BAB 20 vs. 19

[Junts]

20 provides a significant and noticable increase. Multi-classers beware.

This is the portion to which I was responding, as it is demonstrably false.

[Impaqt]

This is the portion to which I was responding, as it is demonstrably false.

Then Demonstrate.

If there is 0 Increase between Levels 16-19 and there IS an increase from 19-20. we are right. Just because you feel the increase isnt "Significant" doesnt mean it isnt to some people.

[Junts]

Then Demonstrate.

What do you want, a fraps? Since I can only make 30 second movies, i think you would find them indistinguishable in a fraps.

Or would you prefer i told you that hasted+zealed 20 bab, thf does 110 attacks per minute, and that 19 bab does 109? That hasted+zealed s/b does 116 at 20, and 114 at 19? Twf is 116 and 115.5 in the same circumstances (per hand, ofc). A half a swing!

I could also add a variety of tidbits, like haste+zeal bab 19 produces the exact same number attacks as ultimate wind stance bab 19 (nice to confirm that one's working like 15+10 the way its supposed to) and that ultimate wind bab 19 + quarterstaff does the exact same 109 attacks as zeal+haste+greataxe and falchion do on a paladin (yep, they did really equal out all thf attack speeds identically, another handy piece of data to confirm).

But, ****, you probably have no confidence in my data anyway, so I don't see why I'm wasting my time providing it to you.

[Impaqt]

But, ****, you probably have no confidence in my data anyway, so I don't see why I'm wasting my time providing it to you.

You're right. Calling someone out on being wrong, then admitting you didnt actually test it yourself provides little incentive to provide impartial results.

[Junts]

You're right. Calling someone out on being wrong, then admitting you didnt actually test it yourself provides little incentive to provide impartial results.

I was quite clear about the BAB thresholds I have and have not tested; whether there is a scaling issue at 17 or 18 is completely separate as to whether there's a significant jump from 19 to 20 .. and .. what do you know. There's not. I neither called someone out on their wrongness nor made any testimonial as to variation between 17-18-19 BAB, and quite clearly stated I had no data on that.

The statement that there is a significant jump between 19 and 20 BAB and that multiclassers run the risk of self-gimping through multiclassing is false.

[Angelus_dead]

As I lack characters with those BABs, I must say I possess a keen lack of interest in their attack speeds

That is backwards reasoning. Simply not having a character with a feature doesn't mean the implications of that feature are unimportant to you. Suppose they are right and BAB 20 is a big boost above BAB 19: wouldn't you want to know that?

Not only would it help you plan future characters, decide to reincarnate, or give better advice to other players, but you also might have feedback to the developers as to whether it was a good idea or not for BAB 20 to be that significant.

[Junts]

That is backwards reasoning. Simply not having a character with a feature doesn't mean the implications of that feature are unimportant to you. Suppose they are right and BAB 20 is a big boost above BAB 19: wouldn't you want to know that?

Not only would it help you plan future characters, decide to reincarnate, or give better advice to other players, but you also might have feedback to the developers as to whether it was a good idea or not for BAB 20 to be that significant.

Except I wasn't talking about 19 BAB being unimportant to me; I have both 19 and 20 and have tested both in great detail. I am not all that interested in 16-17-18, as I have none of those.

It would help to read a little more closely.


I'm confused; where in this thread did any of you get the idea that I had not tested or was not interested in the performance of 19 BAB? I'm pretty clear about having tested 19 and 20 thoroughly and not 17-18 as I have no characters with them.

[Impaqt]

Except I wasn't talking about 19 BAB being unimportant to me; I have both 19 and 20 and have tested both in great detail. I am not all that interested in 16-17-18, as I have none of those.

It would help to read a little more closely.

It would of helped if you published your findings as well... All we have to go on at this point is "My top secret tests have revealed to me and me alone".

When My 13/6/1 gets Madstoned I feel/see a significant difference in her attack speed. and it was a Noticable difference when I went from 19-20 and I never noticed going from 16-19.

