Sorc with a touch of Bard?

[Dragavon]

My thread kinda went freeforall while i was away >.>

All threads do

[Damionic]

I repeat...

Having a bard lvl with a sorc class (not tested any other mix) DOES allow you to cast spells in light armour..

If you want to test it...follow my experiment.

1. Get a toon to at least lvl 5 (b1s4) (and do not pick any armour casting enhancements)

2. Pick a sorcerer spell (i.e from the sorcerer 2nd level spell tree) with a somatic component ( I chose glitterdust)

3. Put on some LIGHT armour with no shield (I used leather armour..just plain old leather armour from the harbor armour shop)

4.Go to any quest and cast glitter dust

5.Notice the complete lack of roll dice and the fact that your can cast the spell EVERY time!

....I even double checked this with my lvl 14 wizard (no bard lvls just a plain wizard)

and I got the dice roll and the spell fail.

Now..I dont know if its only spells that are on the bard spell lists or not...but it still works!!

[MissErres]

I repeat...

Having a bard lvl with a sorc class (not tested any other mix) DOES allow you to cast spells in light armour..

If you want to test it...follow my experiment.

1. Get a toon to at least lvl 5 (b1s4) (and do not pick any armour casting enhancements)

2. Pick a sorcerer spell (i.e from the sorcerer 2nd level spell tree) with a somatic component ( I chose glitterdust)

3. Put on some LIGHT armour with no shield (I used leather armour..just plain old leather armour from the harbor armour shop)

4.Go to any quest and cast glitter dust

5.Notice the complete lack of roll dice and the fact that your can cast the spell EVERY time!

....I even double checked this with my lvl 14 wizard (no bard lvls just a plain wizard)

and I got the dice roll and the spell fail.

Now..I dont know if its only spells that are on the bard spell lists or not...but it still works!!

That's been covered. But what are you going to do, switch armor in and out depending on which spell you want to cast?? I suppose you could, but sounds like a big PITA to me, especially in the middle of a fight. And just incase you missed it...NOT ALL SORC/WIZ SPELLS ARE SOMATIC! So wearing light armor on a sorc/wiz without reducing the ASF to 0% is something people need to be aware of. Can be done, is done, but do it with the knowledge that you may fail a critical spell at a crutial time. Besides, with AC bracers you don't need light armor, your robes/outfits will be just fine.

[Damionic]

That's been covered. But what are you going to do, switch armor in and out depending on which spell you want to cast?? I suppose you could, but sounds like a big PITA to me, especially in the middle of a fight. And just incase you missed it...NOT ALL SORC/WIZ SPELLS ARE SOMATIC! So wearing light armor on a sorc/wiz without reducing the ASF to 0% is something people need to be aware of. Can be done, is done, but do it with the knowledge that you may fail a critical spell at a crutial time. Besides, with AC bracers you don't need light armor, your robes/outfits will be just fine.

You diddent need to tell me that not all arcane spells have a somatic conponent (I might have figoured that out myself from playing since beta on Europe then USA)

The reason why I chose glitterdust is because only somatic spells suffer spell fail (it was my intent to prove this diddent suffer ASF)

also...why bother with this as you could get a bracer?...because it opens up other armours that can be worn for their enchantments on top of robes (seen a leather armour of magi? I know I have)

[MissErres]

You diddent need to tell me that not all arcane spells have a somatic conponent (I might have figoured that out myself from playing since beta on Europe then USA)

The reason why I chose glitterdust is because only somatic spells suffer spell fail (it was my intent to prove this diddent suffer ASF) There was no need to prove it, it was already discussed.

also...why bother with this as you could get a bracer?...because it opens up other armours that can be worn for their enchantments on top of robes (seen a leather armour of magi? I know I have) Your AC on a caster is going to be s*** anyway. Why waste trying to bump it one or two points, which still will be s***, only to fail a dice roll when you really need to kill something? IMO, the only way light armor works on a caster is if enhancements/items are used to drop the ASF to 0%, otherwise, completly not worth it.

Magi? lol... I can get that on robes and outfits just fine, not that I want something like magi... Might be good for a couple levels. Deathblock outfit of heavy fort, blue scale robes, not to mention a ton of other things that are better than MAGI! Go get ya a Wizardry item and throw that leather armor of the magi out!

[Symar-FangofLloth]

*blink*

Um. Making a Bard1/Wiz3, putting on the starter chainshirt (ASF20%)... none of my spells seem to be rolling against the ASF...

Glitterdust, Detect Secret Doors, Burning Hands, Nightshield, Ray of Enfeeblement...

Interesting.

[Damionic]

I do wish people will learn to read...

Sigh... Once more!!

Casting sorcerer spells with a splash of bard and with light armour DOES NOT ROLL A SPELL FAIL CHECK!!! (the game thinks your pure bard)

Really....I don't know why I bother :/

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Having a bard lvl with a sorc class (not tested any other mix) DOES allow you to cast spells in light armour..

If it works its an exploit/bug, expect it to be changed at some point.

