solo vs group rant

[Quikster]

This only happens to me when im really tired and mindlessly chasing mobs the cleric is kiting. Otherwise I usually move on and start killing something else. If I cant move on, I go afk till the cleric is done, then collect my loot :P

[Xyfiel]

Well my point was if the tactic was effective regardless of group quantity, and in the case of my cleric, I believe it is, why not do it? If we are referring to say my Ranger sneaking thru a quest, then no I don't do that in a group unless we need it. Please note I never disagreed with the theory, only the specifics relating to bb.

And General, AI can never be perfect. I will gladly stop using aoe spells like I do if casters can run out of spells, can be interrupted, and a cr 20 monster doesnt have immunities and 3k hps. Can you give a good rp reason why a monster wouldn't come after a PC even thru a harmful spell? We are in their home, trying to kill them. I still go thru traps and spells if I need to engage a threat on the other side.

[RATRACE931]

I just wanted to add my cleric also has 60 intimidate. I don't want to heal melee whether mediocre or not. It is a waste of sps. I can kite them or intimidate them, and I have 70+ self buffed ac, all saves 35+, evasion, and quickened self healing. I want them to hit me, I can heal the minor damage taken, and sometimes get the sps back anyway. More sps for nuking and insta death. Either using bb or turtling the damage taken is minimal. Wouldn't you want the cleric to be adding dps and speeding the quest? Why would anyone want to sit there and babysit 4 dps melee when you can do so much more? Note I am not referring to epic either.

An even funnier story is sometimes when melee are taking too long, I cast a bb then run over and intimidate them off the melee to kite them.

Funny, someone didn't like my first post. If some of you want to stay in disbelief over the dps a Cleric can do, have fun. If you can think of a good quest to have a challenge, I am game to prove you wrong. How about madstone elite? Me soloing vs 4 dps specced melee and you can only use dps. It is a dps challenge after all.

If the situation were as black&white as that i'd agree with you... heck i play a healbot and i have max/emp/quiken BB just for idiot pugs so fare to say i DO agree with you to some extent. BUT
If your blade barriers are out DPS 4 melee's, you have no melee's.

IF 4 melee are getting the butt STOMPED in high end non epic quests... you have no melee's.

And in those cases you are in the 100% right to kite and continue "Soloing" the quest. But in such a case that Gaarth is referring to knowing him and his groups any1 of the could solo or duo most the end game content as is and will do much much much much MUCH more dps than your blade barrier and take hardly a whopping.

[Battleworm]

90% of the time it's easier faster and more mana efficient to drop A bb.Green blade helps quite a bit,550+ per tick.I don't know of a single melee in game that swings for 550 points a tick and requires 0 healing.And when i get hit,sometimes i even get juice back...I understand your frustration but for anyone with a caster or Fvs,it's clear a lot of times it's cheaper to just shred things down.sometimes it's just to speed things up (even in a group) and some quests,the more the better (Mindsunder for instance).If i have great melee dps,once my blade aggroes,I just shield block and heal myself with the free healing capstone while melees annihilate targets.Many ways to skin a cat.I usually go for a combination of

1- fun
2- cheap
3- easy

[RATRACE931]

.I don't know of a single melee in game that swings for 550 points a tick and requires 0 healing.

Well the point i'd like to make is the OP compared a BB to 4 melees not just one. Also aswell melees cant do 550 a "tick" because we dont have ticks we have weapons and Im willing to bet that either of my barbs could at the very least EQUAL a crit blade barrier for DPS for the meer fact that i can hit some 4 times as often as you could with a BB (Under most circumstances.)

Now Im not saying DONT do it because by all means we all love Blade Barriers especially in Sins, I'm just saying be aware of your group. 4 competant melees should annihalate anything in this game in a matter of moments, even epic.

[Battleworm]

Well the point i'd like to make is the OP compared a BB to 4 melees not just one. Also aswell melees cant do 550 a "tick" because we dont have ticks we have weapons and Im willing to bet that either of my barbs could at the very least EQUAL a crit blade barrier for DPS for the meer fact that i can hit some 4 times as often as you could with a BB (Under most circumstances.)

Now Im not saying DONT do it because by all means we all love Blade Barriers especially in Sins, I'm just saying be aware of your group. 4 competant melees should annihalate anything in this game in a matter of moments, even epic.

