What about Real PrestigeClasses?

[Schwarzie]

Suggestion:

Implement Real[tm] Prestigeclasses.

This game bases loosely on DnD 3.5E, and a huge amount of fun came out of all those limitless Combinations of different classes.

All those PrestigeEnhancements are nothing than pale in comparison.

I would like to see a Mystic Theurge (Arcane/Divine Combination), a Tempest (TWF Specialist), a Archmage (THE Wizard), a Blackguard (Evil Fighter), UrPriest (Atheist Divine Caster), Chameleon (Jack of all trades) etc pp. There are so many choices, all the combinations would make hundreds of possible characters.

[Angelus_dead]

I would like to see a Mystic Theurge (Arcane/Divine Combination), a Tempest (TWF Specialist), a Archmage (THE Wizard), a Blackguard (Evil Fighter), UrPriest (Atheist Divine Caster), Chameleon (Jack of all trades) etc pp.

Mystic Theurge: Under the rule system of DDO, the MT probably wouldn't be as terrible as it is in D&D. It could even be overpowered.

Tempest: (a) You can get it in DDO (b) you can be a TWF spec anyhow

Archmage: (a) Announced for DDO, (b) calling it "THE Wizard" illustrates the fundamental error in the creation of that prestige class, because it has no conceptual distinction from the Wizard base class.

Blackguard: (a) It's an evil paladin, not fighter, (b) evil characters aren't allowed in DDO, (c) if evil characters were allowed in DDO, they'd have to be the subtle kind of merciless selfishness evil, not the blatant and gratuitous evil of a Blackguard.

UrPriest: An atheist Ur-Priest wouldn't last long. They believe in gods; and they hate them all. Note that the influence of monotheism on the modern English language has caused an increased vagueness between "believe" and "worship".

Chameleon: You can already be a bard/rogue/barb or fvs/rogue/barb.

As a final note, be aware that the core design of D&D's prestige classes is seriously flawed, and the DDO method is better in many regards.

[Schwarzie]

Mystic Theurge: Under the rule system of DDO, the MT probably wouldn't be as terrible as it is in D&D. It could even be overpowered.

Tempest: (a) You can get it in DDO (b) you can be a TWF spec anyhow

Well, only as a poor copy. And only for Rangers. No Barbarian/Tempest, no Fighter Tempest (which btw would have a far easyer way to reach the prerequisites)

Blackguard: (a) It's an evil paladin, not fighter, (b) evil characters aren't allowed in DDO, (c) if evil characters were allowed in DDO, they'd have to be the subtle kind of merciless selfishness evil, not the blatant and gratuitous evil of a Blackguard.

In earlyer Incarnations of DnD there were the Antipaladins, in 3rdE there were later additions of other Paladins of chaotic good, chaotic evil and lawful evil alignements. Thje Blackguard itself resemles an evil version of the Paladin, true, but after all it was a Prestigeclass which could be taken by every melee class (well a wizard could qualify aswell, but i would count that as a "roleplaying challenge" )

And i cannot see why a Blackguard couldnt be a merciless selvish evil and has to run around crying "Blood for the Blood God".

UrPriest: An atheist Ur-Priest wouldn't last long. They believe in gods; and they hate them all. Note that the influence of monotheism on the modern English language has caused an increased vagueness between "believe" and "worship".

I wouldt not say that a UrPriest believes in Gods. He knows that they exist and he steals his spells from them. He even admits that they are terrible powerful creatures. Thats a huge difference to mere belief.

better in many regards.

Can you explain that further? I for myself dont like the Prestige Enhancements since its adds to the static feeling. The Prestigeclasses could be taken by basically everyone (Most of them at least), right now you have to be Ranger 18 to become Tempest, or Fighter 18 to become Kensai etc pp. I would like more versatility in that regard, and the current approach to Prestigeclasses drastically hinders that.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Well, only as a poor copy. And only for Rangers. No Barbarian/Tempest, no Fighter Tempest (which btw would have a far easyer way to reach the prerequisites)

Each of the other melee classes (besides Monk, hurry up Turbine!) has their own PrEs. Everyone doesn't need be a Rogue Tempest or a Fighter Tempest or a Barbarian Tempest. We have Assassin/Acrobat Rogues, Kensai Fighters and Frenzied Barbarians.

In earlyer Incarnations of DnD there were the Antipaladins, in 3rdE there were later additions of other Paladins of chaotic good, chaotic evil and lawful evil alignements. Thje Blackguard itself resemles an evil version of the Paladin, true, but after all it was a Prestigeclass which could be taken by every melee class (well a wizard could qualify aswell, but i would count that as a "roleplaying challenge" )

And i cannot see why a Blackguard couldnt be a merciless selvish evil and has to run around crying "Blood for the Blood God".

