First Build : Am I doing it right ?

[Nominoe]

Hello.

I'd like to have your advice on the build I made. It's a elf warchanter who's not just a fighter/singer but also use her bardic spells. I wanted this build to be efficient both in solo and group. So :

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
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Level 14 Chaotic Good Elf Female
(14 Bard) 
Hit Points: 158
Spell Points: 628 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 6
Reflex: 13
Will: 9

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 14)
Strength             14                    16
Dexterity            16                    18
Constitution         12                    14
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma             16                    22

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 14
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 14
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 14
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 14

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 14)
Balance               5                    12
Bluff                 3                     6
Concentration         5                    19
Diplomacy             3                     6
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle                3                     6
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  7                    21
Intimidate            3                     6
Jump                  4                    12
Listen               -1                     2
Move Silently         6                    20
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               7                    23
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                     1
Spot                 -1                     2
Swim                  2                     3
Tumble                4                     5
Use Magic Device      n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage I


Level 2 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I


Level 4 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack I


Level 5 (Bard)


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 7 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II


Level 8 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II


Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II


Level 10 (Bard)


Level 11 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III


Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I


Level 13 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II


Level 14 (Bard)
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack II

Actually I have two big concerns about this build.
-I've put dex to boost the AC, but since I go sword and broad (for the few more AC and damage reduction), I don't really know if it really was a good idea, even if I'm not disappointed of this choice yet (she's lvl 3).
-I think the saves are qite low. In fact, without stuff they're ridiculous. Is this normal for a bard or have I made a mistake ?

Of course, all feedbacks/criticisms are welcome

[Aaxeyu]

Elf was your first mistake. Dex based was your second.

If you want to get the most out of your bard I recommend you go human and start with 16 str 14 con and 18 cha, put level ups in cha.

Get the following feats:
1. Two handed fighting (THF)
1 (human). Weapon proficiency: Great axe
3. Weapon focus: Slashing
6. Power attack
9. Improved THF
12. Improved critical: slashing
15. Greater THF
18. Extend spell

You will be able to deal pretty good DPS and all your spells will work great.

But a build like this won't work well endgame, so just make lesser reincarnation and focus on either spell casting or melee dps.

[Nominoe]

Why is the fact of going elf a mistake ? I mean, if I chose to improve dex and concentrate more on skills with weapon finesse/reapeating crossbow, can i still be viable ?

[Aaxeyu]

Why is the fact of going elf a mistake ? I mean, if I chose to improve dex and concentrate more on skills with weapon finesse/reapeating crossbow, can i still be viable ?

Elfs gives nothing useful to a bard.
Dex have 1 use, and 1 use only, for a bard, to qualify for the TWF feats. But you only need 15 dex (and a +2 dex tome) for that and that is no problem to reach as a human.

If you go down that path, the only thing that will make you useful is your songs. It will probably be enough to get into groups but you will still be a gimp.

[BoBoDaClown]

Elf was your first mistake. Dex based was your second.

If you want to get the most out of your bard I recommend you go human and start with 16 str 14 con and 18 cha, put level ups in cha.

Get the following feats:
1. Two handed fighting (THF)
1 (human). Weapon proficiency: Great axe
3. Weapon focus: Slashing
6. Power attack
9. Improved THF
12. Improved critical: slashing
15. Greater THF
18. Extend spell

You will be able to deal pretty good DPS and all your spells will work great.

But a build like this won't work well endgame, so just make lesser reincarnation and focus on either spell casting or melee dps.

This build is a fun leveler (I had one very similar), but suffers endgame - without the str to dps and without the spell casting feats to land spells; the advantage being he/she can swap out all those combat feats for casting feats once he/sjhe is struggling.

I prefer to use Master's Touch for proficiency - but that really is personal preference - but he/she should try it.

[Braed]

I'll leave the race thing alone since I believe by itself race will never gimp a character.

That said, what are you going to take at 15 and 18 for feats? I'm only asking because I'm not sure how effective a caster you're going to be as nothing feat-wise in there is making your casting more potent. More SP sure, but no focus or pen feats selected.

Going S/B isn't a traditional build as AC on a bard is *possible* but will take a lot of gear and dedication on your part. Also keep in mind the spell failure you'll have to fix through gear while wearing a shield. Personally, *IF* I was going with a S/B WC, I'd focus on using stat/effect weapons backed by Cleave to make up for lack of extra attacks/glancing blows.

Also, no Heighten, Quicken, Extend in there. None of them are really mandatory, but rarely do builds skip ALL of them, especially when effective casting is a stated goal. You mentioned Weapon Finesse and I didn't see that either.

A high AC Bard with displacement, decent jump and nice active/passive DR sounds like fun. Maybe expand a little bit more on your concept.

