Warforged Paladin Intimitank questions

[Thaichi23]

Hello all, I thought I wanted to try my hand at an intimitank. Lemme know your opinions. With this build I can put a full point into UMD and INTIM each lvl. I could UMD heal/raise dead scrolls and use any RR item in the game. I know my dmg is going to be teh suck! I'm too lazy to do all the math but my saves, ac, umd, intim should be raid worthy right? I'd go toughness with racial toughness and paladin toughness for the hp.

I made a WF because I hate neg levels but really I know nothing about WF as its my first WF toon.
My starting stats are:
8 str
15 dex
13 con
14 int
9 wis
14 cha

Ending Stats:
14 str(8 base + 6 item)
22 dex(15 base + 1 rogue dex + 6 item)
20 con(13 base + 1 wf con + 6 item)
14 int(don't care about this...wanted 14 for combat expertise and +4 skills/lvl to max out UMD and INTIM)
16 wis(9 base + 1 tome + 6 item)
30 cha(14 base + 2 tome eventually + 3 enhancement + 5 lvl attribute + 6 item)


At first I thought of 18/2 paladin/rogue for the evasion and umd. I will be leveling charisma as my main stat. High charisma = high intimidate and umd. As a WF I'm going to be taking mithril body for the +5 max dex and also mithril fluidity to get it to +6 max dex which happens to be my dex mod with a +6 item so that was perfect.

Prestige Enhancement:
I can't decide on Hunter of the Dead or Defender of Siberys. HotD would get me better healing as an initmitank and extra dmg versus undead. DoS makes me more of tank but has me confused. It says it increases max dex of heavy armor but uhhh I'm a WF so it is uselss. It increases max dex of tower shields and that would mean that with Madstone Shield from reaver I could get +5 max dex bonus and with levvik's defender, +6 which is perfect.

Feats I want:
Mithril Body
Mithril Fluidity
Weapon Finesse
Combat Expertise
Toughness
Tower Shield
Skill focus: UMD & Intimidate
Improved Critical: Piercing(rapier)
I'd like to fit in shield mastery if I could.

Now as it is I can't get all those feats as an 18/2 pally/rogue so I thought why not splash fighter also and get tower shield for free AND an extra feat. I can't make use of DoS 3 anyways because DoS 2 gets me my max dex mod(unless I eat a +2 dex tome which I don't want to do).

Questions:
1)So the thing is now i'm thinking why not go with 2 levels of fighter for another feat which would make a 16/2/2 pally/fighter/rogue build. What would I be missing going 16 pally instead of 17?

2)I was told you can't have evasion with a tower shield. What about if I'm holding a mithril tower shield?

3)My buddy told me that as a WF I get an extra +2 size bonus to-hit is this true?

[Junts]

1: do not, do not, do not start with such a low strength. intimidate is not a universal solution to problems on DDO, and you are entirely useless in any situation that doesn't require intimidate (~80% of the game) with that str. I play a paladin tank with intimidate, and I can't stress how important it is that you make a character that has a viable method of dealing damage as well. No one is going to group with an 8 strength tank more than once. You will be straight up carried through most quests and raids in this game, which do not require the intimidate skill, and in many it doesn't work at all

2: defender of siberys also provides superior defensive stance, which is a stacking +4 to armor class, as well as +1 ac to your aura. Hunter of the Dead is a joke. If you want healing amp, get healing amp equipment.


DOS does not affect the max dex of mithral body at all, as its light armor. However, you lose 2 armor class by giving up dos 3 (1 stance point, and the free aura point).

[Quikster]

You will not be tanking end game raids with this build. Your intim will be two low to be dependable, and you wont be able to hit a thing, or cause damage when you do hit to generate agro.

This is for the few raids it is even worth having an intimitank. For the rest you will just be a pile on as you will not be able to do any damage at all. The cleric/healing bard will prolly out melee you.

