Know the quest

[jcoffey]

Why is it almost every group you see 13+ says "know the quest","speed run" and such.

Do people realize all that does is discourage new players that just hit that level?

It seems that knowing the quest isnt good enough,you are expected to have run it enough times to know it WITHOUT a guide.

Come on peeps stop being so selfish,you were new once too and DDO certainly doesn't need more peeps to quit because of selfish,self-centered people.

[Jay203]

you can start a group for all new players with comments like "guides welcome"
if you can't find a group that you like to join, start one, if you don't like starting groups, tough luck =)

rules are simple, either you make or be made a group

[kamimitsu]

For what it's worth, I've never put 'know the quest' or similar in an LFM.

However, I can't remember the last LFM I put up for anything other than a raid. In raids, I have no problems taking folks who have never done the quest. I'm happy to give commentary as we go through the various stages as well, as I'm expecting a raid to take a set amount of time- spending a few extra minutes to make sure everyone is on the same page is worth the reward. In general, the newish players I've met this way were competent and listened to instruction.

Outside of raids, however, I'll short-man and/or wait for a guildie or friend to come (if a particular class makes the quest that much easier). It's not that I'm against PuGs inherently (as noted above), but I've been bitten by bad groups too many times since F2P came about. Given dungeon scaling, it's faster and easier to get my XP and move on by grouping with players I know.

That said, you can always make your own group and enjoy figuring out the quest for yourself. Though you may not learn as much this way, you will remember what you've learned (something I call 'The Crucible Paradox': having run the quest a bazillion times, yet not knowing how to run it myself, since I'm always following someone else). Also, if you put 'learning the quest' or 'dungeon crawl' in your LFM, you might attract a vet with a kind heart. I can assure you that 'need guide' won't endear you to many, though that's better than nothing.

Another, and perhaps the best, way around the problem is to get into a decent guild. Join and/or put up LFMs during your lowbie time (where you are likely to run into TR'd vets), and if you run with some folks you like and that are helpful find out about their guild's recruiting status. Once you get in a good guild, you can guarantee your guildies will be glad to teach you quests, help gear you out, etc.

[Whippy]

For what it's worth, I've never put 'know the quest' or similar in an LFM.

However, I can't remember the last LFM I put up for anything other than a raid. In raids, I have no problems taking folks who have never done the quest. I'm happy to give commentary as we go through the various stages as well, as I'm expecting a raid to take a set amount of time- spending a few extra minutes to make sure everyone is on the same page is worth the reward. In general, the newish players I've met this way were competent and listened to instruction.

Outside of raids, however, I'll short-man and/or wait for a guildie or friend to come (if a particular class makes the quest that much easier). It's not that I'm against PuGs inherently (as noted above), but I've been bitten by bad groups too many times since F2P came about. Given dungeon scaling, it's faster and easier to get my XP and move on by grouping with players I know.

That said, you can always make your own group and enjoy figuring out the quest for yourself. Though you may not learn as much this way, you will remember what you've learned (something I call 'The Crucible Paradox': having run the quest a bazillion times, yet not knowing how to run it myself, since I'm always following someone else). Also, if you put 'learning the quest' or 'dungeon crawl' in your LFM, you might attract a vet with a kind heart. I can assure you that 'need guide' won't endear you to many, though that's better than nothing.

Another, and perhaps the best, way around the problem is to get into a decent guild. Join and/or put up LFMs during your lowbie time (where you are likely to run into TR'd vets), and if you run with some folks you like and that are helpful find out about their guild's recruiting status. Once you get in a good guild, you can guarantee your guildies will be glad to teach you quests, help gear you out, etc.

Completely agree with Shiz here. I never put such wording in my LFM's as i'm pretty much happy to take new people, if one randomly turns up and I have to spend a couple of extra minutes explaining how things work then no biggie. The only real problems come when you get that odd one that doesn't listen to a word you say anyway. That is more for raids tho.

Being part of a fairly large guild I very rarely put up an lfm for normal quests, much more likely to take what guildies are on and shortman it if need be. That again is nothing really against the pugs, I guess if you just feel you don't need anymore people you don't look for them. This is more at high end though.

When i'm running lowbies I love pugging, the more newbies the better lol, as I pretty much know I can complete the quests myself if it all goes wrong, I love having new people around to make these quests that we've run 100s of times more eventful lol! Also I like to help by answering questions etc, makes me feel useful

Also have to agree about the 'need guide' thing. Its always been a pet hate of mine when I see this; why do you need a guide? Work it out for yourself, its fun! We all had to first time round too, its the only REAL way to learn a dungeon. 'Learning quest' lfm much different, if I have plenty time I'd happily join that and help where I could.

