Know the quest

[jcoffey]

Why is it almost every group you see 13+ says "know the quest","speed run" and such.

Do people realize all that does is discourage new players that just hit that level?

It seems that knowing the quest isnt good enough,you are expected to have run it enough times to know it WITHOUT a guide.

Come on peeps stop being so selfish,you were new once too and DDO certainly doesn't need more peeps to quit because of selfish,self-centered people.

[Jay203]

you can start a group for all new players with comments like "guides welcome"
if you can't find a group that you like to join, start one, if you don't like starting groups, tough luck =)

rules are simple, either you make or be made a group

[kamimitsu]

For what it's worth, I've never put 'know the quest' or similar in an LFM.

However, I can't remember the last LFM I put up for anything other than a raid. In raids, I have no problems taking folks who have never done the quest. I'm happy to give commentary as we go through the various stages as well, as I'm expecting a raid to take a set amount of time- spending a few extra minutes to make sure everyone is on the same page is worth the reward. In general, the newish players I've met this way were competent and listened to instruction.

Outside of raids, however, I'll short-man and/or wait for a guildie or friend to come (if a particular class makes the quest that much easier). It's not that I'm against PuGs inherently (as noted above), but I've been bitten by bad groups too many times since F2P came about. Given dungeon scaling, it's faster and easier to get my XP and move on by grouping with players I know.

That said, you can always make your own group and enjoy figuring out the quest for yourself. Though you may not learn as much this way, you will remember what you've learned (something I call 'The Crucible Paradox': having run the quest a bazillion times, yet not knowing how to run it myself, since I'm always following someone else). Also, if you put 'learning the quest' or 'dungeon crawl' in your LFM, you might attract a vet with a kind heart. I can assure you that 'need guide' won't endear you to many, though that's better than nothing.

Another, and perhaps the best, way around the problem is to get into a decent guild. Join and/or put up LFMs during your lowbie time (where you are likely to run into TR'd vets), and if you run with some folks you like and that are helpful find out about their guild's recruiting status. Once you get in a good guild, you can guarantee your guildies will be glad to teach you quests, help gear you out, etc.

[Whippy]

For what it's worth, I've never put 'know the quest' or similar in an LFM.

However, I can't remember the last LFM I put up for anything other than a raid. In raids, I have no problems taking folks who have never done the quest. I'm happy to give commentary as we go through the various stages as well, as I'm expecting a raid to take a set amount of time- spending a few extra minutes to make sure everyone is on the same page is worth the reward. In general, the newish players I've met this way were competent and listened to instruction.

Outside of raids, however, I'll short-man and/or wait for a guildie or friend to come (if a particular class makes the quest that much easier). It's not that I'm against PuGs inherently (as noted above), but I've been bitten by bad groups too many times since F2P came about. Given dungeon scaling, it's faster and easier to get my XP and move on by grouping with players I know.

That said, you can always make your own group and enjoy figuring out the quest for yourself. Though you may not learn as much this way, you will remember what you've learned (something I call 'The Crucible Paradox': having run the quest a bazillion times, yet not knowing how to run it myself, since I'm always following someone else). Also, if you put 'learning the quest' or 'dungeon crawl' in your LFM, you might attract a vet with a kind heart. I can assure you that 'need guide' won't endear you to many, though that's better than nothing.

Another, and perhaps the best, way around the problem is to get into a decent guild. Join and/or put up LFMs during your lowbie time (where you are likely to run into TR'd vets), and if you run with some folks you like and that are helpful find out about their guild's recruiting status. Once you get in a good guild, you can guarantee your guildies will be glad to teach you quests, help gear you out, etc.

Completely agree with Shiz here. I never put such wording in my LFM's as i'm pretty much happy to take new people, if one randomly turns up and I have to spend a couple of extra minutes explaining how things work then no biggie. The only real problems come when you get that odd one that doesn't listen to a word you say anyway. That is more for raids tho.

Being part of a fairly large guild I very rarely put up an lfm for normal quests, much more likely to take what guildies are on and shortman it if need be. That again is nothing really against the pugs, I guess if you just feel you don't need anymore people you don't look for them. This is more at high end though.