Thats just Seat of the pants feel there.. she plays a lot better at level 20 than she did at level 19. or 18. or 17.

[Junts]

It would of helped if you published your findings as well... All we have to go on at this point is "My top secret tests have revealed to me and me alone".

When My 13/6/1 gets Madstoned I feel/see a significant difference in her attack speed. and it was a Noticable difference when I went from 19-20 and I never noticed going from 16-19.

Thats just Seat of the pants feel there.. she plays a lot better at level 20 than she did at level 19. or 18. or 17.

Considering Madstone Rage provides a 20% enhancement bonus to attack speed and consequently 5% extra haste over a normal haste, it should indeed make you significantly faster. That's exactly why testing haste+stuff and madstone+stuff is relevant. Its also possible that they have fixed Madstone rage/divine power to properly grant you the higher attack speed of 20 BAB, though that's incredibly hard to isolate from it's 5% bonus haste and the fact that 19 BAB madstoned data remains slightly behind 20 BAB madstoned data (as you can see above) suggests that they did not fix that. However, both MSR and DP worked to bring BAB up to 16, and consequently should be worth a couple swings worth of attacks for any character below that range, whether the upgrade is at 15 or 16 or both.

I'm not posting my table because it's not done yet; it does, in fact, lack several important BAB lines, and it's part of an ongoing project of mine. I've got no desire to post incomplete data, as I'm sure you can imagine. I posted, a few pages up, some of the range of data sets I would like and cannot test. Anything regarding 17 BAB is purely curiousity until someone produces a viable and useful DPS build with such a BAB.

Edit: I see I only used haste/zeal data in my sample, here:

20 bab s/b haste: 108
20 bab s/b msr: 112
19 bab s/b haste: 106
19 bab s/b msr: 110/111 (its something like 332 attacks in 3 minutes or something obnoxious, so I havent decided how exactly to quantify it yet)


Madstone Haste used to be nothing but a pot-saving perk for soloing barbarians, but since the nerf of haste to 15%, it actually provides the largest enhancement bonus to attack speed in DDO and supercedes the need for haste as an attack speed improver. This is why all the inintial testing demonstrated that most characters were still a couple swings slower after patch 2 than they had been prior to patch 1. Its the -madstoned- attack speeds that are equal to what they were pre-patch.

My paladin s/b did 120/minute prior to Patch 1, and now does 116; with madstone, he's back to 120.

They were wise enough to index their end-result attack speeds to a buff that a vast majority of the playerbase had forgotten existed despite using near-constantly.

[LeLoric]

Madstone provides an additional attack speed boost tacked on to the bab increase so of course it gives a feel of increased attack speed try a dp clickie on a bab 19 char and you wont notice any difference as a less than 1% increase in number of swings over a minute is not noticeable to the human eye.

You accuse someone of not providing numerical evidence yet post your reasoning on seat of the pants feel?

[Angelus_dead]

I'm confused; where in this thread did any of you get the idea that I had not tested or was not interested in the performance of 19 BAB?

Post #16: Samadhi- "I have done no testing to confirm; hence the question to begin with" (meaning the question in the subject line, or BAB 20 and 19)
Post #17: Junts- "I lack characters with those BABs" (meaning BAB 20 and 19)

That was an editing error on your part. You had intended it to say something else:
Post #15: Impaqt- "WOuldt the real test need to be comparing 16,17,18, and 19"
Post #16: Junts- "I lack characters with those BABs" (meaning BAB 16-19)

Using the forum quote feature can prevent that kind of mistake.

[Junts]

Yes, it might have helped if you had read your comment more closely before posting it.

You intended to reply to post #15 (by Impaqt), but instead wound up replying to post #16 (by Samadhi). The meaning of a statement like "I don't have that" changes depending on the antcedent. Using the forum quotation feature will avoid that kind of mistake.


Post #15: Samadhi- "I have done no testing to confirm; hence the question to begin with" (meaning the question in the subject line, or BAB 20 and 19)
Post #16: Junts- "I lack characters with those BABs" (meaning BAB 20 and 19)

I was making the mistake of responding to multiple posts in one post without pasting down the quote text; that was my mistake.

