Was I too harsh?

[Vhlad]

But the really, really great thing about this thread: seeing who agrees with him. That's where the good stuff is.

First, let it be known that I only clicked on this thread because it was among the top most recently replied to threads on the main page, and because I saw the last response was from gunga.

Second, with regard to the OP: If you don't want to be civil, patient, and helpful to potentially new players, please do not pug low level content. Many new people are trying the game and a first party or near first party experience with someone acting the way you did may ruin it for them. Heck, I know I would definitely ruin the new player experience if they were to join my groups (I'd complete the quest before they had a chance to really play, explore, or learn anything). I shouldn't have to spell out the rest but discouraging new players is bad.

Third, the OP did make a point that I agree with: If there are requirements stated in a LFM, people should not click join if they do not meet them. However, to expect everyone to actually read (and listen to) your LFM requiements at such low levels is asking too much. You should expect extreme noobsauce if you try to pug at that level (and why would you? Do elite later. With dungeon scaling it is far far more efficient to zerg solo on N/H).

But with regard to end-game content: It's a real peeve of mine when for example I have a LFM up for shroud or TOD and we have 11 people displayed in LFM, with no cleric or FvS, where the LFM has only cleric/FvS icons selected and the LFM text states 1 spot for a healer, and someone hits join on their barb, fighter, rogue, etc.

Sometimes I'm tempted to just accept everyone and drop the group on them after. i.e. you saw I had 4 casters already and you clicked to join on your sorc, and your guildy clicked to join on his wiz? Well, alright, here's your shroud: 6 arcanes. Have fun! *pass star* *drop*

Of course, I wouldn't actually do that. The good people who were already in the group don't deserve to be punished. It's up to the group leader to screen and verify that the players they accept actually meet the specified requirements if they feel strongly about them.

Nonetheless it can be annoying and frustrating when people seemingly blindly click LFMs and subsequently ask questions like:
(i) What quest are we doing? (when the quest was stated in the LFM)
(ii) Is this for flagging or for the raid? (when there's 7+ people displayed in the party, and the precise name of the raid is selected in the LFM quest box)
(iii) Where is the quest? (when the LFM says in progress, zerging, know your way)
(iv) Do you need to flag for this? (when the LFM says abbot - selective, or "must be flagged")
(v) Can I get a teleport? (when the LFM says in progress, we're all inside, get your own ride)

Back in the day you didn't even have to specify these things in the LFM. In most cases it's completely obvious to vets simply by hovering over the LFM and seeing what the group makeup is and where everyone is located.

We joke about stuff like this and say it in our geek/noob voices when we join groups (i.e. pinch your nose and say in voice "do I need to flaaaaag for this?" or "who's on the lazer in part 7?" when zoning into a TOD). But dammit, sometimes it's no joke.

[Vanshilar]

Okay so as a level 5 paladin, I put up a LFM for "Elite waterworks, need opener, know quest, fast run"

Depending on how people interpret that LFM, they might have thought that you meant you know the quest and that you can help them do a fast run.

Sometimes specifying the subject in a phrase helps

[Linenoise2]

I think some people missed this part of the Op's post. >> "Elite waterworks, need opener, know quest, fast run"

While I agree that he may have over reacted somewhat. I have been in many group/guild runs that live by this motto.

If this was an Elite Vod run would the comments be the same?

That does not erase the fact that it was still a PUG and ANYTIME you PUG you, as a leader, should anticipate this. Did the OP really expect to get 5 solid players in a PUG? Sure it is nice when it happens but try to maintain realistic expectations. If you, as the leader, do not like how someone in your group is behaving then it is your perrogative to boot them. But that does not mean that the leader has to insult the player. Maintain a little class and civility and explain to them that they are not meeting your expectations and you do not have the time (or inclination) to bring them along. Of course it is just easier to call someone names and boot them, but any respectable person would have acknowledged the responsibilities of a GOOD leader and fulfilled those responsibilities.

Are you required to be a nice person? No. You play however you wish to play, that is your entitlement and I won
t stomp on anyone for that. But if you decide that your right to play how you want includes berating and insulting other players; Well your wrong and your also a jerk.

