Trap monkey stats

[donny77]

Maybe I just need a regular group. I mostly PUG and it is a pain. Everyone wants to do elite. They will drop group if you suggest Normal *gasp*. But that still doesn't get to the root of the issue IMHO. If a level 10 fighter can run a level 11 quest on elite, shouldn't I be able to as a rogue?

[Calebro]

My last outing was in a new quest though and no one else in the group was pointing out trap locations. I am level 10, Quest was hiding in plain sight, level 11. All rogue stats are maxed. I have 16 Int and nearly all my skills are maxed. I just feel with max stats and level appropriate gear, I shouldn't be failing at all! This isn't subpar gear cranking out less DPS that barely anyone notices. This is top gear available to me and blowing a trap on elite means ending the dungeon crawl and 5 ****ed people *****ing to me about rogues and my skill level.

You = lvl 10
Quest = lvl 11 on NOrmal, 12 on Hard, 13 on Elite

Problem(s):
1) quest is THREE levels higher than you
2) your Wisdom is low and causes problems with spot
3) elite quests seem to scale harder on DCs than other difficulties. It's *more* than what a lvl 13 quest would be on normal (from my experience)

Add these up: STAY OUT of these quests until you can handle them.
Are you going to take your lvl 1 paladin through the Depths chain.... even on normal?
That's what you're doing to your rogue here.
Sorry to be blunt, but that's how it is.

[bekkar]

Yes my search was 25, leveled and spent a few APs and it is now 29.

You keep using Spot and Search interchangably when you are describing your problem, but they are two different skills. One is a wis-based skill that gives you an indicator when something is hidden--a message for traps/control boxes/hidden doors, a shadow for hidden creatures. The other is an int-based skill that must be actively used to locate those traps/control boxes/doors. Because you confuse the two in your posts, I have to wonder if your problem is that you're trying to use the skills interchangably when they aren't interchangable.

[donny77]

You keep using Spot and Search interchangably when you are describing your problem, but they are two different skills. One is a wis-based skill that gives you an indicator when something is hidden--a message for traps/control boxes/hidden doors, a shadow for hidden creatures. The other is an int-based skill that must be actively used to locate those traps/control boxes/doors. Because you confuse the two in your posts, I have to wonder if your problem is that you're trying to use the skills interchangably when they aren't interchangable.

Sorry meant Spot. I know the difference.

[Calebro]

It could get expensive depending on your questing habits, but you could buy some Heroism pots and chug them if/when you see this problem starting.

I ran a multiclass rogue/monk through Tangleroot on elite at level 4 or 5 (I forget which) with the use of Heroism and Skill Boost. Only missed 1 trap, at the end, after completion (going to get a chest), because I had no more skill boosts left.
Did the same on Delera's, in the same fashion, at the same level.

It can be done, but it takes the best possible gear, *and* buffs in conjunction, to do so.

[Strakeln]

Sounds like the OP doesn't want to make a trapmonkey, he just thinks he needs to.

So my advice, OP, is to ignore everyone calling for a 14 int, unless you have a specific reason for it. I suspect those suggesting it here are doing so for the assassin PrE and not for traps.

[Urguwno]

16str, 14con, 14int 14 dex as minimum id say

Spot is probably the least important rogue skill. You can always "find" traps by running ahead with a high reflex save, and you'll eventually remember where every trap in the game is.

The "arcane trapsmith" builds have always been one of my favorites. (2 ROG/ 18 WIZ) These allows you to use DEX as a dump stat and instead rely on Insightful Reflexes (INT) for reflex saves. You can also go WF for self-healing.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

I see this advice all the time but it just doesn't work. I am a level 10 rogue, at level 7 had trouble in Gwains, went and bought +5 Search/Spot/Disable gear and +3 open lock. While leveling to 10 I looted +7 Search/Spot/Disable/Open Lock. Later I looted a +10 Spot item. Since I looted it I consider it level appropriate. I have +3, +4 and +5 tools. I am Drow and have 20 dex and 16 int. Problem is Spot is Wis based which leaves it several ranks behind my other skills after bonuses. I haven't failed a trap or failed to find a box in a while, don't even blow on a 1 but Spot is killing me. I am not spotting the trap. Tools don't boost spot, action boost probably does but you can't keep it active all the time. I have a +2 Wis item, trying to find a +4. Am I doing something wrong?