[Junts]

By the way, everything your buddy told you was wrong: you get no bonus to hit as a wf, and you can evade with a tower shield.

Going 16/2/2, however, isn't going to salvage your build.

[WeaselKing]

you can evade with a tower shield.

I hear people say that they can't evade with a tower shield all the time. I gave up trying to correct them all.

[Ralmeth]

Sorry, I had a really hard time getting past the starting 8 strength. That is a really, really bad idea. There are endless mobs that need to be killed, so you want strength as high as you can reasonably afford it. Honestly, a Paladin 18 / Rogue 2 Pally intimitank is very difficult to build well due to the stat requirements. I recommend going with a 2 Fighter splash instead and dump your dex score down to an 8 and use those points on strength. If it were me on a 28 point warforged Pally DoS, I would probably go with the following.

str: 15 (8 points)
dex: 8
con: 14 (4 points)
Int: 12 (4 points)
Wis: 8 (2 points)
Cha: 14 (10 points)

Hope that helps.

[Thaichi23]

Hrm...the fact that it IS hard made me want to build one and test it out. Paladins need all the stats they could get. I ended up rolling a 18/2 pally/rogue with the following stats:

13 str
14 dex
13 con
14 intel
8 wis
14 cha

Unbuffed Ending Stats
20 str(13 + 1 tome + 6 item)
22 dex(14 base + 1 rogue dex + 1 tome + 6 item)
22 con(13 base + 2 wf con + 1 tome + 6 item)
14 int (i'll probably keep it at 14 don't care much about int)
14 wis(8 base + 6 item) This lets me cast lvl 4 spells right?
30 cha(14 base + 3 pally cha + 2 tome + 5 lvl attribute + 6 item)

Going with the following feats:
Mithril Body
Toughness
Combat Expertise
Improved Crit: Piercing
Mithril Fluidity
Bull headed
Tower Shield(when/if i get levvik's defender)

I think i'm happy with that. 18/2 will give me DoS 3 which would let me use madstone shield at a + 6 max dex which lets me use up all my dex. HP should be at about...380-400, intim would be at around 50, umd around 34, ac around mid 50s? I think that's the most str I am willing to put in since i'm not trying to be dmg output but more of hate/intim/ac/umd. Those numbers don't factor in greensteel or dt armor. I'm sure the AC/INTIM/UMD can be higher, but those are the numbers off the top of my head.

I won't drop dex down to 8 for more str because I wouldn't make use of DoS 3's tower shield mastery. Splashing 2 figher would give me what...+1 str and 2 feats? I don't see that being better than evasion, high umd, and helping me get a +6 dex mod. This setup gives me +3 more dmg than my original build and let's me get everything else I wanted so I think this is going to be a solid build. Thanks for the feedback everyone.

[Junts]

With your strength, you're going to struggle to pull hate even with the multipliers paladins get. Further, your end result intim and ac are pretty mediocre, though you haven't posted breakdowns for me to find places to improve them.

Right now this character's not viable in the endgame at all; the intim is mediocre, the ac is way too low (you need to post a breakdown, your ac isn't even helpful if its in the 50s) and your incoming healingrecieved is going to be so bad that people won't be able to keep up with your damage intake if you really do try to tank.

[Quikster]

Hrm...the fact that it IS hard made me want to build one and test it out. Paladins need all the stats they could get. I ended up rolling a 18/2 pally/rogue with the following stats:

13 str
14 dex
13 con
14 intel
8 wis
14 cha

Unbuffed Ending Stats
20 str(13 + 1 tome + 6 item)
22 dex(14 base + 1 rogue dex + 1 tome + 6 item)
22 con(13 base + 2 wf con + 1 tome + 6 item)
14 int (i'll probably keep it at 14 don't care much about int)
14 wis(8 base + 6 item) This lets me cast lvl 4 spells right?
30 cha(14 base + 3 pally cha + 2 tome + 5 lvl attribute + 6 item)