Bottomline for me is this. If you do not wish to deal with the general populace and what that has to offer (good and ill) then do not offer them the chance to interact with you.

[stainer]

I have been playing for a couple of months now and I am new, but not n00b anymore. I was f2p, but have been having so much fun I went p2p. I make a ton of mistakes as I am learning, but I always tell the group "new, learning this quest" when I join. I am almost lvl 17 on my main now, and have a few lower alts.

Something similar happened to me the other day in WW. I was leading, and we had a Pal who was running off and getting killed, causing us to backtrack for shrines. The final straw for me was when he exited the last part, returned and cost a xp penalty. When he died again we just carried his stone. He whined so much about it, someone just dropped his stone and left him. Do I feel bad, not really. He was told several times by everyone to quit running off and that the cleric can't help through walls, doors, or across the map. We were running the quest on norm, for goodness sake!

They need to let a party leader kick disruptive players once the quest has started.

[Perspicacity]

In a calm sea, anyone can be a Captain.

The real "filter" for a leader is when things go wrong.

So was the captain of the titanic a bad captain? Or was it just a sh!tty boat? I understand what your getting at but I am sorry to say it's not as black and white as you want to put it, yes sometimes it's bad leadership but sometimes you just get a bad PUG. There are three positions to consider here, the leader is frustrated because he specifically asked for experienced players and got idiots instead.

I know how frustrating it can be when some one joins your group with out regard for the LFM. I had a guy once join my group who couldn't even speak English. You speak Portuguese good for you I'm not saying they can't play it's a free game and any one who wants to play should be able to but allot of quests require strategy team work and most importantly COMMUNICATION, how can we communicate when you cant even understand me. Some of you may ask how is this disregarding of your LFM? Well this takes me back to another group where I had a guy who's icon said he had voice chat but I tried talking to him for five minutes and after not getting a responce I typed "you got audio?" to which he responded no. This is not a question that any one should ever have to ask it should be information you should volunteer reflexively as soon as you join the group. So now I put in my LFMs "must have voice chat" now if you don't speak my language you may as well not even have voice chat cause how are we going to talk?

But I have also been on the other side. I have had party leaders that assume that because I made one mistake or asked a question that I must be a noob. Noob to quest does not mean noob to game. Some one who has been playing F2P for a year but has just never done Tangle root gorge or Shan-to-kor is not a noob but they dont know those quests so if one day they decide to buy them you may have a v ery experienced cleric who doesn't know the quest.

I have also been on the outside looking in as another member of my party did something I could not understand and the leader called him out on it. I herd one guy ask where the quest giver was for Cerulean hills slayers... really? It's not that there inexperienced its that there inatentive. I have never asked for the slayers quest giver because i knew it was automatic since level 2 of my very first toon. By the time you get to storm reach you have at least done slayers once (on korthos) anyone who doesn't know that it's automatic was simply not paying attention and someone that inattentive is someone I don't want in my group because that's the type of person who doesn't pay attention when you say "look out, trap".

Do I think you where harsh? A little. The guy saw the jet was on and stood in it. Noob move yes, deserving of ridicule no, but do I understand why you did it? O god yes. However, if the group was really that bad you could have just bailed and started a new group not like you would have lost much seeing as how you had just started. The question is not was it deserved the questions is was it necessary and the answer to that will always be no, it doesn't help in anyway and usually destroys parties as you clearly proved.

[Perspicacity]

That does not erase the fact that it was still a PUG and ANYTIME you PUG you, as a leader, should anticipate this. Did the OP really expect to get 5 solid players in a PUG? Sure it is nice when it happens but try to maintain realistic expectations. If you, as the leader, do not like how someone in your group is behaving then it is your perrogative to boot them. But that does not mean that the leader has to insult the player. Maintain a little class and civility and explain to them that they are not meeting your expectations and you do not have the time (or inclination) to bring them along. Of course it is just easier to call someone names and boot them, but any respectable person would have acknowledged the responsibilities of a GOOD leader and fulfilled those responsibilities.

Are you required to be a nice person? No. You play however you wish to play, that is your entitlement and I won
t stomp on anyone for that. But if you decide that your right to play how you want includes berating and insulting other players; Well your wrong and your also a jerk.