When i'm running lowbies I love pugging, the more newbies the better lol, as I pretty much know I can complete the quests myself if it all goes wrong, I love having new people around to make these quests that we've run 100s of times more eventful lol! Also I like to help by answering questions etc, makes me feel useful

Also have to agree about the 'need guide' thing. Its always been a pet hate of mine when I see this; why do you need a guide? Work it out for yourself, its fun! We all had to first time round too, its the only REAL way to learn a dungeon. 'Learning quest' lfm much different, if I have plenty time I'd happily join that and help where I could.

I know it must be hard for new players coming into a game thats 3 years old full of people with 10+ totally geared out and max lvl toons to compete with, perhaps I'll have a rethink and when I've got a couple of slots available for a quest instead of short manning i'll stick that LFM up from time to time.

[Junts]

To be honest, most of those lfms are probably from people who don't know the quests that well. Due to dungeon scaling, most players who you might think of as being snobs are more likely to just never put the lfm up in the first place and run short if they don't want to deal with someone who doesn't know.

With that said, its important to remember that people have schedules and things too; adding 1-2 people who don't know a quest can make it take a lot longer (backtracking), significantly more difficult (pulling excessive mobs, getting stuck while running past fights the party's trying to skip, etc), and otherwise make a 20 minute zerg into a 55 minute grind. If you only have 45 minutes, you can't afford to add players that change the first into the second to your group. While it is a holiday season and people are on vacation, that also means they frequently have family gatherings and events scheduled and are still pretty likely to be trying to squeeze in 25 minutes of fast exp before they go to the in-laws or the like.

[valorik]

high levels I'll pug only if I don't get any guildies and can't solo, for the reasons junts mentioned, with the exception of raids.

Low level I'll only pug if I'm exp farming a ceartain quest and want to reopen it multiple times without restarting the chain, and my lfm will say know the quest, because I'll be going 100 mph and not backtracking to help, or being a tour guide.

[RangerMaya]

I'll admit to have put something similar to that in my lfms before. Main reason would be that I don't have a bunch of time to play some days and just want to get in the quest and get going rather than herd a bunch of cats through a quest. Not that all pugs are like herding cats....but some days are rougher than others! But usually I'm open to new players in my groups.

You have to realize also...some of us have been playing this game since it's release and have done our fair share of teaching and guiding. Some days, I just want to zerg!

[Shamurai]

Hello, I'm Heidiann/ Shamurai I am a PuG'. ~much clapping~

I've been a PuG'er for just around 3 months now ~ less clapping ~

It's pretty much all I know. I PuG high lvl content (last night Shroud run as 11 guildies - Same guild , and me), and Low Lvl Content ~ Faithy PuG'd a lvl 5 qest with 6 people all from different guilds (Faithy is still Guildless).

The VERY first thing I do when I log in in is check the LFM board. If there is nothing that any of my Toons wants to run, then I pick a toon and post my own.

Sometimes running with the Zergers can be fun and potenially help you learn a quest and sometimes running with total newbs can be fun and potenially help you learn a quest. Most of all I like to have a good time and most of the time that's exactly what I get.

Hang in there, good is what you make it!

[Sirea]

Sometimes (when I do put up LFMs, which is pretty rare these days) I'll put things like "know what's up or know how to listen". Doesn't mean I expect you to know the quest. Just means have your head screwed on right, be able to listen to instructions, and be able to keep up if we start zerging. I mostly do this for Titans because if someone doesn't know how to listen the quest becomes much longer and more tedious, and in the case of that one time someone D-Doored out of Bottom Right Center in green puzzle without making sure the power was going down first, can lead to a restart of the whole quest.

Also, sometimes Cerial will put up "Biased Invites". This is mostly a warning to the people who we don't like not to join, we've taken many a newbie under a "Biased Invite" LFM. It's more if you try to join and we recognize your name from some sort of bad experience, then you're not getting in.

However, if I put something like "in progress", you better be able to find where we are in the quest, because I'm going to trust you to not get lost and not get yourself in trouble by going down the wrong hallway or something. An exception to this is if it's a quest where I'm going back near the entrance anyway, then I'll just tell you to sit tight until I get there.

[Anthios888]

The OP is dead on. We're all trying to scramble to defend elitist lfm practices on Ghallanda. We're so afraid of confrontation that we'll discriminate against the 80% in order to avoid that 20% problem PuGgers. The funny thing is, plenty of new players are imitating the "veterans" in order to seem knowledgeable themselves. I avoid most of these on principle as indication that the group leader is probably trying to fake a reputation as uber.