[Nominoe]

Firstly, thanks for the feedbacks

"Maybe expand a little bit more on your concept. "

In fact I was inspired by this build made by Sigtrent and this one (in fact, the most part is the same, I only changed a feat and a few stats). Both seemed pretty fun to play, but I was more "fighting" than "casting", so I tried to make a mix of the two. I wanted a soloable and fun to play char which could be quite polyvalent and able to mesmerize ennemies, not as good as a virtuoso or a spellsinger, but efficiently enough for the skills to be useful. Also, I wanted to use the buffs spell such as displacement to empower myself and be more efficient in fight.
I put an high dex in order to enjoy the max dex bonus of light armors.

For the feats, I was thinking about skipping toughness and put extend spell or two wepaon fighting instead (and take a shortsword/dagger of backstabbing). I haven't really decided the 15th and 18th level feats yet. I was thinking of extend spell, improved two weapon fighting, maybe toughness/mental toughness...

Something I forgot, I was hoping my lack of spot/listening would not be a too big problem in this build.

And again, thanks for your feedbacks and advice

Edit : I'm also thinking to put strengh instead of charisma after lvl 4, which lead me to a nice charisma and a better str.

[Aaxeyu]

This build is a fun leveler (I had one very similar), but suffers endgame - without the str to dps and without the spell casting feats to land spells; the advantage being he/she can swap out all those combat feats for casting feats once he/sjhe is struggling.

Hence the reincarnation I mentioned

I prefer to use Master's Touch for proficiency - but that really is personal preference - but he/she should try it.

Yea, but that can cause annoying lag.

[BoBoDaClown]

Hence the reincarnation I mentioned



Yea, but that can cause annoying lag.

Absolutely - I get the annoying lag. I think people should try it because:
a) Aren't some people lag free with this spell?
b) You might come to the same conclusion I did - I prefer to have the feat and take the lag, but that is purely personal preference.

[Nominoe]

Update !

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 14 True Neutral Elf Female
(14 Bard) 
Hit Points: 132
Spell Points: 539 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 6
Reflex: 12
Will: 9

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 14)
Strength             14                    18
Dexterity            15                    16
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma             13                    16

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 14
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 14

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 14)
Balance               5                    13
Bluff                 1                     3
Concentration         6                    19
Diplomacy             1                     3
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                1                     3
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  6                    20
Intimidate            1                     3
Jump                  5                    13
Listen               -1                     2
Move Silently         6                    20
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               5                    20
Repair                0                     0
Search                0                     2
Spot                 -1                     2
Swim                  2                     4
Tumble                3                     4
Use Magic Device      2                    17

Level 1 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage I


Level 2 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I


Level 4 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack I


Level 5 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I


Level 7 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II


Level 8 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II


Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage II


Level 10 (Bard)
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack II


Level 11 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II


Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III


Level 13 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II


Level 14 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III

So I changed a few charisma point in constitution ones to have better hp, and I upped strengh with levels to be more melee oriented. I have hesitations between taking twf or extend at lvl 3. Also, I'm not sure about taking mental toughness, and I'll take it only if I really lack SP to buff myself. Also, I'm going elf for the rapier enhancements and the dexterity one.

Don't hesistate to send feedbacks please

[BoBoDaClown]

Update !

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 14 True Neutral Elf Female
(14 Bard) 
Hit Points: 132
Spell Points: 539 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 6
Reflex: 12
Will: 9

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 14)
Strength             14                    18
Dexterity            15                    16
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma             13                    16

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 14
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 14

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 14)
Balance               5                    13
Bluff                 1                     3
Concentration         6                    19
Diplomacy             1                     3
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                1                     3
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  6                    20
Intimidate            1                     3
Jump                  5                    13
Listen               -1                     2
Move Silently         6                    20
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               5                    20
Repair                0                     0
Search                0                     2
Spot                 -1                     2
Swim                  2                     4
Tumble                3                     4
Use Magic Device      2                    17

Level 1 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage I


Level 2 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I


Level 4 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack I


Level 5 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I


Level 7 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II


Level 8 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II


Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage II


Level 10 (Bard)
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack II


Level 11 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II


Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III


Level 13 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II


Level 14 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III

So I changed a few charisma point in constitution ones to have better hp, and I upped strengh with levels to be more melee oriented. I have hesitations between taking twf or extend at lvl 3. Also, I'm not sure about taking mental toughness, and I'll take it only if I really lack SP to buff myself. Also, I'm going elf for the rapier enhancements and the dexterity one.

Don't hesistate to send feedbacks please

Sorry,

a) I didn't notice before - no toughness? Get it.

b) Is this a caster or melee? Choose. Or you won't succeed at either.

c) You don't need dex, unless you pick up all 3 twf feats - then you need 17, whether naturally or through tomes.

-- tell me what you want - melee or caster - and I'll give you a build.

[Nominoe]

I've chosen melee.
For twf, if I put le first feat I'll put at least itwf, even if Sigtrent seems to say that the first one can be quite efficient alone (and from the quality of his posts, I think I can trust him).
For the casts, I think I'll take extend spend to save for sp while using my buffs, and so doing, holding a little longer without rest.