Bottomline for me is this. If you do not wish to deal with the general populace and what that has to offer (good and ill) then do not offer them the chance to interact with you.

You make a valid point but where in our society is good leadership taught anymore? How can we expect people to be good leaders if no ones ever shown them how to do it or more importantly why it's important. It's not that people don't know how to have good leadership skills it's that few people value the quality enough to even try to exhibit it. people just want to grind and level and power game and min max and munchkin and WIN; leadership be damned. I think it's your expectations that are to high which is sad because your expectations are not unreasonable it's just the bar in DDO (and in life) is to low.

[Mithran]

You make a valid point but where in our society is good leadership taught anymore? How can we expect people to be good leaders if no ones ever shown them how to do it or more importantly why it's important. It's not that people don't know how to have good leadership skills it's that few people value the quality enough to even try to exhibit it. people just want to grind and level and power game and min max and munchkin and WIN; leadership be damned. I think it's your expectations that are to high which is sad because your expectations are not unreasonable it's just the bar in DDO (and in life) is to low.

I think good leadership is a natural result of intelligence and emotional maturity. There were two failures, here:

1. A Rogue character who was clearly new to the game.
2. A lack of maturity in dealing with #1.

[Kalari]

*Sniffs the air... The smell of early drama...*

Hmm OP what can I say I think it comes down to tact, would you want someone calling you out? I know before you answer that youd probably say "sure if I was doing something dumb." But I can almost guarentee that anyone who condones calling out people or insulting them over mic would not feel the same if the shoe was on the other foot.

If you dont believe me we have a few nice hot heads (okay maybe a former one in the mix) Who were known to lose it over mic when someone did something out of place or what they flat out think is wrong in a group.

One of my first bad experiences was in a DQ raid where I had the displeasure of hearing someone get completely chewed out. Did they make a bad move? Yes did they deserve the abuse they got? No, because were humans we make mistakes. And the last thing a person needs in a game where they are trying to relax and escape is to have someone treat them like poo cause they are not up to snuff.

Things ya got to realize as some others put, not every newb is twinked, they may have had elite runs where they were carried or such a blur that things didnt sink in.

Bad runs happen its a part of the game, if every run ran smoothly things would get boring quicker then not.

And insulting someone even if they do something horribly dumb just reflects badly on you. I cant say if the person deserved your ire I was not there just hearing your side of the story. But I think of better ways to let someone know "hey this was supposed to be a smooth run, you seem to have trouble do you understand that on elite traps will one shot you?" Just remember next time your posting in the forums that even if you feel your in the right about something the moment it comes down to "yeah well I insulted him" thats when many of us stop and form our opinions of ya.

[ddaedelus]

Depending on how people interpret that LFM, they might have thought that you meant you know the quest and that you can help them do a fast run.

Sometimes specifying the subject in a phrase helps

Good. I'm not the only one who thought this.

Re the topic in general: One more reason to solo.

[whysper]

I think some people missed this part of the Op's post. >> "Elite waterworks, need opener, know quest, fast run"

Yeah, though looks like you highlighted the wrong part. People should know better than join any LFM that says "need opener."

[die]

Sometimes even vets don't want to hear mouth from somebody who thinks they're Mr. Big in WW. You could've just finished the quest without calling someone an idiot. If you were that uBerZ you would've been soloing WW like the rest of us.

We can't all be the best.

dig that i have not ran a group in the harbor let alone the market in 2 yrs or so ~ newb

[Gunga]

But dammit, sometimes it's no joke.

Sure.

But.

This thread has very little to do with reading an lfm. For the surfacy folks, it may be all about that, but I promise you it only starts there; it's insignificant.

I see some comments about a n00b rogue, and this thread ain't that either. The reroll that was that rogue could've had 5 capped toons. If this was his first rogue, he probably doesn't know where 80% of the trap boxes are. Who cares...recall, regroup, start over.

This thread is not of the latest fad of forum threads which whine about the influx of F2P and lowb newbs. As for those threads, which this is not, a good leader leadin hairy pugs becomes a game in itself (see quote)...try it, it's actually fun. I've witnessed Vhlad accomplish this over and over, with flying colors. Where's the marketplace?