Going with the following feats:
Mithril Body
Toughness
Combat Expertise
Improved Crit: Piercing
Mithril Fluidity
Bull headed
Tower Shield(when/if i get levvik's defender)

I think i'm happy with that. 18/2 will give me DoS 3 which would let me use madstone shield at a + 6 max dex which lets me use up all my dex. HP should be at about...380-400, intim would be at around 50, umd around 34, ac around mid 50s? I think that's the most str I am willing to put in since i'm not trying to be dmg output but more of hate/intim/ac/umd. Those numbers don't factor in greensteel or dt armor. I'm sure the AC/INTIM/UMD can be higher, but those are the numbers off the top of my head.

I won't drop dex down to 8 for more str because I wouldn't make use of DoS 3's tower shield mastery. Splashing 2 figher would give me what...+1 str and 2 feats? I don't see that being better than evasion, high umd, and helping me get a +6 dex mod. This setup gives me +3 more dmg than my original build and let's me get everything else I wanted so I think this is going to be a solid build. Thanks for the feedback everyone.

Honestly, the way this build is shown it isnt hard, its useless.

intim will be:

23 ranks
15 item
10 cha
6 shroud
2 head
2 bullheaded

__________
58 unbuffed with a decent amount of gear
04 gh
02 bard
__________
64

64 is a decent buffed umd for most raids. But you will find that when groups are actually going to need an intimitank 64 falls short.

Your to hit with CE on will look something like:

18 base first swing
5 str mod
5 weapon
4 gh
2 recitation (cleric)
8 bard
3 DF
________

45-5 (CE)-2(TS)=38


38 with a bard is to low to hate tank.

a 50's ac and you will be smacked around by even the weakest trash from lvl 13 up.


You are going to have serious problems trying to do any type of tanking that involves any mob that isnt somehow incapacitated. Im sorry to be so blunt, but thats the way it is going to be. Your ac is very low for a tank. If you are talking about doing end game intimitanking you need to be at least 22 points higher for normal raids. Your hitpoints will allow you to be one shotted by one raid boss, and are low for the others even on normal with your ac. You will be able to intimidate some things, but you wont want to as they will kick the snot out of you.

You might be able to salvage this abomination into something that can at least intim and turtle up, but any group worth a lick wont need that. You need to have a viable dps option. You dont need to be elite dps, but you should be able to pull a weapon out and do some decent damge. This build the way it sits cannot do damage.

While it is your time/money etc, and you are certainly free to make this build, I would never ever recommend anyone put themselves through this.

[Thaichi23]

I didn't do an ac breakdown because I really didn't know the numbers but the way I'm looking at it, I'd have to level up DEX instead of CHA and go with composite plating and won't use tower shields. So basically what everyone is saying is that you can't build a WF 18/2 pally/rogue with a viable ac/intim/umd.

So then an 18/2 pally/rogue can only be built for dps, evasion, and umd to wear any item in the game? How about some suggestions on a stat distribution then? If i'm not leveling cha then my intim and umd will be what...say.....3-4 points lower. I can't chug down +2 tomes all over the place. I'm using 3 +1 tomes already and 1 +2 tome. You guys are saying I should lvl str then?

That means I would have to start off with ....15 cha? Eat a +1 tome to make it a base 16 for divine might 3 and then get paladin charisma 2 or 3 if I can find a +2 cha tome. I'd lose...around 3-4 ranks of intim and umd. So I would drop down dex since I need more str as you guys are suggesting. So then the build would looks like this:

15 str
9 dex
13 con
13 intel
8 wis
15 cha

end stats would be:
28 str(15 base + 2 tome + 5 lvl + 6 item)
16 dex(9 base + 1 rogue dex +6 item)
22 con(13 base + 2 wf con + 1 tome + 6 item)
14 int(13 base +1 tome)
14 wis(8 base + 6 item)
24 cha(15 base +1 tome + 2 paladin cha + 6 item)

Gaining: +4 to-hit
+4 dmg

Losing: -3 intim
-3 umd
-3 ac(+3 dex mod instead of +6)

Does +4 to-hit and dmg outweigh dropping 3 ac, 3 intim, and 3 umd?