I know it must be hard for new players coming into a game thats 3 years old full of people with 10+ totally geared out and max lvl toons to compete with, perhaps I'll have a rethink and when I've got a couple of slots available for a quest instead of short manning i'll stick that LFM up from time to time.

[Junts]

To be honest, most of those lfms are probably from people who don't know the quests that well. Due to dungeon scaling, most players who you might think of as being snobs are more likely to just never put the lfm up in the first place and run short if they don't want to deal with someone who doesn't know.

With that said, its important to remember that people have schedules and things too; adding 1-2 people who don't know a quest can make it take a lot longer (backtracking), significantly more difficult (pulling excessive mobs, getting stuck while running past fights the party's trying to skip, etc), and otherwise make a 20 minute zerg into a 55 minute grind. If you only have 45 minutes, you can't afford to add players that change the first into the second to your group. While it is a holiday season and people are on vacation, that also means they frequently have family gatherings and events scheduled and are still pretty likely to be trying to squeeze in 25 minutes of fast exp before they go to the in-laws or the like.

[valorik]

high levels I'll pug only if I don't get any guildies and can't solo, for the reasons junts mentioned, with the exception of raids.

Low level I'll only pug if I'm exp farming a ceartain quest and want to reopen it multiple times without restarting the chain, and my lfm will say know the quest, because I'll be going 100 mph and not backtracking to help, or being a tour guide.

[RangerMaya]

I'll admit to have put something similar to that in my lfms before. Main reason would be that I don't have a bunch of time to play some days and just want to get in the quest and get going rather than herd a bunch of cats through a quest. Not that all pugs are like herding cats....but some days are rougher than others! But usually I'm open to new players in my groups.

You have to realize also...some of us have been playing this game since it's release and have done our fair share of teaching and guiding. Some days, I just want to zerg!

[Shamurai]

Hello, I'm Heidiann/ Shamurai I am a PuG'. ~much clapping~

I've been a PuG'er for just around 3 months now ~ less clapping ~

It's pretty much all I know. I PuG high lvl content (last night Shroud run as 11 guildies - Same guild , and me), and Low Lvl Content ~ Faithy PuG'd a lvl 5 qest with 6 people all from different guilds (Faithy is still Guildless).

The VERY first thing I do when I log in in is check the LFM board. If there is nothing that any of my Toons wants to run, then I pick a toon and post my own.

Sometimes running with the Zergers can be fun and potenially help you learn a quest and sometimes running with total newbs can be fun and potenially help you learn a quest. Most of all I like to have a good time and most of the time that's exactly what I get.

Hang in there, good is what you make it!

[Sirea]

Sometimes (when I do put up LFMs, which is pretty rare these days) I'll put things like "know what's up or know how to listen". Doesn't mean I expect you to know the quest. Just means have your head screwed on right, be able to listen to instructions, and be able to keep up if we start zerging. I mostly do this for Titans because if someone doesn't know how to listen the quest becomes much longer and more tedious, and in the case of that one time someone D-Doored out of Bottom Right Center in green puzzle without making sure the power was going down first, can lead to a restart of the whole quest.

Also, sometimes Cerial will put up "Biased Invites". This is mostly a warning to the people who we don't like not to join, we've taken many a newbie under a "Biased Invite" LFM. It's more if you try to join and we recognize your name from some sort of bad experience, then you're not getting in.

However, if I put something like "in progress", you better be able to find where we are in the quest, because I'm going to trust you to not get lost and not get yourself in trouble by going down the wrong hallway or something. An exception to this is if it's a quest where I'm going back near the entrance anyway, then I'll just tell you to sit tight until I get there.

[Anthios888]

The OP is dead on. We're all trying to scramble to defend elitist lfm practices on Ghallanda. We're so afraid of confrontation that we'll discriminate against the 80% in order to avoid that 20% problem PuGgers. The funny thing is, plenty of new players are imitating the "veterans" in order to seem knowledgeable themselves. I avoid most of these on principle as indication that the group leader is probably trying to fake a reputation as uber.

That said, speed run means the group is moving fast. If you can keep up, no reason why you wouldnt be welcome IMO.

[Dragonhyde]

Those type of lfms have been around since after the original beta closed and the game went on sale...I remember seeing the same wording of know the quest etc the first day I logged in...of course back then it seemed people didn't want to group with rangers,bards or warforged either. When I see that type of lfm I typically ignore it and click on the one that doesnt have that but that's just me

[Samadhi]

Why is it almost every group you see 13+ says "know the quest","speed run" and such.

