Seriously confused

[Visty]

It seems a waste to use the Barb as a ranged toon... x6 Crits, you say?

This line of thought intrigues me, please elaborate.

Point Blank is a pre-req, and ANY ranged build would need Manyshot and Precise Shot.

I should probably look into that further.

Thanks again for your CONSTRUCTIVE input.

the crits come from the frezied berserker prestige enhancement. you get +2critmultiplier while in rage everytime and another +1 if you crit on a 19-20 (which bows do all the time anyway, thats why its x6 [x3+3])
precise shot might look good, but imo its not really needed, considering trash mobs you can vorpal and boss mobs you cant line up

my build will be the following (ignore the cha tome, that is just to make up for the TR buildpoints...was making it befor 34pts were in the planner)

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Elf Male
(1 Fighter \ 18 Barbarian \ 1 Bard) 
Hit Points: 312
Spell Points: 90 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 12
Will: 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             17                    22
Dexterity            17                    19
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence          8                    10
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma              9                    11

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 1
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               7                    22
Bluff                 0                     0
Concentration         2                     3
Diplomacy             0                     0
Disable Device       n/a                    n/a
Haggle                4                     4
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  3                     4
Intimidate            0                     0
Jump                  6                     9
Listen                3                     6
Move Silently         3                     4
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                     0
Search               -1                     2
Spot                 -1                     1
Swim                  3                     6
Tumble                4                     5
Use Magic Device      4                    23

Level 1 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot


Level 2 (Barbarian)


Level 3 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Rapid Shot


Level 4 (Barbarian)


Level 5 (Barbarian)


Level 6 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons


Level 7 (Barbarian)


Level 8 (Barbarian)


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Bow Strength
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack


Level 10 (Barbarian)


Level 11 (Barbarian)


Level 12 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Manyshot


Level 13 (Barbarian)


Level 14 (Barbarian)


Level 15 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 16 (Barbarian)


Level 17 (Barbarian)


Level 18 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons


Level 19 (Barbarian)


Level 20 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost IV
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Arrows
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack III
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage IV
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker III
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Attack I
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Attack II
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Damage I
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Damage II
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +2 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution II

[ProdigalGuru]

I though this one might be really fun to play.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Buffy McGee
Level 20 Lawful Good Elf Female
(20 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 162
Spell Points: 1703 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 7
Reflex: 11
Will: 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             14                    15
Dexterity            16                    19
Constitution         12                    12
Intelligence         16                    24
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma              8                     8

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               5                    15
Bluff                -1                    -1
Concentration         5                    26
Diplomacy             1                    10
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -1                    -1
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  3                     4
Intimidate           -1                    -1
Jump                  2                     2
Listen               -1                     7
Move Silently         3                     4
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                3                     7
Search                3                     9
Spot                  0                    12
Swim                  2                     2
Tumble                4                     5
Use Magic Device      1                    10

Level 1 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot


Level 2 (Wizard)


Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons


Level 4 (Wizard)


Level 5 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise


Level 7 (Wizard)


Level 8 (Wizard)


Level 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Bow Strength


Level 10 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Enlarge Spell
Enhancement: Elven Arcanum I
Enhancement: Elven Arcanum II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Attack I
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Attack II
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Damage I
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Damage II
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Quickening I
Enhancement: Wizard Concentration I
Enhancement: Wizard Concentration II
Enhancement: Wizard Concentration III
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II


Level 11 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Elven Arcanum III


Level 12 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer I


Level 13 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +2 Arrows
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III


Level 14 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Elven Arcanum IV


Level 16 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +3 Arrows


Level 17 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +4 Arrows


Level 18 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Rapid Shot
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration II


Level 19 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III


Level 20 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Eschew Materials
Enhancement: Wizard Master of Magic
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Enlarge I
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +5 Arrows

The feats and enhancements are off because the planner does not accept Mental Toughness as a Metamagic. With some adjustment, I should be able to JUST fit in Manyshot.

[ProdigalGuru]

Get a grip on what? Your build is gimped, deal with it.
If you still like it and don't mind contributing way less than you could, sure keep playing it, but the fact that it's gimped doesn't change.

No one mind a free rider, right?

Get haste boost IV and extra boost II.

You are not helping, at all. Telling me this build is gimped, without any evidence to support it, reeks of "my way is the only way".

I have not built this character in anything but the planner, reading comprehension would have given you that info.

Feel free to stop posting in this thread, with Hokiewa.

I have heard what you have to say, I just do not respect your opinion, sorry, it's gimped.