[BoBoDaClown]

I've chosen melee.
For twf, if I put le first feat I'll put at least itwf, even if Sigtrent seems to say that the first one can be quite efficient alone (and from the quality of his posts, I think I can trust him).
For the casts, I think I'll take extend spend to save for sp while using my buffs, and so doing, holding a little longer without rest.

Melee TWF 28 pt build (easier on the stats to do THF with 28pt build)
Str: 16 - level ups here
Dex: 16 - need a +1 tome (could even start with 17 and drop cha)
Con: 14
Cha: 10 - to cast a level 1 spell you need 11 cha, to cast a level 6 spell you need 16 cha. So you get it to this number using items (readily available), enhancements (automatically available) and tomes (somewhat available).

Feats:
1) Toughness
3) Weapon Focus: Slash ---WC qualifier
6) Power Attack - Grab WC enhancment.
9) Extend
12) TWF
15) ITWF
18) GTWF

Obviously feats are an issue - extend is taken later than I would want. You use Master's Touch and a two handed weapon (your str is fine) until you pick up TWF. You could always switch Toughness until later, but I wouldn't recommend it for a new player.

Due to you limited feat selection, you miss out on Improved Critical, which is a shame, although this can be mimiced somewhat through crafted weapons, if you ever get to that stage.

Hope that helps.

[Nominoe]

Thanks, that helped a lot (espacially the idea of dropping charisma, I hadn't thought of it).
I'm going to roll something similar, thanks again

[Nominoe]

Sorry for the double post, but I think no one would have noticed an edit.

So I followed your advice (at least for the abilities) and tried to make something correct with the feats I wanted.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Elf Female
(4 Barbarian \ 16 Bard) 
Hit Points: 286
Spell Points: 515 
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 12
Reflex: 15
Will: 10

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             15                    20
Dexterity            16                    18
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             10                    14

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 17
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 19
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                    16
Bluff                 0                     2
Concentration         6                    22
Diplomacy             0                     2
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                0                     2
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  6                    22
Intimidate            0                     2
Jump                  5                    19
Listen               -1                     1
Move Silently         6                    22
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               4                    25
Repair                0                     0
Search                0                     2
Spot                 -1                     1
Swim                  2                     5
Tumble                4                     5
Use Magic Device      3                    21

Level 1 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage I


Level 2 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I


Level 4 (Bard)
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I


Level 5 (Bard)


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I


Level 7 (Bard)


Level 8 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II


Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage II


Level 10 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II


Level 11 (Bard)
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack II


Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 13 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II


Level 14 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III


Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II


Level 16 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 17 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost I


Level 18 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III


Level 19 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Resist Poison I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness I


Level 20 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Resist Disease I
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness II

I put some barb lvl for the rage and extra hp. Also, I can take the barb constitution enhancement and two more toughness. I took the damage reduction action boost, but I don't really know if it stacks with the blocking position or with the bard song. Does someone know please ?
I've chosen not to go to 20 bard because it didn't bring more than barb lvl, espacially since I managed to get all the spells I wanted.

Again, if you have some feedbacks :3

[BoBoDaClown]

What you lose for not going 20 is having max songs.

Sorry, I don't know about the DR.

If you want to play Bardbarian, while maintaining level 6 spells, your breakdown is pretty good.

I would be reluctant to take the barbs levels because:
1) No spell casting while raged = no emergeny heals, no rebuffing of short buffs (unless you get your timing right).
2) I don't know about this for sure, but I think your rages would be very short.

You could get a similar toughening up for your build by adding one level of fighter and three of rogue instead, this would net you:

1) One feat = Greater TWF
2) Sneak Attack Damage
3) Evasion - this will toughen you up considerably.
4) Decent rogue skills - plan these out - start with a rogue level, another around 10, and the final at 20.
5) Haste boost = extra dps
6) Few extra hps. (over a 20 bard)

Another combo would be 16/2/2 Bard/Fighter/Rogue.
1) Two feats - Greater TWF and Maximise (gives your healing oomph)
2) Less Sneak damage
3) Evasion
4) Won't be able to keep rogue skills
5) Haste boost
6) Few extra hps (over a 20 bard)

Hope that helps!

[Nominoe]

That helps a lot : I didn't know I wasn't able to cast during rage. But I usually don't use many short buffs, only some which last for at least 2-3 minutes. And I use the short ones only when I really need them, in a tough fight espacially. Also, I don't really like using the rogue skills, and I'm not sure I really need them, even if they are quite useful (in fact, I never really regretted them before). Also, the sneak attack is cool, yes, but won't the backstabbing weapons be enough ? Fighter does not seem like such a good move : I don't see many more things than the extra feat (and maybe item defense). And rage seemed really cool : for a short duration, +4 str, some cons... Just what I need when I'm in a more difficult fight.
But maybe a splash with 3barb/1fighter would give me hp, the feat, item defense, cool rage, and even a damage reduction.

And thanks for the help

[BoBoDaClown]

np