[Noctus]

If it works its an exploit/bug, expect it to be changed at some point.

Yeah. If this is currently possible, its not how it should work. If it works, its a bug.


Expect it to be fixed, and do not build a character around using it. Do not splash Bard on your Wiz/Sorc just to have a minor armor advantage.

Remember all those "Yay, Evasion is possible in Heavy Armor" builds who based their build concept on a bug. And how they complained and then grudgingly rerolled when it got fixed. Dont fall into the same trap.

[Damionic]

Yeah. If this is currently possible, its not how it should work. If it works, its a bug.


Expect it to be fixed, and do not build a character around using it. Do not splash Bard on your Wiz/Sorc just to have a minor armor advantage.

Remember all those "Yay, Evasion is possible in Heavy Armor" builds who based their build concept on a bug. And how they complained and then grudgingly rerolled when it got fixed. Dont fall into the same trap.

Thats good advice..

But this armour "Bug" is not the reason I went Borc (Bard/Sorc)
[personally I don't think its a bug..because thats like saying that fighter/wizard mix cant use martial weapons]

It was because :

1.More Sp:
Bards use Charisma for their spell pool as do Sorcerers...so the mix will give double benifit from high charisma.

2.First Songs:
Bewitcher is a CC/Wand Spec so having the first song and Fascinate adds to the toon.
(before you start..I know you lose one Spell DC lvl for the mix..but thats easy to fix)

3.Cure Light Wounds:
As a Human Borc (for skill enhancements) self healing is good...and the higher sp pool makes that spell go very far.

4.Better Spell selection/wand usage:
Sorcerers have more spells then a bard and as bards get access to healing spells..any wands you get have a better rate to land (plus high UMD skills) [I know sorcs do not get UMD as a class skill but my lvl 14 int allows me to up it every level]

5. Good Haggle:
With this mix your not losing that much Haggle from a pure bard mix

6. Light Armour usage with sorc spells:
As this is not yet fixed..nor should it be (If bards get trained to cast arcane spells in light armour and my toon has that bard training then She shouldent have that training removed)

Thats why I went Borc.

[SouCarioca]

okay so fubar'ed may be a little exaggerated but he wont be the full sorc he could be in EndGame but I'm totally okay with that, I'm not that kind of player really.
Alright
Lvl8 actually, I am about 3k of xp from lvl9 >.>
Stats are 8 14 14 8 8 20 (without enhance, items etc.). With -> 8 14 15 10 8 24
Combat Casting
Mental Toughness
Improved '' ''
I first rolled him with more dex than needed which I didnt know. I like playing the character & will eventually reroll another sorc when I got 32pt unlocked. I figured okay i have a few extra Dex in the long run but wasn't needed. I heard about the bard skills and thought maybe I could get a little more oomph from the 'no arcane penalty lightarmor' but apparently not :P

If you started with CHA at 20, you are a drow, and thus are already a 32-pt build. I just maxxed my first toon as a drow sorc, and had a ball. By lvl 20 your CHA will be 30 with no items (though using a +2 CHA tome, which by then will come naturally. I got two as end-rewards for example). I put in 2 pts in INT for the extra skill pt. Being my 1st real toon, this came in very handy, and I mostly split : Concentration, UMD (these two are absolutely essential), Balance/Haggle. I forewent on either Diplomacy or Intimidate, a decision I do not regret. Gold will be an issue as a first toon (don't I know it), so Haggle is very practical, and I suggest a good haggle item to swap when making purchases or sales. A tip: pure haggle items in the AH tend to be ridiculously overpriced, but you can often find the same for MUCH less if it is combined with something else. Ex: Wise ring of haggling instead of a ring of haggling.

For the longest time, my build focused as an enchanter, which was a lot of fun, and fire/cold, and a good assortment of buffs.

For the lower and mid-levels, enchanting is a super solution to mobs and bosses. You can't charm the bosses, but you can charm their hirelings that beat the c*** out of them. Archers spread out on the ledge? Charm one and watch them focus on their traitorous brethren. Big mob up ahead? I love charming the spellcasters which wreaks havoc in their group.

Is he absolute? Hardly, but with very high spell pen (all feats and enhacnements) and CHA, his FOD and disco ball is very efficient. Don't forget you can re-spec the enhancements at any time. Costs about 30k GP each time, which as you level up will seem less and less. Also, do not forget to separate several toolbars for ready use. As a noob, this is something one may not do from lack of experience. That said, unless you invested your stats into Strength (get some STR gloves to avoid backpack issues) or something irreversible, I see no reason you would be fubared. Feats, enhancements, spells, can all be changed. Gold will come readily later. Those expensive 32k items you see now, will become 162K items later on.

HP will always be your bane. As a drow sorc, learn this, and learn to deal with it. Absolutely no one will be able to deal the damage you can deal, but a sneeze and a cough by a bad guy can easily take you out. It is a tradeoff.

One other thing: one level of sorc lost means losing a lvl 9 sorc spell, and roughly 150 SP. That is HUGE.

Oh yes, and above all: have fun!