[ProdigalGuru]

Visty, I think you actually get what I am trying to accomplish, and this Bowbarian (pretty sure I have read that somewhere) seems pretty strong. I must assume that Cleave is pre-req to FBIII. Why no capstone? Isn't that +2 STR? I can see how there is a lot of synergy, and the damage would be pretty high. How does this build compare to Fighter Kensei and Pure Ranger builds damage-wise?

The only negative feedback I have is that it seems to not make use of a lot of the Barb's strengths, like Toughness and Damage Reduction, but then they should not be as necessary, being at long range and all. I might actually have to roll one up and play it to see if it has the feel I am going for.

Thanks again for your continued input, and not getting put off by my mob of hecklers.

[Aaxeyu]

You are not helping, at all. Telling me this build is gimped, without any evidence to support it, reeks of "my way is the only way".

I have not built this character in anything but the planner, reading comprehension would have given you that info.

Feel free to stop posting in this thread, with Hokiewa.

I have heard what you have to say, I just do not respect your opinion, sorry, it's gimped.

There are a billion threads explaining why ranged combat is inferior to melee.

It's too slow, TWF attacks faster and gets 2 attacks on every swing (even more if you have tempest 3), THF gets glancing blows and higher str bonus, and attacks even faster.

If you don't mind a subpar build, go ahead and make it.

[ProdigalGuru]

And yet, this thread is dedicated to ranged builds in general.

I do not care about your opinion on how weak it is, and it is obvious that you put a lot less emphasis on the FUN in this game than I do.

I have read many of the threads you are referring to, and I find them very narrow-minded. This game has 20 levels, not just 20th level. Also, the situational nature of combat precludes any ACCURATE DPS measurement. Compound that with no consideration for INCOMING damage, environmental hazards, movement/target acquisition times, and general utility, and it leaves ranged combat viable IMO.

Nobody has PROVEN anything, in my book, and I am getting sick of people stating their opinion as fact.

Either contribute to the discussion with something constructive, or refrain from posting.

Again, I am not interested in ANYONE's opinion of how gimped Bows are, OK? I think that opinion is SHORT-SIGHTED when you consider that TWO ranged PrE's are not implemented yet. Do you understand?

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

I really wish that when I asked questions on the forums, that 80% of the answers did not reply as if I had brain damage.

You are making a ranged focus character, what do you expect us to think?

[ProdigalGuru]

You know what, you are right. You have convinced me. Ranged combat sucks. And since it was what I enjoyed playing, I guess I will have to stop.

Thanks for making it easy for me to choose another game.

Goodbye.

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

You are not helping, at all. Telling me this build is gimped, without any evidence to support it, reeks of "my way is the only way".

All ranged builds are gimp compared to any other build. That's not opinion, it's a fact of life in this game. The only thing that will change it is coding changes by the devs. This has been the case since the start of the game over 3 years ago.

The people pointing that out to you are trying to help you. Ranged focus chars often get shunned in groups.


And the biggest mistake you are making with your attitude is that you are forming your opinion based on what you imagine ranged combat is like in this game, while ignoring the conclusions of the people who have played it for 3 years. That's just weak.

[ProdigalGuru]

So I guess it's off to Everquest, then. Thanks for clearing that up that I was wasting my time with this game.

I will just be going now.

Cya

[rpasell]

All ranged builds are gimp compared to any other build. That's not opinion, it's a fact of life in this game.

Really? I've been playing for 3 years. It's opinion, not fact.

[EazyWeazy]

You know what, you are right. You have convinced me. Ranged combat sucks. And since it was what I enjoyed playing, I guess I will have to stop.

Thanks for making it easy for me to choose another game.

Goodbye.

You gotta have a thick skin to post around here, especially when you are trying something that 98% of players have given up as sub-par. Give back less attitude and engage the people willing to discuss the concept with you instead of getting 'bent' about it.

[ProdigalGuru]

I would like to refer you to your own sig.

I have entertained your opinion, and I do not accept it.

I have only gotten an attitude with those that are insistent on telling me my opinion is not valid.

I have had enough of the elitist know-it-alls, and I should not need thick skin to post on this subject, as it should not get heated.

I have made my opinion and play style very clear, and have not asked for opinions about ranged combat viability.

But since people insist that my play style is useless, there is no reason for me to stick around.

Mission accomplished, I hope you are all proud of yourselves.

Guru OUT!

[rpasell]

The easiest thing to do is ignore the "ranged is gimp" garbage. Play the character, and see for yourself how viable it is. If you are like me, you'll find it's perfectly viable, and fun to play.

[hermespan]

I have been playing D+D since 1st Edition AD+D, the concept of "class" is well within my scope of understanding, thank you very much.

I'm not going to get into the ranged vs. melee debate because it's apples to oranges and in some quests (especially mid-end game) ranged can make the difference between people dying (or using up a ton of mana pots and scrolls) and the quest going smooth. Saying melee is better than ranged is like saying paper is better than rock or scissors. It simply doesn't compute.

