Dungeon scaling

[Creddi]

I know dungeon scaling works on number of players in a group, but does it work on level too?

The reason I am asking is that I have noticed there are occassionally posts of people doing things with characters lower than a quest's level or precisely at a quest's level that seem impossible at even just a little higher.

It may be they just are throwing more resources at the problem (pots, wands, etc), but there is a limit to which even that can help.

Curious...

[Junts]

scaling doesn't account for level

[SquelchHU]

Most likely they were soloing better because they had better equipment, likely from one of their high level characters. This is especially true if it happened at level 8 or lower where the difference in gear quality between someone's twinked alt and someone who just started playing is massive. Not to mention, the twinked alt also already knows what to do.

It's also possible they used consumables, but permanent items can do it too.

[Angelus_dead]

I know dungeon scaling works on number of players in a group, but does it work on level too?

Dungeon scaling works on class and hireling-ness. But in a small way it works on stats too, which in a very small way could account for a bit of what you're seeing.

What I mean is that a downscaled monster pulls back his damage to not hurt players too much with any one attack, and the amount of damage scaling is computed after resistances and DR. So in a minor way the scaling is more favorable to characters who are less well protected to start with. That can't account for your suspicions, though.

The reason I am asking is that I have noticed there are occassionally posts of people doing things with characters lower than a quest's level or precisely at a quest's level that seem impossible at even just a little higher.

If a person takes the time to post doing something, it's probably because it was unusual or difficult. If it was the easy result, then why bother taking the time?

Thus, posted achievements are not going to represent expected outcomes.

It may be they just are throwing more resources at the problem (pots, wands, etc), but there is a limit to which even that can help.

But it helps a lot! As an example, I was just looking at the PVP pit watching a rog7 use every kind of buff potion imaginable and then defeat level 16 fighters and rogues in melee.

[Creddi]

This was the most recent such post to catch my eye... http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=219363

Solo-ed Kobold Assault with Sorc First Time

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I'm sure this isn't a great achievement in the grand scheme of things, but it is a great achievement for me, so I just felt I had to share it.

Today, my Level 3 Sorc completed Kobold Assault solo (Normal Difficulty) using just Shocking Grasp, Magic Missile and the ever-trusty Eternal Wand of Fire. First time in (for me, the player, & obviously for my sorc), no deaths, no re-entries, no cures used. The only expendables I used was a few arrows, when the SPs ran out while I was in a tight situation.

Lots of patience and careful pulls.


Yiren.

Even on normal level, 200 kobolds is a lot to deal with purely on arrows and no other expendables, and using damage spells rather than charm.

[Angelus_dead]

Even on normal level, 200 kobolds is a lot to deal with purely on arrows and no other expendables, and using damage spells rather than charm.

Class matters, so him being a sorc can make the monsters weaker. (And a wizard would see them as weaker still!)

On normal mode with Spearbane bracers, a Sewer Smock, and Extended Shield then he'd be immune to all kobold damage except for critical hits.

[Creddi]

If class matters, is there any analysis of the weighting anywhere?

And if class matters, is it certain level doesn't? Is there any Dev post saying conclusively on either matter?

Edit: No extended sheild.... magic missile and shocking grasp were cited. He could have been twinked with a sewer smock, though.

[Angelus_dead]

He could have been twinked with a sewer smock, though.

The word "twink" is not applied to items the character can easily loot on his own.

[Creddi]

The word "twink" is not applied to items the character can easily loot on his own.

You figure they did waterworks and are still only 3rd? Its possible, but it doesn't seem probable to me. Course I tend to spend more time on Korthos than most, but there is quite a bit of xps from WW.

[Arlith]

You figure they did waterworks and are still only 3rd? Its possible, but it doesn't seem probable to me. Course I tend to spend more time on Korthos than most, but there is quite a bit of xps from WW.

It is very possible. Several people who have run many toons up from low levels bypass a lot of the lower level quests and run straight to WW. I have come out of WW on normal less than level three before.

There was a time a group of people would get together, run the four beginning quests on normal and come out to run ww still level one or barely level two.

Also, you can "bag a level" (have enough Xp for it and yet not take it). So perhaps he had XP for level four, just did not take the level.

[johnnyputrid]

You figure they did waterworks and are still only 3rd? Its possible, but it doesn't seem probable to me. Course I tend to spend more time on Korthos than most, but there is quite a bit of xps from WW.

