks that work well. Instant death things, persistant AoE damage and to a lesser extent persistant AoE CC. Other than that, what cc is so good it can readily be compared to

If all end game quests had respawns that could be stopped by Flesh to Stone'ing them all, the end game would become ridiculously easy if the quests were balanced around the assumption the mobs would keep respawning for 15 minutes even though Flesh to Stone might be neither underpowered nor overpowered.

[Pyromaniac]

Another pro-melee change that harms casters again. My feedback is that whoever makes these decisions doesn't play casters and loves their melee.

I'd like to suggest some enhancements for all melee types that seem to be in line with the anti-caster development ideas:

1 action point: 50% ongoing increase in attack speed
2 action points: 100% ongoing increase in attack speed
3 action points: 150% ongoing increase in attack speed, +50% melee damage
4 action points: 200% ongoing increase in attack speed, +100% melee damage

Outside of Shroud, it is extremely difficult to find bards for raiding anymore. Why? The bab combat change. Now its time to ensure there aren't any sorcs/wizards around.

[SimVerg]

Here's the problem with heroic surge for monsters(especially at higher difficulties); it applies a one size fits all solution inaptly. Duration is an important balance variable; negating it almost entirely(I'm sure there is some sub 30 second CC that will be brought up) is lazy design. Either scale the Surge counter by the duration of the effect or the type of the effect.

p.s. The supposed target of the fix(Air Elemental spam knockdown) isn't actually fixed by it. While the air elemental may not be able to reapply the trip effect until you get up, it certainly can sit on top of you until you get up and *then* reapply it. I haven't done terribly extensive testing and I have yet to see a player be effected by a surge, but I sure have seen them killed by being spam knocked down while other monsters kill them!

edit: I should note that I think quite a bit of the complaining about Surges is overblown. Unless you're running on epic frequently, or using weird(or specialized ala Desert Caravan...they should just rename that thing from its current title of "Read A Book for 15 minutes" to "Don't run this quest") tactics, you won't see them.

[Kriogen]

(i didn't read all posts)

If CC is now less effective, do casters get spell point regeneration?

Well, getting CC immunity after you have been CC'd is OK, perma stun-lock is not fun, really not fun. But because of that, CC spells are now less effective, so casters have been nerfed.

Many games have this "trip immune after you have been triped" and its good so. But those games also have some sort of mana regeneration. This is important. Im not very good with words, but it goes like: you start with CC to slow down mobs, then add some damage, ... CC again when "immune" is over... out-of-mana in first encounter?

Just one at-will spell that only necro Wizard gets is not enough. What about sorc, not necro wizzy, cleric, fvs, bard? Are those classes now just fancy buff and heal bots?

I'm pro "immune after trip", but you must also implement something in return for casters. Mana regen or free mana pots or meditate like monks. Something?

[shadosatblackphoenix]

(i didn't read all posts)

If CC is now less effective, do casters get spell point regeneration?

Well, getting CC immunity after you have been CC'd is OK, perma stun-lock is not fun, really not fun. But because of that, CC spells are now less effective, so casters have been nerfed.

Many games have this "trip immune after you have been triped" and its good so. But those games also have some sort of mana regeneration. This is important. Im not very good with words, but it goes like: you start with CC to slow down mobs, then add some damage, ... CC again when "immune" is over... out-of-mana in first encounter?

Just one at-will spell that only necro Wizard gets is not enough. What about sorc, not necro wizzy, cleric, fvs, bard? Are those classes now just fancy buff and heal bots?

I'm pro "immune after trip", but you must also implement something in return for casters. Mana regen or free mana pots or meditate like monks. Something?

You're not even immune after trip with this change in actual practice: as people pointed out, an air elemental will just sit on you, and knock you back down right after your immunity goes away, which won't let you do much, aside maybe does a Quickened Cure Serious if you're a healer.

And for that, we pay the price of having pseudo-resistable irresistable dance, and spells that have bogus durations. The Dominate Person/Dominate Monster spell line? Useless now.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Borro0 and Turbine have one thing in common for sure, NOBODY agrees with them.

This change is upsetting a lot of people not only bards. This will negatively affect ALL classes in one way or another.

This equals the single worst idea of a nerf in the 4 years I've been playing. It is by far the most dangerous nerf I have ever seen, as it directly impacts or destroys so many spells and builds and game elements.