You are right,If i look at it from your side.But at the same time,that barb swinging for 550 a tick will also get licked for a lot meaning he'll need some love,my blades only need tough love :>

[Quikster]

You are right,If i look at it from your side.But at the same time,that barb swinging for 550 a tick will also get licked for a lot meaning he'll need some love,my blades only need tough love :>

But cant you work together? One goes and engages some mobs with a BB, the other runs and takes out the casters/rangers who cant be kited, you hit two buttons and heal the barb to full, rinse repeat.

[Battleworm]

But cant you work together? One goes and engages some mobs with a BB, the other runs and takes out the casters/rangers who cant be kited, you hit two buttons and heal the barb to full, rinse repeat.

Absolutely,With a high hp fvs or cleric,drop the first bb,get initial solid aggro and let everyone else mow them down.It's just sometimes it's fun to do something else than babysit but that's for another thread,another day

[Sandpredator]

Well I happened to be in that group and Garth did forget to mention that the cleric died while kiting the mobs and I had to raise him.

[spyderwolf]

Well I happened to be in that group and Garth did forget to mention that the cleric died while kiting the mobs and I had to raise him.

then the rant shouldnt have been against this tactic but against crappy cleric/fvs's who think they can blade barrier everything. players should know their limitations. if you understand exactly how blade barrier placement should be done, you can get 3-5 ticks per sec, without taking any hits to your self 90% of the time.

when im on my melee's i love when clerics utilize blade barriers, mean i can zerg ahead and fight other stuff making the quests shorter.

and conversely, i use blade barriers on my cleric so i have agro and only have to heal one person the majority of the time, get aggro kite ina tight circle so themelees have no problem hitting anything . easy.

the main thing random people need to realize, if you dont have the hp to take more than a hit or two or you are jsut kind slow on the moving around kinda thing, dont blade barrier stuff.

[Siskel]

If the bunny hopping if annoying, consider using some grease clickies

[Battleworm]

Well I happened to be in that group and Garth did forget to mention that the cleric died while kiting the mobs and I had to raise him.

I had bad days or miscalculations where I died...Without being the best of the best,i can hold my own...But sometimes still do some silly things.But if i were to die by my stupidity (happened many times to learn / discover stuff) deathpact would have my back


In the end Garth,I think the problem isn't how things were done,just that you had a cleric that sucked or was on a off day



Edited for this :he wanted to impress the group by soloing in front of them but proved he couldn't by dying.hahaha!

[Creeper]

meer fact that i can hit some 4 times as often as you could with a BB (Under most circumstances.)

I am sure you already know that BB is AOE, is it a stretch to assume that the cleric could also pull more than four (or fourty) mobs at a time through it, or cast more than one? If we assume this, it proves Xyfiel's point—he does do more damage even if you "out-crit" his BB, and he is able to keep running toward the end of the dungeon without having to stop moving and swing sharp objects, so he completes the quest faster as well.

[Kalari]

I get what your saying Garth but you have to realize this is the new DDO. Many people have the Solo mentality because thats what theyve had to do.

whether its self imposed due to not being able to put up with pugs. Self inflicted from being perma noobs (not new players just noobs who refuse to learn) Many playing ddo just have this "all about me mentality."

I think playing a cleric has many parts, healing is obvious but we do have other spells for a reason. It takes smarts or being wise (eh? hehe) to know when to utilize your spells for best effects.

Im sorry you went threw one of those "my blade barriers are better then you melee types." sadly I dont see this problem going away anytime soon. Too much of the team mentality has left this game outside of coordinated guild/friend runs and trying to get others to learn it will take a lot of work.

[moops]

But really, if Im grouping with people, I'm not going to play the same way I do when I solo, whats the point? And I think that is what Gaarth is getting at.

We all might be talking about different content here as well. In end game its not so easy to split your groups up, and despite being specc'd for damage as well as having Evocation Focus and Max Spell pen for BB I am not seeing 550 pts a tick in AMrath or Epic--maybe I just have bad luck.

I agree with the Cleric fight one group melee fighter another method, I used to do this all the time, but with DA its not as easy as all that anymore, esp in quests like Bastion and Sins--Red Alert is quite harsh but certainly a whole new fun challenge on a different level and I enjoy getting red alert on elite settings with my guildies, but not pugs.