[Shoal]

I do wish people will learn to read...

Sigh... Once more!!

Casting sorcerer spells with a splash of bard and with light armour DOES NOT ROLL A SPELL FAIL CHECK!!! (the game thinks your pure bard)

Really....I don't know why I bother :/

I splashed bard on a sorc a couple years ago, and ASF definitely applied on my sorc spells; otherwise, I would most definitely have such a character today. If it works now, it will work for about as long as when a 2-rogue-splash pally could use evasion in full plate.

[Lilliana]

I splashed bard on a sorc a couple years ago, and ASF definitely applied on my sorc spells; otherwise, I would most definitely have such a character today. If it works now, it will work for about as long as when a 2-rogue-splash pally could use evasion in full plate.

Didn't that work for years, evasion in full-plate? :P

[Belz]

surprised at all the people thinking that splashing a bard will not remove arcane spell failure on a sorc.

i spent the past week leveling my build currently 9 sorc/1 bard and the only time i get a spell failure roll is when i use my shield. when not using my shield there is zero ASF with my mithril chain shirt.

imo, splashing a bard level on a sorc is great. minor melee abilities (sometime you just want to swing at things!), proficiencies, full UMD ranks, cure wands and 1st level cure spell...i think even some cross class bonus SP. all this creates a very effective solo build, which was my primary intent for this guy.

[whysper]

Bug reported...

[Uskathoth]

I do wish people will learn to read...

Sigh... Once more!!

Casting sorcerer spells with a splash of bard and with light armour DOES NOT ROLL A SPELL FAIL CHECK!!! (the game thinks your pure bard)

Really....I don't know why I bother :/

Thank you. I keep hearing people say that bard/sorc can't cast sorc spells in light armor w/o ASF. However, when I asked if they've tested it all I hear are crickets. I think it's important to distinguish between what "should" be, based on DDO rules or (even more tenuously) PnP rules and what "is". It may be a bug and it may be unwise to count on it lasting but that's not the same as "it doesn't work".

Thanks for testing this. One question though, have you only tried with Glitterdust and is Glitterdust on both spell lists (I can't check from the computer I'm currently on or I'd look it up myself)? if so then the "bug" might be limited to only affecting overlapping spells.

*Never mind, Belz answered my question. I expect by 10th level he had to cast something other than Glitterdust.*

[Lorien_the_First_One]

personally I don't think its a bug..because thats like saying that fighter/wizard mix cant use martial weapons.

That's exactly what those who gained heavy armor from multiclassing said when evasion still worked. It's clearly and obviously a bug.

[whysper]

Thank you. I keep hearing people say that bard/sorc can't cast sorc spells in light armor w/o ASF. However, when I asked if they've tested it all I hear are crickets. I think it's important to distinguish between what "should" be, based on DDO rules or (even more tenuously) PnP rules and what "is". It may be a bug and it may be unwise to count on it lasting but that's not the same as "it doesn't work".

Thanks for testing this. One question though, have you only tried with Glitterdust and is Glitterdust on both spell lists (I can't check from the computer I'm currently on or I'd look it up myself)? if so then the "bug" might be limited to only affecting overlapping spells.

I know for an absolute fact that it used to fail correctly, tested in 2007 or so. It is quite possible it has gotten screwed up since. By the sound of Belz' statement, it is not just spells shared between the two classes - there is a rule ambiguity there - but all spells. I would still like to see some screenies of a combat log complete with tooltips and equipment before I consider Belz any more reliable than the people arguing against.

And abso-freaking-lutely do not build your character to rely on it continuing to work. It is not supposed to, and it has been reported.

[Belz]

I know for an absolute fact that it used to fail correctly, tested in 2007 or so.

Interesting. I can assure you, no dice role is made currenty for ASF while I am wearing a +4 MCS on a human Sorc 9/Bard 1. With a +5 Mithral Heavy Shield a dice role for ASF does happen.

For those who may not know this is not a new build idea. One of the MMO sites (maybe Ten Ton Hammer?) used to do concept builds and called the Sorc x/ Bard 1 the Siren build. Two friends in a guild rolled them up and their characters always wore robes. It was always fun running with them on those builds and is why I rolled one up now.

Regardless, whatever this turns out to be the loss of light armor will/does not break the build for me and my play style. It was fun while soloing and leveling the build to have some AC, but honestly it becomes less relevant at higher levels. Robes and displacement + stoneskin can easily be more effective than a 40ish AC.

[Damionic]

That's exactly what those who gained heavy armor from multiclassing said when evasion still worked. It's clearly and obviously a bug.

I think you misunderstood my point.

Taking a level of fighter will give you training in martial weapons and all armour types as well.

But what differs from the bard is the fact that bards are trained to cast spells using light armours..not just to wear them.

so..if your character took a lvl of bard then you would be taught to cast arcane spells with light armour thus removing the ASF incured by non trained wizards and sorcs that do not gain the methods taught to bards.

However..even with training in this method..a concentration check should be made (as we cant be on the ball all the time)