That said, speed run means the group is moving fast. If you can keep up, no reason why you wouldnt be welcome IMO.

[Dragonhyde]

Those type of lfms have been around since after the original beta closed and the game went on sale...I remember seeing the same wording of know the quest etc the first day I logged in...of course back then it seemed people didn't want to group with rangers,bards or warforged either. When I see that type of lfm I typically ignore it and click on the one that doesnt have that but that's just me

[vVAnjilaVv]

I do it sometimes because I want to get a quest done. The problem with a lot of new players is they don't want to learn.

I have no problems taking a new person who doesn't sit there and play twenty questions and actually learns the dungeon, is not afraid to fall behind the group a little to explore and is self sufficient.

But I can't stand players that are like....."how do u do this, what's this for, how do you do that, where do we go next.....why isn't the quest advancing" (when it clearly states in the dungeon status window)........


Ok sorry to be blunt, but those kind of players are just annoying.

I think the greatest lesson I have learned since EU was launched, ........and I am almost a 3 year player, this is a F2P account frum name......was to really just not say anything and let the people who don't know learn. I am all ok giving somone a chance to learn, but if I wanna play with bots, I'll buy hirelings.

I'm sorry but the game teaches you from the beginning, if more new players were more concerned with learning the game instead of keeping up with every sorc, barb and cleric they see walking the Harbor, we wouldn't have this problem and the average quality of player would increase a lot.

So it's not really snobbery of the people who have been around, it's having to deal with the redundancy of people who don't take the time to learn and are just sponges.

[Samadhi]

Why is it almost every group you see 13+ says "know the quest","speed run" and such.

Do people realize all that does is discourage new players that just hit that level?

It seems that knowing the quest isnt good enough,you are expected to have run it enough times to know it WITHOUT a guide.

Come on peeps stop being so selfish,you were new once too and DDO certainly doesn't need more peeps to quit because of selfish,self-centered people.

I didn't realize it was selfish to play the game the way I want to play it. My bad...

On a more serious note, "you were new once too?" Yes, I was, I learned this game almost entirely by stumbling my way through it blindly, with minimal/nohelp other than a RL friend that tossed me about 10kpp before he quit the game. No one but PUGs to group with; and my instruction book by my desk to learn some basic concepts. It wasn't until my third capped character that, maybe, I could claim to have a clue - and it definitely wasn't until the cap went to 12 that I began to understand the concept of powergaming, joined a decent guild, and began knowledgeable build experimentation.
Here's a helpful hint - there are PILES of people right now that are your level and as equally clueless as you - far more than the number that know what they are doing. Group with folks of your skill level and learn the game; and don't pretend it is selfish that I only want to group with others packing 500+ stacks of CSW/Haste pots for my 700th run through through TBF on my 40th alt.

Bah: moral of the story - don't project selfishness onto someone just because you don't have the motivation/initiative to learn the game yourself. There are plenty of folks that also don't know the quest that are perfect for you to learn this game with. Peace.

[aldan]

Why is it almost every group you see 13+ says "know the quest","speed run" and such.

Do people realize all that does is discourage new players that just hit that level?

It seems that knowing the quest isnt good enough,you are expected to have run it enough times to know it WITHOUT a guide.

Come on peeps stop being so selfish,you were new once too and DDO certainly doesn't need more peeps to quit because of selfish,self-centered people.

Seriously? Socialism runs deep in our society. First of all let me say I am not an elitist uber zerger, just an average player that contributes.

Nothing personal but just create your own groups like others have stated and let the zerger/reincarnates run their zergfest.

I prefer to haul through quests I have done a bazallion times. However, if I join a group that says know the quest, I dont join unless I know the quest.

I can totally understand this on harder quests or raids, nothing is worse when you wish to actually complete a raid and you put up "know the quest" and you get people asking "where is the quest", "can you share please".

Some peeps just want to run with those knowledgeable about the quest to get their ingredients, completions, etc.

If you cant find what your looking for, then go create it.

Dont wait, create.

Oh and one last thing, I PUG all the time and love it, sometimes it blows but for the most part, even without the "know the quest" lfms, I have had great experiences.

V/R

[Charlemagne2]

I see the lfm's also and have been to post the speed run shroud every now and then. One way I always found that worked for people who where new to a quest that would gain them admittance is the simple phrase "I can listen and follow directions"

That alone will get you a chance to run with more seasoned groups, now if you can't do that and cause alot of grief I dont know of a faster way to never get a second chance.