This thread is about a n00b leader learning how to become a better one. That's why he is here; he wants to know if his actions were the actions of the elite.

The clear answer is NO. He acted inappropiately, unfitting of a raid leader, epic fail of a ww leader. His leadership capability was obvious within minutes of his party crash, and he's here for a second opinion.

Tell him the truth, tell him he should insult the pug only after he gets what he needed.

Make him a better leader so we don't have to endure another ***** leading failed reavers.

[rh75]

On elite it's everyones responsibility to be informed about a quest before taking on responsibility for a role as a party member.

It's never suitable for your first try.

If you insist on doing it on elite your first run through - you should **** well be listening for tips and input (aka "TRAP").

There is no reason to suffer through a multi-part elite mission with someone who can't do the basics. For the simple fact that it's zero fun which is the point of this game.

[Cyr]

The OP was a bit harsh with his response, but sometimes it's better as a leader to get rid of dead weight then keep it. WW is hardly tough, but that shows even more clearly that said rogue did not read the LFM. Only the most noobish of vets would not know of the trap there and then proceed to stand in the trap after blowing the trap so they could close the gate someone else opened and then die. It's exactly the same thing in my book as that EPIC DQ. If you put up in the lfm what you want and people ignore it then they need to be called on it so they learn early.. Otherwise, they will be the ones clicking on the EPIC DQ where it says "bow user slots left only" when they are playing a barbarian who does not even own a ranged weapon...and then sending you tells "why don't you invite me?"

[Kalari]

On elite it's everyones responsibility to be informed about a quest before taking on responsibility for a role as a party member.

It's never suitable for your first try.

If you insist on doing it on elite your first run through - you should **** well be listening for tips and input (aka "TRAP").

There is no reason to suffer through a multi-part elite mission with someone who can't do the basics. For the simple fact that it's zero fun which is the point of this game.

True which is why most of us run elite runs solo now (due to dungeon scaling its pretty much a joke if you know the quest) Or with friends and guilds.

But when you pug when you put that lfm up and your taking the random chance at running with strangers, you dont know what your going to get and you need to prepare. Pugs are not a guarentee at bad but its a higher percent chance that something may go south. You picking up people you dont know you dont know if your going to work well together if they truly know what they are doing or if they are just having an off day. So as a leader you have to be prepared for such things. And losing it over the mic when things go south..yeah sorry still wont say the OP was in the right for that.

Pugging is always a hit or miss, you take the risk when you put the lfm up, and if someone does something to get themselves killed even in a lfm that says experience know your way, you can still use tact for how you treat them. Even if you think less of their abilities.

So once again from what I read of the op sure the rogue made a bonehead move I dont think many of us are above doing something randomly foolish in game it happens to the best at times. What set this thread out to be targeted was your lack of decorum in handling the situation. Maybe you were having a bad day I hope this was the case, but if you were looking for a thumbs up for telling some new player off or even a noob off wont get it from this end. Hard ww can be done in a blink then you could have opened elite yourself and ran it again if you were not time constrained.

[Stormslinger]

I factor in the roadhouse technique. "Be polite"

Sometimes people need there noses rubbed in their s*** to get that they shouldn't do that on the carpet, but there is no reason to be rude about it.

If they are offended for being told the errors of their ways thats their issue if you are rude about it thats your issue.

How do we learn but be corrected

[vVAnjilaVv]

I'd really like to say, if u have never done a particular quest before....u really have no business doing it on elite. Sorry, no I don't feel sorry for people trying to skip thru content on at least normal to try and rack up the elite favor so they can get more of the game for free.

About leadership.....anyone who needs a leader will never be an adequate follower anyways.

[ProdigalGuru]

He turned around and walked back into the acid until he died?
He WAS an idiot. And if you did not tell him, he may never have known.
At least now he knows.

[ddoplayer064]

Yeah, though looks like you highlighted the wrong part. People should know better than join any LFM that says "need opener."

Just to chime in...I avoid LFM's that say this, because it screams to me that someone is looking to coattail.

[akillith]

Anyones opinion on that?

I think this is an example of going overboard. Sorry if its a bit small.