A question about +X and +elemental damage weapons etc

[kren.cooper]

A question about +X and +elemental damage weapons etc

Ok, my understanding so far is.

Bob the fighter has a warhammer, which does d8 damage. On average, he’ll do 4.5 damage with that weapon (excluding all other factors such as strength, specialisation etc)

Bob gets a +1 warhammer, so now does d8+1 damage. On average he’ll now do 5.5 damage, and hit slightly more often due to the +1 to hit – so obviously better.

If Bob gets a flaming warhammer+1 it does the base d8 damage, adds one for the magical plus, then adds another d6 for the flaming. So we’re on 4.5+1+3.5 or 9 damage with a +1 to hit.

At low levels the +to hit can be more helpful than the +damage, as stuff can be quite weak but hard to hit - thinking of the bats in necro doom on korthos for instance.

Hopefully that’s all right.

Now, under the bane description, it says that the weapon functions as if it were a +1 weapon against the target group. It gives the impression that it is in *addition* to any + from the weapon itself .
E.g. if Bob has a +1 human bane warhammer, and swings against an orc, he does d8(base damage)+1(magical bonus) damage.
If he swings against a human, he does d8(base)+1(plus on weapon)+1(bane target group)+d6(actual bane damage)?

Question 1
So, if Bob had a +1 human bane warhammer, and a +1 acid warhammer – would he actually be better switching to the human bane against human targets to get the slight damage and hit bonus from it?
Human bane = d8(base)+1(magic)+1(target group)+d6 (bane)=10 damage, +2 hit
Acid elemental=d8(base)+1(magic)+d6(elemental)=9 damage, +1 to hit

Of course, with the damage from bane/elemental/pure good etc coming from extra dice, it’s just as probable that you will roll a one as a six. Over time, you might average out to 3.5 or whatever… but your damage could spike or trough depending on the random numbers generated.
However, a + weapon does a fixed damage. A +3 warhammer gives +3 to hit, +3 to damage. If you were hitting on everything but a 1, then the +to hit makes no effective difference, and the +3 damage is slightly under the average you can expect from a bane/elemental/alignment type – but it is consistent.

Question 2
So, in theory, once you are able to use +4 weapons at level 6 or so, is it theoretically better to switch away from the +dice weapons to the fixed magic bonus types to give you a smoother and more consistent dps?

Again, I know that I'm exluding things like strength bonus, enhancements, feats etc - but I'm trying to understand the fundamentals here.

Question 3
As you continue to level, then the extra suffix’s start to be available on higher +x weapons again, so I presume that eventually you want to be looking for +5 weapon of elemental/alignment/bane damage… but do people have a rule of thumb for when they look at upgrading?

My guesses at the moment are:
get a +1 (elemental/bane/alignment) and use that until +4 weapons become available
use a +4 or +5 weapon until high enough level that you can switch to:
+3 (elemental/bane/alignment) become available to you, then switch to:
+x (elemental/bane/alignment) as each becomes usable

Thanks in advance for any advice on this.

[BLAKROC]

if i understand your questions then a few short ansers

a +5 weap will do more damaga than a +1 of (elemental) as it is a constant +5 damage compared to 1d6 from the elemental so +4 damage vs 3.5 if that makes sense ?

you will want to look for the highest + of (banes/elemental) that you can use at your level.

one of the better is holy as it it 2d6 instead of 1d6


there are prefixes and suffixes that can be found on weapons. ie holy of greater elemental bane, or say Holy burst of pure good. best thing is to look at different weapons in the ah or in house d shop and get a feel for what is available
and also that race restriced (rr) items are usable at two levels lower than normal. maybe some one else can explain better than I can, hope this helped a bit.

Blak.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Banes don't tend to give enough advantage over +pg/elimental weapons that they are worth carrying in my book. What is useful starting at L8 or 10 (I forget which) is greater bane. Having a stack of +1 greater bane weapons gives you an effective +5 weapon with 3d6 additional damage. You can also later find GB of elemental damage to further ramp it up.

Eventually you will probably replace almost all your damage weapons with a Green Steel damage weapon you craft in the Shroud (L14-16 for most people)

[Bronko]

A question about +X and +elemental damage weapons etc

Thanks in advance for any advice on this.

The best advice I can give you when trying to determine what is best for your character is to use something like the DDO Melee Damage Tool.

Damage calculators, like this one, allow you to enter the many variables that comprise a character's total Damage Per Second or DPS. DPS is pretty much the number by which some players create their builds around. The big advantage of these types of damage calculators is that they allow you to then change each variable one-by-one and it auto-calculates the final result.

[Matuse]

At low levels the +to hit can be more helpful than the +damage, as stuff can be quite weak but hard to hit - thinking of the bats in necro doom on korthos for instance.

Those bats are hard to hit because they move around like crazy, it has nothing to do with their AC, which is awful.

So, if Bob had a +1 human bane warhammer, and a +1 acid warhammer – would he actually be better switching to the human bane against human targets to get the slight damage and hit bonus from it?
Human bane = d8(base)+1(magic)+1(target group)+d6 (bane)=10 damage, +2 hit

Yes, a +1 human bane would be better than a +1 acid against humans. However, 1d6 is lesser bane. Normal bane is 2d6.

Of course, with the damage from bane/elemental/pure good etc coming from extra dice, it’s just as probable that you will roll a one as a six. Over time, you might average out to 3.5 or whatever… but your damage could spike or trough depending on the random numbers generated.

Burst effects on crits are peachy when they happen, but the only valid measuring stick is the average damage over thousands of hits, because that's how the game works. An element weapon does 3.5 damage per hit.

So, in theory, once you are able to use +4 weapons at level 6 or so, is it theoretically better to switch away from the +dice weapons to the fixed magic bonus types to give you a smoother and more consistent dps?

If the decision is between a +4 weapon and a +1 <element> weapon, then most likely the +4 will be better at around level 6 just for the ability to hit more often. It will be .5 less damage per hit, but the added hits will quickly surpass that. It should be noted that in this case you're comparing a +4 equivalent weapon to a +2 equivalent weapon, and the +2 is still doing more damage per hit. Make them equivalent (+3 element vs a +4), and it's not even very close. At higher levels, you're really not going to be missing much, but at level 6 (particularly if you're doing Elite difficulty) it can be a notable issue.

Again, I know that I'm exluding things like strength bonus, enhancements, feats etc - but I'm trying to understand the fundamentals here.

For nearly all effects, things like you describe here are unimportant, since they would be exactly the same for either weapon. The difference occurs with on-crit effects like <element> Burst, Banishing, Smiting, etc. Then your enhancements and such become important.

As you continue to level, then the extra suffix’s start to be available on higher +x weapons again, so I presume that eventually you want to be looking for +5 weapon of elemental/alignment/bane damage… but do people have a rule of thumb for when they look at upgrading?

An <element> is a +1 equivalency, so it's entirely possible to have a +3 element weapon at the same level as a +4 normal weapon, and the +3 element is going to be the better performer. You could even get a +2 <element> warhammer of Pure Good, for 1d8+2+1d6+1d6, for an average hit of 13.5 vs 8.5 for the plain +4 version.