No comments here because I don't know anything about this.

I wouldt not say that a UrPriest believes in Gods. He knows that they exist and he steals his spells from them. He even admits that they are terrible powerful creatures. Thats a huge difference to mere belief.

An atheist is someone who does not believe in any god(s). That means they do not think they exist, do not worship them, ect. and live as though they were not real. Saying an UrPriest would "know that gods exist" invalidates them being an atheist, since an atheist does not think gods exist.

Can you explain that further? I for myself dont like the Prestige Enhancements since its adds to the static feeling. The Prestigeclasses could be taken by basically everyone (Most of them at least), right now you have to be Ranger 18 to become Tempest, or Fighter 18 to become Kensai etc pp. I would like more versatility in that regard, and the current approach to Prestigeclasses drastically hinders that.

You don't need to be Ranger 18 to be a Tempest. Nor do you need to be Fighter 18 to be a Kensai. My rogue will be rogue 13/ranger 6/monk 1 when she's done, grabbing Ranger Tempest 1 and Rogue Acrobat 2. There are also paladin 14/ranger 6 builds out there that are Knight of the Chalice 2 and Tempest 1. Hell, you could grab 3 different classes PrEs if you wanted to, doing something Ranger 6/Figher 8/Barbarian 6, getting Tempest 1, Kensai 1 and Frenzied Berserker 1.

I'm not sure I see anything wrong with this.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Hell, you could grab 3 different classes PrEs if you wanted to, doing something Ranger 6/Figher 8/Barbarian 6, getting Tempest 1, Kensai 1 and Frenzied Berserker 1.

4, if you were an Elf, and didn't have any Ranger levels. Assuming you wanted Arcane Archer on your build ^^
But it'll be more true as more racial PrEs come out.

[AylinIsAwesome]

4, if you were an Elf, and didn't have any Ranger levels. Assuming you wanted Arcane Archer on your build ^^
But it'll be more true as more racial PrEs come out.

Hehe, true.

Let's see, Wizard 2, Fighter 6, Rogue 6, Barbarian 6, Acrobat 1, Kensai 1, Fenzied Berserker 1, Arcane Archer. Would be horrible though.


I am doing a Ranger 1/Fighter 18/Wizard 1 Archer Archer + Kensai 3 (longbow specialization) right now though.

[Schwarzie]

Each of the other melee classes (besides Monk, hurry up Turbine!) has their own PrEs. Everyone doesn't need be a Rogue Tempest or a Fighter Tempest or a Barbarian Tempest. We have Assassin/Acrobat Rogues, Kensai Fighters and Frenzied Barbarians.

Yes, exactly THAT is the problem! The current system of PrEs is totally static. Each Tempest HAS to be Ranger, each Stawart Defender HAS to be Fighter etc pp. You seriously lack choice, something i really liked in the PrC System in DnD 3(.5)rdE

An atheist is someone who does not believe in any god(s). That means they do not think they exist, do not worship them, ect. and live as though they were not real. Saying an UrPriest would "know that gods exist" invalidates them being an atheist, since an atheist does not think gods exist.

Atheist was the wrong word.

You don't need to be Ranger 18 to be a Tempest. Nor do you need to be Fighter 18 to be a Kensai. My rogue will be rogue 13/ranger 6/monk 1 when she's done, grabbing Ranger Tempest 1 and Rogue Acrobat 2. There are also paladin 14/ranger 6 builds out there that are Knight of the Chalice 2 and Tempest 1. Hell, you could grab 3 different classes PrEs if you wanted to, doing something Ranger 6/Figher 8/Barbarian 6, getting Tempest 1, Kensai 1 and Frenzied Berserker 1.

And again: Totally static. You dont have any choice with that. (Sure you have the choice between playing Ranger with or without Tempest but thats the same choice like shooting in your own leg or dont.) And you have to be XXX 18 to completely take the Boni from the Enhancement.

By taking a class you determine your PrestigeEnhancements. Thats my problem with the current system.

[toughguyjoe]

It would Appear to me that A_D has never really given Prestige classes a chance.

Just saying. I've played with many of them, tweaked, messed about, and found a fair amount of good prestige classes.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Yes, exactly THAT is the problem! The current system of PrEs is totally static. Each Tempest HAS to be Ranger, each Stawart Defender HAS to be Fighter etc pp. You seriously lack choice, something i really liked in the PrC System in DnD 3(.5)rdE

You're right.

We should be able to have Stalwart Defender Pure Barbarians, and Frenzied Berserker Pure Paladins, along with Tempest Pure Wizards and Arcane Archer Pure Rogues.

Makes perfect sense, doesn't it!?!