Do people realize all that does is discourage new players that just hit that level?

It seems that knowing the quest isnt good enough,you are expected to have run it enough times to know it WITHOUT a guide.

Come on peeps stop being so selfish,you were new once too and DDO certainly doesn't need more peeps to quit because of selfish,self-centered people.

I didn't realize it was selfish to play the game the way I want to play it. My bad...

On a more serious note, "you were new once too?" Yes, I was, I learned this game almost entirely by stumbling my way through it blindly, with minimal/nohelp other than a RL friend that tossed me about 10kpp before he quit the game. No one but PUGs to group with; and my instruction book by my desk to learn some basic concepts. It wasn't until my third capped character that, maybe, I could claim to have a clue - and it definitely wasn't until the cap went to 12 that I began to understand the concept of powergaming, joined a decent guild, and began knowledgeable build experimentation.
Here's a helpful hint - there are PILES of people right now that are your level and as equally clueless as you - far more than the number that know what they are doing. Group with folks of your skill level and learn the game; and don't pretend it is selfish that I only want to group with others packing 500+ stacks of CSW/Haste pots for my 700th run through through TBF on my 40th alt.

Bah: moral of the story - don't project selfishness onto someone just because you don't have the motivation/initiative to learn the game yourself. There are plenty of folks that also don't know the quest that are perfect for you to learn this game with. Peace.

[aldan]

Why is it almost every group you see 13+ says "know the quest","speed run" and such.

Do people realize all that does is discourage new players that just hit that level?

It seems that knowing the quest isnt good enough,you are expected to have run it enough times to know it WITHOUT a guide.

Come on peeps stop being so selfish,you were new once too and DDO certainly doesn't need more peeps to quit because of selfish,self-centered people.

Seriously? Socialism runs deep in our society. First of all let me say I am not an elitist uber zerger, just an average player that contributes.

Nothing personal but just create your own groups like others have stated and let the zerger/reincarnates run their zergfest.

I prefer to haul through quests I have done a bazallion times. However, if I join a group that says know the quest, I dont join unless I know the quest.

I can totally understand this on harder quests or raids, nothing is worse when you wish to actually complete a raid and you put up "know the quest" and you get people asking "where is the quest", "can you share please".

Some peeps just want to run with those knowledgeable about the quest to get their ingredients, completions, etc.

If you cant find what your looking for, then go create it.

Dont wait, create.

Oh and one last thing, I PUG all the time and love it, sometimes it blows but for the most part, even without the "know the quest" lfms, I have had great experiences.

V/R

[knightgf]

Eh, its just people's ignorance. If people are being discriminatory because you don't 'know the quest', then as previously stated, start a new group and put "guides welcome" into it. But thats just DDO:EU for ya. Some people are nuts and three-quarters and make a huge deal over who gets to be in their group. Others either solo, go with guild members only or are just the everyday party mercenary, and use the LFG to look for groups.

[Cripey]

[ViciousWombat]

Sometimes I post fast runs in the LFM. I do not mind taking newbies. I do not mind explaining the quest in tells if they don't know it and are embarrassed to say so in chat. I simply tell everyone who is new to send me a tell.

I do mind somebody unfamiliar with the quest who says nothing about it. It can really screw things up and there is no reason for it. For whatever reason, this seems to be happening a lot in Shroud runs of late. Lots of newbies and rarely any indication until the cleric runs through the middle and dies, etc.

My point: let your leader know if you are new to a quest. It's just polite and the right thing to do.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I do know the quests.....up to Lvl 16 anyway....very well. And have a passing knowledge of the higher lvl ones as well.

And I will never join a quest like that out of principle.

And it thrills me to no end to see those LFMs stay up for the next hour or so.

[Lostara]

I'm new and I most certainly don't take offense or get discouraged by LFM's that say 'know the quest'. I'm relatively sure most new people wouldn't mind. Since most have played MMO's before.
It's not hard to understand where people come from after having done quest X numerous times.

Also, if someone invites me to a group for a quest and I don't know it I'll say just that. Then again, I also feel that new people should just nod and smile and follow the rest. Do first, ask questions later lol.

So far, imho, Ghallanda has been a very welcoming and helpful crowd. Even when asking silly questions in advice or taking a wrong turn during a quest, no one has been mean or rude to me.

In other words, this newbie feels right at home here. Thanks to all of you