Turbine needs to LISTEN TO THE COMMUNITY, not just Borror0. Dump this bunk.

[zealous]

...which is the direction we're headed. Look, wishcraft all you want about what Turbine *could* do with this change, I have to look back at all the same arguments that were made as a apology for Grazing.

Slightly off topic but still quite relevant, grazing hit's...are they really that bad?

[rant]
They were initially slated as being due to "missing at low levels" iirc, players associated them with the DDO problem of AC existing in basicly 3 levels: none, crappy and untouchable.

It was stated that
This is a much gentler way of addressing some AC issues that DDO has than many other proposals.

Initially I was quite agitated, not because of the change itself, but for dev time having been spent on it. First off you can kill stuff with a str8 non-proficient, if not hitting stuff was the problem, then informing newcomers about non-proficiency and flanking/movement affect on AB would be better. Secondly, I couldn't see it making much of a change on the no vs. high AC issue.
50% of swings * 50% of base damage extra would in most scenarios only equate to me using a ss clicky earlier. So what was the point?

This became even more confusing when the changes to BAB progression and veteran status was added, seeing as these changes pretty much removed the initially stated reason for the change.

I used to run one of those fancy monksplashes, and after I reached a certain level I basicly stopped grinding for the few extra points of achievable AC, I was pretty much not getting hit as it was. Getting more AC would only mean not using temporary AC boosts except for a few exceptions. I found it fun to have to juggle equipment in and out depending on situation/encounter, ac gear->dps gear->umd gear. Getting more AC at that point would only mean less variation and a less complex playstyle.

After playing around a bit with grazing hits I have found that I:
A. Notice being low on health
B. Notice taking damage
C. Don't really notice how much health is lost unless the attack results in A.

Thus with the grazing hits coming in now and then I have to be more attentive; was that a grazing hit or was it a real hit. Same goes for the offensive grazing hits; when you always hit you get some variation from the big crits, when you don't you get at least more variation than previously.

So even though I was initially skeptic they've grown on me, doesn't change much but makes things ever so slightly more interesting. Would still like the mobs to get some kind of progressive AB though...
[/rant]

Relating back to heroic surge:
How often does a held mob survive for 3 mins? For 30s even?
I mean if we really think about it the only time a mob survives very long you might be better off going in or a lower difficulty, or like the added challenge.

Heroic surge could be way, way better imo, don't think it will be all that bad either.
---
Heh, come to think about it if they make the heroic surge a tad longer, cc more prevalent/potent, and the time until heroic surge onset even shorter...we could have a "semi-turn based" difficulty ^^

[Lorien_the_First_One]

silly me, and here i thought profit was a motive.

i understand what you're saying Lorien.

then my feedback is this:

Dear Turbine,

Make it go away or I quit.

:P

The founder of WoW was once quoted in the press about this. He argued all MMOs should ignore this type of user feedback because WoW's experience was that this was an empty threat from more than 90% of users, and of those who left, more than half came back within a few months. Basically the type of player to make this claim was generally also the type of player that was overinvested/addicted and wasn't going anywhere. The actually hit on revenue was therefore negligable and they (WoW dev/marketting folks) found it was best to do what they thought was in the long term best interest of the game.

On the other hand if they can find contructive feedback and improvements they can still do what's in the best interests of the game while making their idea more effective and increasing user buying, dropping that tiny revenue loss to almost nothing.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

This change is upsetting a lot of people not only bards. This will affect negatively affect ALL classes in one way or another.

I agree this is a bad idea. I had been planning to either TR or LR+3 my Bard who was a bit of a "jack of all trades master of none" build into something that was a little more CC focussed to take advantage of the bard capstone. This change seems to take us in the opposite direction so now I probably won't bother to change her. I suppose I could DPS focus her a bit more, but that doesn't seem worth the cost of LR or TR.

My Wiz also enjoys doing CC, and he'll be very unhappy with this change as well.

I don't understand the need for this change. As it impacts players I get that the game is being "simplified" to make soloing easier and to require less skill and cooperative play. I don't agree with the change, but I get it. The immunity to repeated knockdown is something that makes sense, but it sounds like that hasn't even been done effectively.

But why is this needed at all on the monster side? I'd love to hear any dev feedback about why this is needed.