I've played TWF, tank, and caster to end game and healer to mid game. All I know is the average TWFer can't play their character. Paper AC, obsessed with kill count, and no tactics whatsoever. In parties with a real tank and and a skilled archer, I have spell points left when I hit the shrine. In parties full of TWF, as a healer, I'm on a wand in the average quest about half way to the next shrine.

A party without an archer in mid-end game is a party that will be sucking down gallons of mana pots. End of story. Turbine is smart enough to capitalize on and encourage this idiotic behavior by selling mana pots.

If your view of the game is so narrow that you could possibly think an apple is better than an orange, I definitely don't want to play with you.

Nowadays If I get into a party with more than one TWF, and I'm playing a caster or healer, I get wife agro immediately and need to leave party (I'm divorced).

Sure TWF is better, for personal kill count. They suck for the party's well being about 95% of the time because they don't have the experience or the gear to do it right.

[GreenGurgler]

So I guess it's off to Everquest, then. Thanks for clearing that up that I was wasting my time with this game.

I will just be going now.

Cya

Please dont go, were all so sorry and we NEED you to stay, no we WANT you to stay!! DDO wont last without YOU!!... <watches ProdigalGuru hold his breath until he turns blue>

OK, enough with the silly 6year old dramatics, ok? You know you will get the same treatment one way or another in EQ, WOW, DDO, etc... so toughen up and deal with the hecklers. They wont go away because you act like a child so either try and engage them politely (I see that's what you think about my build but can you explain why??) or IGNORE THEM? Do you really think anyone ultimately cares if you leave because you were treated rudely in the forums (honestly, truly cares?? some will say they do but as soon as they walk away from the keyboard, they will forget all about you and your drama).

We get that YOU like the idea of playing an Arcane caster and you like to play the ranged style. We also get that you do not (did not at start of post, seems to have changed tune along the way) like the idea of not letting a pure melee class (fighter) be an ARCANE archer, you think it should be because you want it too. It isn't, you have adjusted and are now looking at other options.

BUT the core argument being thrown at you for NOT doing what you prefer (spec as ranged) is an opinion based in fact. Perhaps the opinion could be better explained than just saying "your build is Gimp", but the point is the same whether explained or not.

AS TURBINE HAS MADE THE GAME (options, fights, map layout, attack sequence, skills, feats, monsters difficulty, AI, etc...), ranged combat has a very limited usefulness in DDO. It also is well below the damage output of comparable classes (melee primarily). You state you are FINE with this and that your concerned with having FUN not being OPTIMAL, and that is your opinion and your choice to make.

However, understand you play this game in a group, not an isolated bubble (usually). Other team mates will expect certain things out of you leaning towards the optimal (your best possible contribution to the party for the role you play). Right now, anyone who has played the entire game from level 1 through 20 and perhaps made some alts can tell you that ranged play style does not bring enough to the table to make them worthy of a spot in a group. They could ALWAYS find a better fit instead of a ranger. That doesn't mean your ranger inst ok or that you aren't having fun playing him, but it means your team mates will probably prefer a different class than you.

You are free to play what you like, but understand the consequences that come from your decision: More groups than not will ignore you or dump you for a melee than will keep and accept you as a ranged build. This will become more and more apparent as you climb in levels.

Notice I never said he was gimped, never said you cant play, never said you will never get in a party but pointed out that 3 years of experience with DDO has taught most players that a ranged spec'ed toon are not worth their time. You will find your grouping options limited playing as a ranged player.

THAT is fact, take it or leave it.

But stop with the whiny "Im going to hold my breath until I get my way or you mean people go away" tactic because the mean people will stick around just to watch you pass out and make a fool of yourself. Plus, we can see the little green light next to your name telling us your still here!

[Angelus_dead]

OK, enough with the silly 6year old dramatics, ok? You know you will get the same treatment one way or another in EQ, WOW, DDO, etc... so toughen up and deal with the hecklers.

That's not completely true. There are some real differences in those other games, caused not by the player community but by the developer actions.

You see, in something like World of Warcraft, an imbalance like what happens with ranged combat in DDO just would not be allowed to stand. The developers would work hard to make sure that each primary character path was basically effective at its role.

In the event that a kind of WOW character just isn't reasonably effective (like a two-handed Frost DK or a Warlock tank), then the devs will come out and say so, unlike what happens in DDO where they pretend to be unaware of many kinds of problems.

[GreenGurgler]

I'm not going to get into the ranged vs. melee debate because it's apples to oranges and in some quests (especially mid-end game) ranged can make the difference between people dying (or using up a ton of mana pots and scrolls) and the quest going smooth. Saying melee is better than ranged is like saying paper is better than rock or scissors. It simply doesn't compute.