[/sarcasm off]


Alright if you're opening up Prestige classes to other classes (such as allowing a Fighter to be a Tempest), you're going to have to restrict which classes can get which prestige class. For example, it wouldn't make any sense for any other class than a Barbarian to be a Frenzied Berserker. It doesn't make any sense for any other class besides a Ranger to a Deepwood Sniper. So you'd have to have to limit the choices that way as well.


But that ignores the bigger issue, which is that it would completely change the state of the game, and it would require Turbine to completely redo almost every classes's enhancements so that all the melee classes can be a Tempest, or a Kensai.

I for one, vote no.

[Angelus_dead]

He knows that they exist and he steals his spells from them. He even admits that they are terrible powerful creatures. Thats a huge difference to mere belief.

Incorrect. You are using the word "belief" to mean something that it does not. That is a rather popular and widespread definition, but it is not the usage involved in the word "atheist".

An atheist does not think any gods exist, which is different from deciding he doesn't want to worship them. (Within a D&D setting it is possible to have a kind of atheist who claims that any specific god is just an extraplanar epic caster, but that's getting into semantics)

Can you explain that further? I for myself dont like the Prestige Enhancements since its adds to the static feeling. The Prestigeclasses could be taken by basically everyone

The good thing about DDO's prestige design is that training them doesn't reduce your levels in a base class. D&D has hundreds of official prestige classes, and the large majority of them suck and are worse than staying in a base class.

Whether the prestige can be accessed by one or many base classes is a separate issue.

[maddmatt70]

I agree with you OP I would and always would have loved if they implemented prestige classes instead of enhancements. The problem is/was a programming issue i.e. it would have taken too much time to implement true prestige classes. Who knows maybe if DDO keeps gaining popularity the devs can revisit this issue again; however, it would be a pretty costly adventure and require an overhaul of the enhancement system.

[Falco_Easts]

I wouldt not say that a UrPriest believes in Gods. He knows that they exist and he steals his spells from them. He even admits that they are terrible powerful creatures. Thats a huge difference to mere belief.

Huh?

A dictionary is your friend. Try to get to know one by looking up the meaning of belief.

[EAB]

Mystic Theurge: Under the rule system of DDO, the MT probably wouldn't be as terrible as it is in D&D. It could even be overpowered.

Tempest: (a) You can get it in DDO (b) you can be a TWF spec anyhow

Archmage: (a) Announced for DDO, (b) calling it "THE Wizard" illustrates the fundamental error in the creation of that prestige class, because it has no conceptual distinction from the Wizard base class.

Blackguard: (a) It's an evil paladin, not fighter, (b) evil characters aren't allowed in DDO, (c) if evil characters were allowed in DDO, they'd have to be the subtle kind of merciless selfishness evil, not the blatant and gratuitous evil of a Blackguard.

UrPriest: An atheist Ur-Priest wouldn't last long. They believe in gods; and they hate them all. Note that the influence of monotheism on the modern English language has caused an increased vagueness between "believe" and "worship".

Chameleon: You can already be a bard/rogue/barb or fvs/rogue/barb.

As a final note, be aware that the core design of D&D's prestige classes is seriously flawed, and the DDO method is better in many regards.

I couldn't have said it better myself. No really I couldn't have. I agree DDO does a great job handling this and how they handle it through using the enhancement system. For new players and people not familiar with Prestige Classes it's easier to identify. Everyone knows what a Ranger is but not everyone would recognize what a Tempest is.

I think it would be cool if DDO had titles Like their Turbines other MMO. Yes, you can put whatever for surname but if you took 2 levels in Rouge and had the met certian skill stats then trap smith would be cool by your class or some symbol to let people know when looking for groups that you are good with traps, even though not full Rogue.

[Robert4818]

UrPriest: An atheist Ur-Priest wouldn't last long. They believe in gods; and they hate them all. Note that the influence of monotheism on the modern English language has caused an increased vagueness between "believe" and "worship".

Actually, the Unpriest would actually be quite survivable in Eberron. Since the gods of Eberron are so distant, its quite possible to be an atheist, or even be the polar opposite of the god you claim to serve, while gaining divine magic from them. (Look at the corruption in the Silver Flame)

EDIT: Wow, I need to actually look at dates when searching around for info before I actually comment.

[Memnir]

-redacted due to Necro-

[1jazzz]

i think you're asking for a reinventing of the PrEs, to be closer to the PnP. meaning instead of having PrE limited to class/race, you can take any PrE as long as you have the prerequisite for it. i'm all for this

tho i'd like to see cross-class and or alignment specific PrEs.

this will make for very interesting builds

[decease]

doubt it will ever be done.. i mean it seem they want to keep the max level around 25..atleast for now..

and after they have epic done it would be way too late to change the entire setting it seem.. or i could be wrong