What difficulty was your Gwylans run? Remember elite Gwylans is a lvl 9 quest not 7

At Rogue 10 you can use +10 spot goggles...I have some...although I have been playing 2 years but still, you see the possibilites.

My suggestions arE:
1. carry Heroism pots
2. Find some +7 spot goggles on the auction house, they are CHEAP
3. Invest 1 rank is Rogue Skill Boost
4. Find a Prayer clickie, or use an item like the Voice of Master for a +1 bonus
5. carry Fox's pots for Search/DD, or use +4 INT item
6. carry Owl's pots for Spot...or carry +4 WIS item


Really in Gwylans once you run it about 10 times, you'll know where the boxes are.

At Rogue 10, your +5 items are getting a bit dated. If all I had were +5's at level 10, I would have serious reservations about running any at-level content on elite. The worst thing in the world is to be caught in there on elite and not be able to find the traps. In my opin best play it safe and run all at-level content on norm until you "gear up" a little more. And you will, just be patient.

[Vormaerin]

Yes my spot was 25, leveled and spent a few APs and it is now 29.


The quest that set me off was a level 11 on Elite with my 25 spot. The problem was, I was dying in the traps to find them.

The comparison with fighters isn't really valid, unfortunately. Certain things.. rogue skills, caster DCs, tend to be pretty hard strictures while melee to hits tend to be a lot softer. Melee (including rogues) can contribute to fights that are over their head if they are decently equipped and built, even if its a struggle. A rogue going for traps either has it or doesn't. There's no "pretty close". That's just the way it is.

If you want to do elite quests that are at or above your level, you must have gear to match your level, which isn't necessarily the easiest thing to do on a first character.

You are right that many folks try to do elite who have no business doing so. Elite difficulty is actually based on the assumption you have some familiarity with the quest already. In theory, one or more members of the group have done the quest once or twice already to even open Elite. So you really aren't supposed to be guessing where the box is and the issue is mainly "do I have the skill target or not?" rather than "Where is the box?"

Elite traps are scaled to challenge top geared characters and players who thrive on player twitch skills. The trap damage is very high because characters are expected to be top notch in terms of stats/gear and also very good at twitch based trap avoidance. If you are good enough, you can avoid 90% or more of the traps in the game just with twitch skill.

If I were you, I'd try to find a way to do these quests on normal or not as the primary rogue so you can familiarize yourself with where the trap boxes are. Considering that some are before the trap, some beyond, and some seemingly 'in' the trap and then some are underwater, over the side, behind a column, etc, it can be quite rough for a first time rogue. Combine that with "bad roll and you die" level trap lethality (ie elite), its easy to get ugly fast.

[Nanith]

If people are ****ing at you for not getting traps - then that is their problem - because a well built rogue generally could care less about traps. Believe me or not - but I ASSURE you that every experienced player isn't going to care much at all whether you can do traps or not.

I'm learning what I can about rogues to decide whether or not to roll one. This statement confuses me though and so far no one has disagreed with it. I get the disdain for only being a trapmonkey, but don't rogues want to be proficient at disabling traps? As a cleric, I know I hate dealing with the mana-drain that traps can be and even worse, inst-kill elite traps. I love trap disablers and can't imagine that ever changing with my cleric in level appropriate quests.

[Cedwin]

The quest that set me off was a level 11 on Elite with my 25 spot. The problem was, I was dying in the traps to find them.

That's your problem. Running quests on elite do not scale the spot/disable DCs by 1 or 2, it's usually more like 10 or 20.

A level 11 quest on elite, is considered to be a level 13 quest with scaling, but even then, a level 13 rogue may have problems if they don't have the proper gear.

[Calebro]

That's your problem. Running quests on elite do not scale the spot/disable DCs by 1 or 2, it's usually more like 10 or 20.