I've played TWF, tank, and caster to end game and healer to mid game. All I know is the average TWFer can't play their character. Paper AC, obsessed with kill count, and no tactics whatsoever. In parties with a real tank and and a skilled archer, I have spell points left when I hit the shrine. In parties full of TWF, as a healer, I'm on a wand in the average quest about half way to the next shrine.

A party without an archer in mid-end game is a party that will be sucking down gallons of mana pots. End of story. Turbine is smart enough to capitalize on and encourage this idiotic behavior by selling mana pots.

If your view of the game is so narrow that you could possibly think an apple is better than an orange, I definitely don't want to play with you.

Nowadays If I get into a party with more than one TWF, and I'm playing a caster or healer, I get wife agro immediately and need to leave party (I'm divorced).

Sure TWF is better, for personal kill count. They suck for the party's well being about 95% of the time because they don't have the experience or the gear to do it right.

You realize that by bailing on a group just because they have what you consider a sub optimal party makeup you are no better than those who will not group with a ranged player?? You don't know anything about those TWF players yet you instantly bail from a group (that you joined) because you didn't like the make up. Start your own party and only accept ONE TWF then. You are letting your group down.

I think by reading between the lines on the first half of your post that you feel the skill of the player means more than the build and that a well played ranged toon can be better than a poorly played TWF toon and I would agree with that. Skill is more important than anything else.

I would rate a players value based on the following criteria (from most to least important):

Player Attitude
Player Experience/Skill in DDO - the longer you play, the more you know
Player Experience/Skill in that class/race - see above
Player class build - your build is gimp/not gimp
Player Equipment - basic loot vs maxed out raid gear

IMHO, the more DDO experience the player has, the more they are likely to favor melees over ranged as over time, it generally is the better fit for the party (but I am biased by my own experiences over the past 3 years).

Also, I would advise the OP that the larger, older player base has adapted over the years to a play style that does prefer melees over ranged (because of Turbines tinker over the years and because of their experiences with ranged toons in general).

I would postulate that as you play with newer players (more open to trying diff things, less overall knowledgeable about how DDO works) the more willingness to using a ranged toon you will find. The more you play with veterans (more firmly set on what works best and most efficiently from their experience) the more you will find you are not wanted. These are just generalizations of course but over the larger populations, I feel confident that this is what you would find (there are always exceptions).

So what would I recommend to you who really enjoys playing ranged toons and don't want to be shunned or told your build is gimp? Start your own guild or start hanging with a set group of like minded players who can adapt to more of a ranged play style. If you do this consistently, they will all learn to play accordingly. Doing this with new players may work better for you as they are less entrenched in their play style and group dynamic.

But asking an established base who is biased against ranged (mostly, for long standing reasons that keep changing ) to accept you as you are is going to go nowhere fast.

Play what you like, but be willing to accept any consequences. Dont try and smash a square peg in a round hole.

[GreenGurgler]

That's not completely true. There are some real differences in those other games, caused not by the player community but by the developer actions.

You see, in something like World of Warcraft, an imbalance like what happens with ranged combat in DDO just would not be allowed to stand. The developers would work hard to make sure that each primary character path was basically effective at its role.

In the event that a kind of WOW character just isn't reasonably effective (like a two-handed Frost DK or a Warlock tank), then the devs will come out and say so, unlike what happens in DDO where they pretend to be unaware of many kinds of problems.

Cant argue with that, Turbine has chosen to ignore the imbalance.

They have tinkered with it off and on but ultimately have left it wanting. I was more referring top the fact that people will disagree with you in any game forum and of those who do, many will be rude. Just like life, everyone isn't nice and helpful so one has to learn how to cope.

[Creddi]

That's not completely true. There are some real differences in those other games, caused not by the player community but by the developer actions.

You see, in something like World of Warcraft, an imbalance like what happens with ranged combat in DDO just would not be allowed to stand. The developers would work hard to make sure that each primary character path was basically effective at its role.

In the event that a kind of WOW character just isn't reasonably effective (like a two-handed Frost DK or a Warlock tank), then the devs will come out and say so, unlike what happens in DDO where they pretend to be unaware of many kinds of problems.

But in EQ, archery has gone the same way as in DDO. There just aren't separate paths. Those in favour of ranged damage don't like to admit that range itself is an advantage. You don't have to close with an opponent and in many cases take a lot less damage by way of kiting. EQ has gone so far as to add summoning mobs, creatures that when agroed tp their top opponent into melee range to limit the benefits of kiting.

Balancing is not as simple as giving all paths equal offense.