I'll start off my AC calc since I don't know all the factors and maybe you can fill in some for me and figure out the ac with my build?
+11 mithril body and fluidity
+7 DT docent
+4 bulwark of good
+1 Defender of Siberys 3 aura enhancement
+5 combat expertise
+5 protection
+2 chaos guard(dodge)
+3 chattering ring(dodge)
+9 levvik's defender tower shield
+3 insight bonus levvik's set
+2 blocking
+1 haste(dodge)
+5 ranger barkskin
+4 bard inspire heroics(dodge)
+2 recitation
______________
64 AC or 61 AC w/str build

What else am I missing? Or is that my max AC? A wf pally/rogue can't get more AC than what i'm getting unless they are dex based which would screw me in both dmg/feats/umd/intim.

UMD(can obviously be higher):
33 @ lvl 20 w/30 cha
+2 rogue skill boost
+4 gh
+3 golden cartouche
_______
42 or 39 w/str build

So if I go Cha build i'll be at 5 dmg/to-hit, 64 ac, 42 umd, intim 64(from quikster)
If i go STR build i'll be at 9 dmg/to-hit, 61 ac, 39 umd, 61 intim.

Hrm....

[Junts]

You might want to look at Samadhi's thread in which he created an evasion paladin tank build as a thought experiment titled "pali for junts", its a drow but it'd probably be a good place to start to modify for your purpose.

And, yes, doing this with wf and being good at it would be incredibly hard.

[Thaichi23]

I just went to look at it now but that is a totally different build. Did you guys read the last part of my post? If I go str build, is my intim/ac going to be ok still?

[Quikster]

I just went to look at it now but that is a totally different build. Did you guys read the last part of my post? If I go str build, is my intim/ac going to be ok still?

I just woke up from a nap, so i dont want to try to line up a bunch of numbers. But let me spell out why it is difficult for you.

Intimidate is a useful skill when it is added to a skill set. It is difficult for a paladin to get a huge intimidate while maintaining other skill sets because of the limited feats a paly gets. When you add the -4 a wf'd takes to cha, it makes it very difficult.

-4 is not just a matter of dumping another 4 point in. By adding another 4 points over say a human to get to say a 14 starting cha you spend four extra build points. The problem worsens when you try to get a starting 16 cha. These build points take away from every other aspect of what you can do.

So now you have gimped all your other stats so you can gain access to a skill that is only situational. DPS is where its at in DDO and if you cant be mediocre at dps you really shouldnt build it. If you are mediocre you should bring other things to the table, ie: intimidate, high ac, buffs, healing etc.

I have been toying with a wf'd dps paly build but the only way i can see to do it so that i like it is with 36 points. Thats with no ac, no intimidate, and good dps. The reason for this is palys need to have a good cha to maximize their dps.

Fighters will always be able to have a higher intimidate then paly's. That doesnt mean a paly cant have a good intim score, but since the bar is set so high by fighters it is likely that end game dc's will remain just out of reach for palys to get perma locks with intimidate. Therefore it is even more important for a paly to be able to contribute in other ways (ie dps).