In another thread I talked about Turbine needing to give us more options, this is yet another case where our options are being reduced, and that reduces the fun factor. CC is now less viable, and certain spell choices lose their reason to exist.

Please, either leave the CC as it is, make the change just on the player side, or don't kick it in on the monster side for a longer period of time.

[Zenako]

In limited observations, Heroic Surge seems to kick in for players on around the same timeframes as it does mobs (but this is harder to tell). When fighting the Maralith in the new quest, I got a surge sometime after I was first overrun and knocked down. Once that happened, it seemed to start the timer, so even thou I got up a tossed a few spells on occasion, was not able to move far enough away to get out of knockdown/overrun range, until the surge hit. Since I was a Cleric with Quicken, I was able to HEAL myself a few times along the way. Was I another character without quickened heals, I would probably have been dead long before the surge would have kicked in.

No sure how timers on surges accumulate.

With Flesh to Stone and the mobs saving after about 20 seconds, I was able to respam FtS on them when they broke free via a normal save. However, once the accumulated time hit the Heroic Surge benchmark, POP, surge. So on Elite, that meant that around 1 minute after first getting hit with the spell, and then 2 or 3 more CC spells since that first one, HS pulses and breaks all CC. It does not seem to be based on the timer of the current spell, but from the point of when the CC first started.

Some debuffs do not seem to be affected (like ray of Enfeeblement, or Energy Drain) by surges.

Just to check, it seems to affect cleric spells like Greater Command as well.

So unless Surge protection stacks and gets saved up, from what I saw, the benefit to players will be hard to realize in most cases since we will either be dead or the battle over before it goes off (unless you have certain abilities).

Beating on a FtS mob does not seem to speed up the onset of a surge. Beating on a Held mob does not speed things up either. So it does not seem to be triggered by factors like imminent death, just time.

With the flat rate timing, it makes Feats Like Extend pretty pointless for CC at many levels. So I hear the justification now. "You can save 10 SP by not extending those effects since the mob will break free before then anyway. We just made CC less costly to cast."

Heroic surges appear to be symetrical at this point. We need to have a few more trying out things in various PvP pits to speed things up, but when you are one of 3 toons on the server, and the others are low level REZ's (I am assuming), it makes it hard.

[mavannas]

Not one relevant to class balance. It could last half the time and fascinate would be as powerful

Wrong, it is especially relevant to class balance, if the point I was trying to ask about HS kicking in at fixed time (regardless of CC spell being used) is really true.

Consider the case that some CC wizard could use 4 x 1 min CC spell to get 4 minutes of CC against Bards 1 song with 4 minutes. As the cutoff point seems fixed, bards song with higher cost (a single song) vs 4 times the mana. In fact, casting 4 times 1 min CC (with small delays between spells to allow HS to wear off) would still result in close to 4 minutes of CC with the EXACT same spell cost. This is why I was asking if the HS effect is based on the spell/songs its interrupting, if its not, this is definetly a nerf to bard song since it has the longest (?) duration. Bards do not really have the option of _spamming_ songs. You only have so little, and there are no potions to get them back.

I wish I had a decent level CC wizard to actually test it myself.

ps. the point being made is irrelevant of actual times the spells/songs last, but just the difference of one being significantly longer and therefore I did not make any effort to check real lasting times of CC spells

[mavannas]

Has anyone tested paralyzing weapons?

I'm just wondering if I should sell that Paralyzing Longsword before this update hits live, since their price is sure to drop if using them just makes mobs to surge quicker. While this is probably a huge nerf to them, I cannot really defend Paralyzing weapons since they seem to be overtly powerful compared to most other enchantements.

/Repe of Orien (15 Bard WC)

[Zenako]

Wrong, it is especially relevant to class balance, if the point I was trying to ask about HS kicking in at fixed time (regardless of CC spell being used) is really true.

Consider the case that some CC wizard could use 4 x 1 min CC spell to get 4 minutes of CC against Bards 1 song with 4 minutes. As the cutoff point seems fixed, bards song with higher cost (a single song) vs 4 times the mana. In fact, casting 4 times 1 min CC (with small delays between spells to allow HS to wear off) would still result in close to 4 minutes of CC with the EXACT same spell cost. This is why I was asking if the HS effect is based on the spell/songs its interrupting, if its not, this is definetly a nerf to bard song since it has the longest (?) duration. Bards do not really have the option of _spamming_ songs. You only have so little, and there are no potions to get them back.