I do pug alot, and I do see other clerics use ton of BB in Amrath (heck even inspiration quarter) and die all the time, and have maybe 2 kills for the whole quest, meanwhile out of mana and having to run back and find shrines-- if were even on Normal-- which slows quest down if you have to take them there or they can't live through respawns/wrong turns and have to go get them--my idea of grouping is that it goes a bit faster than if I solo or that I can sit back and chill and not have to do everything--just my small part, and maybe meet some new people.

While the people in this thread might be excellent at using BB and staying alive and taking down trash in a quick fashion without running out of SP, I think that it is misleading to newer players or newer clerics/fvs to make it sound so easy since many of you have been playing for almost 4 years and perhaps have kiting and SP management down to perfection. The amount Cleric/Fvs Deaths combined with running out of SP I see in pugs in AMrath are proof that not just anyone can use BB effectively.

[Lifespawn]

But really, if Im grouping with people, I'm not going to play the same way I do when I solo, whats the point? And I think that is what Gaarth is getting at.

We all might be talking about different content here as well. In end game its not so easy to split your groups up, and despite being specc'd for damage as well as having Evocation Focus and Max Spell pen for BB I am not seeing 550 pts a tick in AMrath or Epic--maybe I just have bad luck.

I agree with the Cleric fight one group melee fighter another method, I used to do this all the time, but with DA its not as easy as all that anymore, esp in quests like Bastion and Sins--Red Alert is quite harsh but certainly a whole new fun challenge on a different level and I enjoy getting red alert on elite settings with my guildies, but not pugs.

I do pug alot, and I do see other clerics use ton of BB in Amrath (heck even inspiration quarter) and die all the time, and have maybe 2 kills for the whole quest, meanwhile out of mana and having to run back and find shrines-- if were even on Normal-- which slows quest down if you have to take them there or they can't live through respawns/wrong turns and have to go get them--my idea of grouping is that it goes a bit faster than if I solo or that I can sit back and chill and not have to do everything--just my small part, and maybe meet some new people.

While the people in this thread might be excellent at using BB and staying alive and taking down trash in a quick fashion without running out of SP, I think that it is misleading to newer players or newer clerics/fvs to make it sound so easy since many of you have been playing for almost 4 years and perhaps have kiting and SP management down to perfection. The amount Cleric/Fvs Deaths combined with running out of SP I see in pugs in AMrath are proof that not just anyone can use BB effectively.

I think you have an entirely different argument than the op yours is if you can't do it well when it matters then don't .

Garth says when your in a group don't do it but i have to say sometimes it's the best way to get things done i love my 500+ crit bb's in amarath and even epic it's all about knowing when to use what tactics.

Why chase the things the cleric is kiting? just move on or make a better build and intim them off if you think you can do it better.

So the rant should have been Don't bb and kite if you are a newbsauce.

[Ponza69]

Need to mix it up and bit and more importantly communicate. I had the pleasure to be included on a couple of runs into GH quests by 2 very experienced players in my opinion. (I am a noob and I know nothing). Anyways, communication was always there and sometimes he would ask me to enthrall a group of mobs to get aggro so that the rest of the party could cut them down. Other times it was melee driven. Other times it was Fire wall and Blade barrier combos mixed with a little kiting or blocking.

I guess the things I liked about it best are 1) he knew the quest inside and out 2) He knew when and how to use all the resources in his group 3) everyone felt good about being included and not pinned to a specific roll 4) he was open to help others learn

This was on Argo - i think his name was Xfusion - but seem to recall that he was playing his sons toon.

[hoovskins]

Most/all casters carry some kind of mass damage spell. If thats the kinda group i get in, I have no problem charging ahead, grabbing as may mobs as i can, and bringing them back. Word of caution....This is usually recieved better if you let them know first.

[Quikster]

I think you have an entirely different argument than the op yours is if you can't do it well when it matters then don't .

Garth says when your in a group don't do it but i have to say sometimes it's the best way to get things done i love my 500+ crit bb's in amarath and even epic it's all about knowing when to use what tactics.

Why chase the things the cleric is kiting? just move on or make a better build and intim them off if you think you can do it better.

So the rant should have been Don't bb and kite if you are a newbsauce.

<------n00bsauce

I promise not to BB and kite

[Dozen_Black_Roses]

You are right,If i look at it from your side.But at the same time,that barb swinging for 550 a tick will also get licked for a lot meaning he'll need some love,my blades only need tough love :>

Quite true, your blade barrier's rock as do Silver's...made elite Amrath runs a cake walk