While you have picked a difficult task it wont be impossible, but it will always be a little wanting. So if you are ok with this, follow some of the advice being laid out for you and you can make a build you are satisfied with. Junts is very knowledgeable about this game, and has a little more tact then i do when telling someone their build stinks. While you may take what I say and discount it, dont if 4 or 5 reputable people are saying similar things

Hope something here made sense, im off to grab some coffee and wake up a little

[Habar414]

Well, hate to say it but I just ran a similar build, Ive gotten him to lvl 5 and sadly, after reading this, my eyes have been opened. Dang, I did ever so want to make a big 'ole hunk of holy metal to place between my allies and my enemies. Well, that bites. This has helped me on what to do with my tank. Thanks, I just wish defender of siberys could have been viable as a build option X|. oh well

[Hydro]

Just an FYI:

Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Prereqs: Level 18 Paladin, Defender of Siberys II, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, Paladin Resistance of Good III, and any Paladin Faith II enhancement.
Benefit: Protecting the weak from the depredations of the strong, you become a paragon of defense. This prestige enhancement increases the strength of all of your defensive auras, increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields and medium or heavy armor by 1, and grants the ability to enter a superior defensive stance or to defy your enemies in a glorious stand against evil.

So it should affect Mithril Body just Tier 3 though. I dont know if its bugged but I dont think so.

Oh and yes you need 16 Str, 8 Str ewwww...

[EAB]

The big problem with a Pally Intimatank is that this class is sooooo stat demanding and there really isn't a dump stat. In addition you are going to be feat starved compared to a fighter as well. To be effective you need the 32 point build unlocked and having some tomes would greatly help.

STR = need this for output damage, so you can do damage when not tanking.
DEX = Need to to be high as possible to add to your total AC, at the end game a few points will make a different.
CON = You need this to stay alive. For a Tank i would not have less then 14
WIZ = If you want to cast Pally spells later on you will need a 14 by end game. I would use this as your dump stat to start and just worry about finding + to WIZ items at the later levels.
INT = You need at least a 14 for the skills points, possible more and at least a 13, so that you can get combat expertise.
CHA = If you want to be good at using your Pally abilities such as smite, lay on hands which is the whole point of being this class.

[Trippy]

Just an FYI:

Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Prereqs: Level 18 Paladin, Defender of Siberys II, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, Paladin Resistance of Good III, and any Paladin Faith II enhancement.
Benefit: Protecting the weak from the depredations of the strong, you become a paragon of defense. This prestige enhancement increases the strength of all of your defensive auras, increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields and medium or heavy armor by 1, and grants the ability to enter a superior defensive stance or to defy your enemies in a glorious stand against evil.

So it should affect Mithril Body just Tier 3 though. I dont know if its bugged but I dont think so.

Oh and yes you need 16 Str, 8 Str ewwww...

It doesn't work with Adamantine Body, so I would guess it doesn't work with Mithril Body either, though I have not tried myself. Might be worth digging into before going too far with a warforged paladin tank build.

From the Offical Known Issues, "Paladin Enhancement, Stalwart Defender: The increase to max dex bonus is not being correct applied to Warforged with adamantine plating."

[EAB]

It doesn't work with Adamantine Body, so I would guess it doesn't work with Mithril Body either, though I have not tried myself. Might be worth digging into before going too far with a warforged paladin tank build.

From the Offical Known Issues, "Paladin Enhancement, Stalwart Defender: The increase to max dex bonus is not being correct applied to Warforged with adamantine plating."

It says heavy armor and adamantine plating is heavy armor, so why wouldn't this work? Mithril Body is considered light armor and will not work. This is because is has a Dex cap of 5, while Adamantine has a cap of 1. I am sure this did this for balance reasons.

[Trippy]

It says heavy armor and adamantine plating is heavy armor, so why wouldn't this work?

Because I love quoting myself

Offical Known Issues, "Paladin Enhancement, Stalwart Defender: The increase to max dex bonus is not being correct applied to Warforged with adamantine plating."

It is not working(bugged), because it is bugged(not working)

[Hydro]

It doesn't work with Adamantine Body, so I would guess it doesn't work with Mithril Body either, though I have not tried myself. Might be worth digging into before going too far with a warforged paladin tank build.

From the Offical Known Issues, "Paladin Enhancement, Stalwart Defender: The increase to max dex bonus is not being correct applied to Warforged with adamantine plating."

I should of known better... thanks.