I've rolled and rerolled several characters over the last few months and all of them (including my ultra-squishy WF rogue/wizard) have soloed WW at 3rd level. For some players like myself, it is more a matter of knowing the quest in and out as opposed to twinked-out gear. If you've run the quest a few times with higher level characters, sending a lowbie in with standard gear and adequate pots is do-able since you already know what to expect.

All it takes for me is one death - that one death sends me to the vendors/AH to get whatever pot or low-cost piece of gear I need to succeed. That is the main reason I solo as much as possible. My previous grouping experiences have all gone very badly, badly enough that I'd prefer to just do it myself and take the hits as they come. Tangleroot was the real teacher for me. I sent in a 4th level cleric to run the whole chain, not realizing that the final two quests were level 6 & 7 until I got my butt handed to me over and over again. But I pulled through it and finished it solo at level 4. To me that was a major accomplishment. Now all my characters solo Tangleroot around level 5 and I've never re-experienced the same amount of pain. Knowing the quest is half the battle...the other half is having a lot of cure pots on hand.

[Creddi]

Well I did acknowledge it as possible. It still seems improbable though. Even though not mentioned, extended shield is possible (since 2 spells are unaccounted for), but still no healing pots used (only expendables were arrows).

It is also possible they had a bow of reptillian slaying too, from a lucky collectable turn in.

As for the earlier suggestion that these are considered achievements, I agree that they are, but as for them being rare there is the question of how many try these things with understrength?

[Angelus_dead]

It still seems improbable though.

Keep in mind that you can reuse the rest shrine as many times as necessary, as long as you are "patient".

[Creddi]

Keep in mind that you can reuse the rest shrine as many times as necessary, as long as you are "patient".

The kobolds tend to path there. It is not that easy a thing to do until you are mostly done and you have to go out of your way to find the last few.

[Konek]

Well I did acknowledge it as possible. It still seems improbable though. Even though not mentioned, extended shield is possible (since 2 spells are unaccounted for), but still no healing pots used (only expendables were arrows).

It is also possible they had a bow of reptillian slaying too, from a lucky collectable turn in.

As for the earlier suggestion that these are considered achievements, I agree that they are, but as for them being rare there is the question of how many try these things with understrength?

I'd say it's fairly common for people to run quests solo +/- 1 level of the quest on normal below level 10 or so. My fvs/monk joined I think 4-5 groups from 4-10 and soloed the rest. I've found on many of my lowbies its actually faster to solo the quest than to run it with a group, not counting the time to form the group in the first place, with the way dungeon scaling works and the rarity of running into well geared and experienced players 4-10.

Although I would say soloing quests underlevel is less common because theres just no reason to do so anymore. Waiting till you're one level over the quest gives you the same xp and makes the quest significantly quicker.

[Angelus_dead]

The kobolds tend to path there. It is not that easy a thing to do until you are mostly done and you have to go out of your way to find the last few.

It is easy to rest with kobolds nearby. Their eyesight and accuracy are not that good. You can even get rested with a kobold clawing at you the entire time.

[Gremmlynn]

Lower level quests also lack a lot of diversity in the challenges they offer simply because lower level characters don't have as much diversity of means. The higher the level, the more diverse character abilities become, the more diverse the challenges become and the more necessary it becomes to bring a group of characters to have that diversity. also, the gear gotten from Khorthos quests tends to put characters ahead of the curve for the early levels as well as relatively high AC being fairly simple to achieve vs low level mobs via base stats and generic gear.

[Angelus_dead]

also, the gear gotten from Khorthos quests tends to put characters ahead of the curve for the early levels

Yes, the Kobold Assault quest was designed back at a time when level 3 characters would be lucky to own a +1 Sickle, and the idea of bracers with DR 3 was ludicrous. There has been enormous loot creep since then.

[Eleia]

Soloing some quests just isn't hard once you know the dungeon. I can take a fresh new character, untwinked, only use the pots and gear I have earned, and solo ww on normal at level 2.

However, I know what quests to run before hand, I know what clickies to keep and use. I know what items on korthos are worth getting, and which ones aren't.

I also know every spawn spot and every turn.

To be honest, I solo everything in the harbor at least up to hard, and solo most of the market as well.

Now with the dungeon scaling, I'm finding I can solo more quests at a higher level than I'm used to doing. It just comes down to knowing the game.

[Creddi]

My question, though, is 'is that really harder than soloing ww at, say, 4th, or are you just assuming it is?'