A level 11 quest on elite, is considered to be a level 13 quest with scaling, but even then, a level 13 rogue may have problems if they don't have the proper gear.

qft, and this is the part that people don't understand.

I'm learning what I can about rogues to decide whether or not to roll one. This statement confuses me though and so far no one has disagreed with it. I get the disdain for only being a trapmonkey, but don't rogues want to be proficient at disabling traps? As a cleric, I know I hate dealing with the mana-drain that traps can be and even worse, inst-kill elite traps. I love trap disablers and can't imagine that ever changing with my cleric in level appropriate quests.

The previous post by Cedwin is part of the reasoning for this. New players will cry when you blow a trap box. Long time players have probably played a rogue (or 6) and understand this.
It's OK to blow a few boxes. Heck, it's even expected. ESPECIALLY if you're under level. Or even AT level on elite (or hard for that matter - in lower level quests).

What bothers me is the people that don't even try.
I was in WW with a lowbie the other day. We had a 2/2 fighter/rogue with us. When we got to the first gate, we all stood around waiting for him to disable the trap. He3 asked us what we were waiting for. Ummm.... YOU! Then he tells us that he's not a TRUE rogue and he can't do traps.
OK, no prob. He must have dumped Int and just taken it for 1d6 SA and evasion. No sweat.... I guess. Even though you had a TON of skill points and there's no reason not to max them out at first level (at least), it's not a problem. It's not like the traps in there can't be avoided.
But then we get to the rune with the prisoners. The pally and I turn around and leave. No one has the Int to get the rune. No big deal.
Then I get an optional xp pop-up.
Huh?!?
I turn around to see the fighter/rogue at the door, which is open, talking to the prisoners.

Now I'm confused. You have the Int to get the rune, but you can't do traps? You got a MINIMUM of 44 or 48 skill points at level 1, but you don't have any trap skills?
The melee focused FvS I was running isn't a healer, but he has CLW.
That original 5 points would have been enough to give the traps in there a *shot*, but he didn't even have that.
I was embarassed for him.

At low levels, anyone with even a single level of rogue should be able to handle traps.
At mid levels (or high levels), a single level of rogue mixed with a class that gets a bunch of skill points should *probably* be able to handle traps.

There are certain traps that simply won't be disabled. If you can get them, I'll either be impressed, or in certain circumstances, I'll think you've gone so far out of your way to build your trap skills that my belief will be that you've gimped yourself for combat to do so.
This last one is rare, but it happens.

*edit
A lot of vets want to zerg the low levels for xp/minute reasons.
Disabling traps slows this down. Unless the trap is going to kill you (which is unlikely in a lot of cases) disabling them slows down the xp/minute formula and they just zerg them.
Others will want the traps disabled for the 15% bonus, but they'll probably want it done fast.

I believe you should play the game how you find it the most fun and play with people that feel the same way.
Depending on which toon I'm on I sometimes want to zerg, and sometimes want to take it slow and enjoy the dungeons.

[Nanith]

New players will cry when you blow a trap box. Long time players have probably played a rogue (or 6) and understand this. It's OK to blow a few boxes. Heck, it's even expected. ESPECIALLY if you're under level. Or even AT level on elite (or hard for that matter - in lower level quests).

What bothers me is the people that don't even try.

To clarify, I understand there are occasional failures. What confused me was that I thought he was saying that experienced players don't even bother trying to disarm traps.

[Calebro]

To clarify, I understand there are occasional failures. What confused me was that I thought he was saying that experienced players don't even bother trying to disarm traps.

Which is the edit I added at the bottom.

*edit
A lot of vets want to zerg the low levels for xp/minute reasons.
Disabling traps slows this down. Unless the trap is going to kill you (which is unlikely in a lot of cases) disabling them slows down the xp/minute formula and they just zerg them.

[kamimitsu]

One piece of advice I give newer rogues: go mechanic PrE until level 12. Acrobat and Assassin don't offer much until then anyway, and being a Mechanic will ensure that even if you are not "optimally geared", you will still be able to hit manage quests somewhat over your level (or Elite quests at level).