I wish I had a decent level CC wizard to actually test it myself.

ps. the point being made is irrelevant of actual times the spells/songs last, but just the difference of one being significantly longer and therefore I did not make any effort to check real lasting times of CC spells

A lot of my testing was with a level 20 CC speced out WIZard. Both Spell Focus Enchantment, and Greater Spell Focus Enchanment. Her standing DC is 35 with most CC spells. (Also have Heighten.)

The Surge timers appear to solely be based on quest setting (Normal, Hard, Elite, Epic) etc and have nothing to do with spell durations. You can hit a mob with 20 second spells and late in the third one, (on Elite) the surge happens (around 1 minute from the first CC spell landing). The Surge lasts until it negates another CC spell. It can last for over 20 seconds, but seems to be gone by the time 30 has passed.

The quickest way to get it gone, is just spam a cheap CC spell it the mob as soon as it breaks, to consume the surge protection and then land whatever else you want for the rest of that next minute. 3 (or more) spells to do what one used to accomplish.

[mavannas]

The quickest way to get it gone, is just spam a cheap CC spell it the mob as soon as it breaks, to consume the surge protection and then land whatever else you want for the rest of that next minute. 3 (or more) spells to do what one used to accomplish.

I rest my case for Bard nerf.

/Repe of Orien (15 Bard WC)

[calvinklien]

The founder of WoW was once quoted // dropping that tiny revenue loss to almost nothing.

i believe it.

but see, i don't get paid to figure out how to make the game better, i pay, so turbine can find ways to make the game better. sure i'm into the game, that's why i'm a vip, that's why i read the forums for upcoming changes. but i quit smoking cigarettes after 15 years, i'm pretty sure i can give up a fun game, which in my mind, is ruined/not fun if HS is implemented anyways.

they want feedback, fair enough: I say "The Heroic Surge effect sucks, i think DDO is ok the way it is, and if it's the future of DDO i'm outtie. thanks for trying, NEXT?"

it doesn't matter if they think it's an empty threat. money is the language turbine, or WoW, or AAA MMO listen to. the way they really "hear" you is when you click that unsubscribe button. i'm simply warning them the fundamental change heroic surge represents, the absolute nerf of many classes and build designs, might cost them actual dollars. in my case it already has, my 2 buds dropped it like a brick (one was about to "get bored" of it anyways, the other who only played bards looked like he caught his girlfriend cheating on him and unsubscribed, poor ba$tard)

i'm a little more patient, i'm waiting to see what's said on this thread, and waiting to see if it will infact go live in its current state.

[Shandi]

I've been testing this on and off for a few days and say that I have not noticed a change drastic enough to light the torches and gather up the pitchforks. Yes it got changed and well I will just adapt my play style around it. Just like death and taxes are guaranteed in real life; change is the death/taxes of an MMO.

Let me say that I am a non-TR'd human sorcerer that is fire/ice specced with no spell focus feats and only a few CC spells (web, otto's irresistible dance, flesh to stone, halt undead and to a lesser extent waves of exhaustion). I didn't use my Dreamspitter to pump up my DCs because well it wouldn't have been relevant anyway. My DC for all spells with heighten is a 34. Now that a baseline has been established let me also reiterate that these are MY OWN FINDINGS if you have a higher or lower DC then expect different results, better or worse.

The following feedback reflects all the CC spells I have your mileage may vary and of course I cannot comment on spells I don't have. I don't like to talk about things I know nothing about

General Observations:
I have not seen a mob break out of flesh to stone in 10 seconds or a mob even on epic break out of Otto's dance on anything less than 30 seconds. They seem to break out of web faster but that spell always was hit or miss unless the mob was exhausted. And guess what? Hitting it with exhaustion makes them webbed for a longer period of time. Perhaps I am doing something wrong here.

Otto's Irresistible Dance:
My otto's irresistible dance on my sorcerer is lasting at least 30 seconds, 6 seconds more than the min time it says on my spell description on drow in epic von 3, gnolls in epic wiz-king and the WF in epic von 4. It also usually lasts for its entire duration on the gnolls in the desert and devils in the vale of twilight, and if it's not the entire duration I have yet to see it last for less than 40 seconds. Yes after a little while they heroic surge out of it and you either need to kill the mob or apply a different type of cc.