[Shade]

As a service to the community I offer you this link:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=201535

Which is the current best and and most accurate guide to attack rates. It does not agree with Junts completely incorrect subjective data at all (done on a inferior and irrelevant attack style no less). But does agree with what I've said and what the developers have said. Trust who you will.

[BlackSteel]

i noticed an almost neglible increase for autoattack on a THF going from 19 to 20. The gain for twitch attacking was considerably higher tho.

[Junts]

As a service to the community I offer you this link:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=201535

Which is the current best and and most accurate guide to attack rates. It does not agree with Junts completely incorrect subjective data at all (done on a inferior and irrelevant attack style no less). But does agree with what I've said and what the developers have said. Trust who you will.

Oh, lets have some fun.

Attack Rates
                             Monkey's             Mine
S/B 20 Hasted                   108               108
S/B 19 Hasted                   106               106
Twf 19 haste/tempest            114               115
THf 20 hasted                   102               102
THF 19 hasted                   100               100

The numbers I quoted above were Haste+Zeal/Tempest, which MA does not have alot of in his thread. Some reading comprehension would help your attacks.

Between the data we have in common, there are only minor variations, as latency adds quite a bit to testing these (which is part of why I'm not done with my list yet .. I'm testing them all 3-4 times on multiple occaisions)

Considering Monkey and I test this data in almost exactly the same way, I am unsurprised in the least to see that we're so close on so many of these. I hadn't looked in his thread for a while.

edit: I forgot I had not entered some of my testing today in the table, edited one value that changed.

[Gol]

Junts, are you changing your tune now? I have (well, had, untill I TRed one) characters with 20, 19, 18, 17, 16, and 15 BAB. I personally tested them all using TWF and THF and found that 15 through 19 were all identical, and 20 had a boost. I had a hard drive crash and lost my data, but it was consistent with cforce and MA.

[Junts]

Junts, are you changing your tune now? I have (well, had, untill I TRed one) characters with 20, 19, 18, 17, 16, and 15 BAB. I personally tested them all using TWF and THF and found that 15 through 19 were all identical, and 20 had a boost. I had a hard drive crash and lost my data, but it was consistent with cforce and MA.

Consistently, through this entire thread, I've said that there's a 1 attack difference between 19 and 20 (data that MA happens to agree with me on), that that is inconsequential and not a 'massive difference' and that I have no data on BABs 18 and below.

I stand by all those things.

This thread is discussing 19 and 20, two things on which I have a great deal of data. The difference is 1 swing, which is at times 2 when there's a lot of attack speed bonuses in effect. At others, its not even noticable.

There's never been a disagreement between me or Monkey or Cforce; what there's been is my vocal disagreement at the statement that multiclassers will gimp their damage output by sacrificing many attacks without putting it in the context that that one attack accounts for less damage in a minute than a single strength bracket or the like. Its equal to roughly 1/6th the dps of 1 use of a tier 1 haste boost (which costs you 2 swings per hand to activate, and then grants you about 8 extra during the course of its duration, for a net gain of +6).

19 BAB: It costs you 1/5th of Haste Boost I.

Sounds like a massive difference. Oh wait, don't most 19 bab splashes get -5- haste boost I's?

[Twerpp]

Of course theres always the extra +1 to-hit to consider too.

MULTICLASSERS BEWAREZ!

[Gol]

Consistently, through this entire thread, I've said that there's a 1 attack difference between 19 and 20 (data that MA happens to agree with me on), that that is inconsequential and not a 'massive difference' and that I have no data on BABs 18 and below.

Ah. Yes, each tier of BAB (1/5/10/15/20) is an additional permanent 1.25% speed boost by the math.

[Junts]

Ah. Yes, each tier of BAB (1/5/10/15/20) is an additional permanent 1.25% speed boost by the math.

I'd generally agree with that assessment; this whole thread I've only been arguing with the language that suggests that that is a massive and crippling build mistake.