As a new player it pays to listen and stay with the group. After completion of the quest send a tell to people that are running the quest on specific points that you seemed to not grasp entirely. Remember as a new player dont try to hard! just stick to the group and do what is asked of you.

The biggest reason older groups put up these types of LFM's is due to those 20% who have no idea what they are doing and run off on there own. Then we get the fallen and I cant get up chatter. A buzz kill to say the least.

[donfilibuster]

The label says it all. "speed run" for when all six party members know the quest well and want to farm it one or more times or do a row of quests.
Having the right labels helps a lot to quickly find a group.

On low level quest this isn't important or noticed and on high level quests players are less of a noob so it doesn't apply as much.
It is by mid-level that new players want to do easy runs to fast level which isn't a big problem as long as the players in the party agree on it.
This is also true of the first raids available, even with a friendly guide the big party may run too fast through Tempest Spine for the new players to get the hang of it on the first few tries.

[Dogchair]

While rock may have hit on the underlying reasons, Sam has come closer to my actions, with rock being closer to my heart......awwwww

Hand 1: Its your 15 buc, play the game you want to, how you want to, think how you like, discriminate how you like, have a good time. You will surround yourself with like minded people in no time. Thats either good or bad. Your call.

hand 2: After you've taken the time to learn the insides and out of quests level 1 - 15 a gazillion times, several different attitudes arise. The teacher, the zerger, the socialite, the obsesser, the perfectionist, the grinder, etc....

you recognize all of those labels, and some of us fall into more than one category.

back to the ops point: I think we know it discourages new players. Unless I am in Teacher mode, I generally don't want a 20 minute quest to take over an hour.

OP: you want to take time out of your day to shake your finger at us, thats cool. the same can be done to you, if you like...the flip side of the coin.

"Why don't you join a speed run, shut the eff up and learn something"
"Why don't you jump in the quest, solo, see how far you can get without a party, and see,learn, experience what its like to learn something on your own."

You come from an era where there are always a **** load of people on, I come from various eras, some where the level of content you are referring to didnt exist. Where the numbers of people in the game didnt appear to match the amount of F2P players now. Where they mergerd my server with 2 others, just to increase the amount of people playing on 1 server. Where you ran stuff solo because the LFM screen was blank and NOOONE was on.

my EULA don't say nothing about hand holding, diaper changin, or spoon feedin.

Another analogy that might work for you. We are grandparents........been there, done that. Some grandparents have great compassion for youth, but still shake their heads when they come running for hand outs. Some granparents don't give a ****, they just want you to let them be, get out of the way sonny. Some granparents take lots of time to explain life, bake you cookies, pick you up when you are down.

in chair fashion, I've just realized I've lost my point, and that im blathering and ranting and don't know why. To top it off I'm sober.......So I don't have an excuse.....er, reason.

after reading this again, ill repeat the best thing I think I said.

my EULA don't say nothing about hand holding, diaper changin, or spoon feedin.

/chair

[Aethene]

.oO DELARA'S ~ NORMAL ~ SPEEDRUNS ~ KNOW IT Oo.


LFM's such as these are put by me. I have TR'd twice and i wanna get the most xp in the least time. If you wanna run something but don't know the quest, do what i did: make your own LFM and learn.

It's not hard, just go to the social panel.

It has nothing to do with selfishness, it's just how i choose to spend my time. I am forcing no one to join and ruin their experience, be they flower-sniffers, or whatever. I just don't want to wait around for 10 minutes to run a 12 minute quest while people are trying to figure stuff out.

What I never understand though, is why people join my groups and ask me what quest....

That's 2 strikes: (1) the quest is clearly listed, and (2) you prolly don't know it.

I'm open to ANYONE that knows the quest, just have to know it. I don't say NO F2P, or VIP ONLY.

But if you don't like how I run groups you can always leave and start your own that you run however you want to.


PEACE, enjoy the game.


.oO MYDAS WUZ HERE Oo.

[knightgf]

Eh, its just people's ignorance. If people are being discriminatory because you don't 'know the quest', then as previously stated, start a new group and put "guides welcome" into it. But thats just DDO:EU for ya. Some people are nuts and three-quarters and make a huge deal over who gets to be in their group. Others either solo, go with guild members only or are just the everyday party mercenary, and use the LFG to look for groups.

[Cripey]