Flesh to Stone:
Flesh to stone has been cut down yes but leaving up a mob permanently then not killing it always seemed silly to me. Yes that also included the orthons in tod heh. Hitting them with my puncturing weapons did not make them break out faster. 30-45 seconds seemed to be the average time. Epic mobs would break out faster but that is because they are also gaining back their negative levels (I don't know about anyone else but I have not had too much success stoning a mob without hitting it with energy drain a couple times first)

Halt Undead:
Works the same as before. Smart undead seem to break out a little faster but the stupid mindless ones just sit there and let you beat on them until they are destroyed. Smart ones still break out once you hit them once. Tested this on undead in necrop explorer area, in elite temple of vol and in epic wiz-king (that was a little interesting trying to out run those clay golems! ) Stupid undead in the desert explorer area stared at me for more than 2 minutes and smart ones would break out around the 2 minute mark. I didn't really want to wait all 4 minutes of the entire duration because let's face it there are almost no encounters were you need a CC spell to last 4 full minutes.

Web:
My bread and butter staple cc spell. It's my personal favorite spell in the game and it still works! Shocking I know. Especially if you exhaust the mobs first. The real test imo would be bastion of power on elite or any of the amrath quests on elite so that's what I did. Yep they save against it a lot but those guys have enormous saves to begin with. If you exhaust them then it gets better. Heroic Surge on web seems to happen the fastest of all the CC spells I tested but that is because (I'm assuming here) there are more checks against breaking out of it faster than the other spells. Also elite bearded devils in bastion hurt...a lot I would say the average time a mob would stay webbed is about 10-15 seconds. Exhausted mobs would last a little longer, sometimes.

Note: It is my understanding that you experience the heroic surge effect based on # of saves for a certain type of cc. So it would make sense that webbed mobs get heroic surge on this spell the fastest.

Blanket statement for heroic surge for mobs:
When the mobs did heroic surge, and it did happen, they would become immune to the current CC type for approximately 2 seconds. During this time if I tried to say reapply dance to them I would get the blue sparkly immunity effect and the mob would continue to kick my butt. Applying a different type of CC would start their timer for a different type of CC.

CC against me:
As for mobs doing it to me I have noticed that if you have a balance check of at least a 10 then wind elementals don't even blow you around, even if you fail the save. I can't get to the epic wind elementals in chains by myself nor the djinn in epic wiz king to test this for sure.

Tripping mobs seem to be coded to actually trip less and the trip usually lasts for 2-3 seconds. It seems that Balance is once again more relevant, I'm sure most toons can afford 2-3 ranks into Balance. If not then you can always get to at least 10 this way

6 dex item even to an 8 dex is at least a +2
GH is +4
any kind of luck item +1 or +2

That's 7-8 balance right there. And if you know that you are going to go up against something that trips/knocks you around then setting a side a slot to get at least a +11 balance item is a good idea. Which bumps you up to 18-19. Note: I am not saying that it DOESNT happen with these values of balance I am saying that you get up faster / save more often if your balance is higher.

Getting to a 10 balance even without any ranks is pretty easy to obtain.

Now I did all this testing with Shandi my sorc who after a greater reincarnation had a 9 dex, 7 ranks into balance, and GH. That's a 10 balance.

I tested all quests on elite or epic to minimize as much as I could dungeon scaling. I also used hirelings when I was out in the explorer areas and elite quests to try to pump it up a little more. The average population of lama at the times I was playing was about 3 so making a full party was impossible.

tl;dr CC has been changed but it's not the end of the world. Extend for cc is probably not as needed anymore which is nice because it will save on some SP in the long run if you wish to micromanage when the Extend Metamagic feat is on or not.

edit: fixed spelling somewhat

[Borror0]

But why is this needed at all on the monster side? I'd love to hear any dev feedback about why this is needed.

Flesh to Stone.

As for the rest, it rarely has any effect except on charm effects and that might not really be a bad thing since it's a pretty powerful effect. The rest of the time, how likely are you to fight the same non-named mob for 1 minute? Rarely, if ever. So, it won't really have an effect on other spells.