1st Pally Build, Drow 2HF. Feedback appreciated.

[gencydefen]

Hi everyone,
I'm looking to get feedback on a drow paladin build. This is my first time, so please be gentle!
My intention is to use two-handed weapons and dish out damage, yet also be able to help the party with healing and raising. I will not actually be keeping the Hunter of the Dead prestige line all the way to level 20, but swapping that out for Knight of the Chalice whenever that becomes appropriate.
I currently don't have access to resources for things like tomes, etc. although by level 20 this may have changed.
Is there anything that should be moved around here - stats to raise or lower, enhancements to take earlier or later, etc.? Will this build be viable end-game once I've reset my prestige enhancement?
Your advice & suggestions will be much appreciated.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.14
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Female
(20 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 302
Spell Points: 235 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 22
Reflex: 16
Will: 15

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    18
Dexterity            12                    12
Constitution         12                    12
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom               10                    10
Charisma             17                    23

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                    12.5
Bluff                 3                     6
Concentration         1                     1
Diplomacy             3                     6
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                3                     6
Heal                  0                     2
Hide                  1                     1
Intimidate            3                     6
Jump                  5                    15.5
Listen                0                     2
Move Silently         1                     1
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     0
Search                0                     2
Spot                  0                     2
Swim                  3                     4
Tumble                n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device      n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Heal I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I


Level 2 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I


Level 4 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning I


Level 5 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Heal II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Improved Turning I


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Hunter of the Dead I


Level 7 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II


Level 8 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning II


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Redemption I


Level 10 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Hunter of the Dead II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma III


Level 13 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 14 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good IV
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III


Level 16 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 17 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II


Level 19 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty


Level 20 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might IV

[Junts]

Since you're thf, you aren't getting a lot out of 12 dexterity; you'd get more out of putting those points somewhere else.

To be honset, your best bet would be to drop dex to 10 and wis to 8 and take another 2 points of constitution. If not that, then take one more point of strength. Remember you generally get an odd amount of post-creation multipliers in relatively achievable gear (5 levels, 3 tome, 3 exceptional, rage/madstone etc are all even), so starting at an odd number is generally a better idea. On the other hand, its a pretty small issue either way. However, 2 dex and 2 wis are not the best things to do with your last 4 points, for sure.

I think you would find that since you are only using one of the stats drow are good at (cha) that you could get a better build out of another race. Drow are primarily a big deal for two weapon paladins, who need copious amounts of two stats drow get boosts to. When you're only using one of those stats, you're better off with a 32 pt human, generally. For example, a 32 pt human could start at 17 str, 14 con and 17 cha, and get the same skill points/level, which is either 2 con or 1 str better than you'll be able to get with a drow.

However, if you don't have 32 pt builds, then this is an excellent way to do a 2 handed build (with the above tweak).

I would, however, strongly advise that you drop weapon focus for a useful feat. It is a very, very bad feat on DDO. I would suggest that you adjust your feat progression and take power attack in that slot and work in Extend Spell: paladins are reliant on several short-duration buffs, and having to re-cast them less often saves you both time and hassle. Further, as a relatively unequipped character, they will drastically improve your mana efficiency, which will be important before you have crafted gear.


Lastly, you are a paladin with great charisma: get use magic device! You won't regret it, even though it won't be that useful (outside of race restricted gear) for a while.

I didn't look at your enhancements, because those tend to be incredibly tweakable.

[spifflove]

18 + level ups
10
12
10
08
16

[captain1z]

That 12 constitution on a two handed fighter who by default wont have much of an AC is gonna hurt big time. I wasnt even able to look at the rest of it when I saw that, it breaks everything else.

You really should build the stat points more like a fighter to do well and that means str and con at least 16 to start. (14 if you have access to tomes)

[Junts]

That 12 constitution on a two handed fighter who by default wont have much of an AC is gonna hurt big time. I wasnt even able to look at the rest of it when I saw that, it breaks everything else.

You really should build the stat points more like a fighter to do well and that means str and con at least 16 to start. (14 if you have access to tomes)

16 starting constitution on a drow build is not even remotely realistic. 12 con is not crippling on a low-ac paladin, as you've got a lot of lay on hands and such things. Ensuring access to divine might enhancements is very important on a dps paladin.

While I'd agree a 17/14/17 human build is better if the OP has 32 point builds, in the 28 pt realm this is pretty fine, and he won't have that bad a time.

[captain1z]

16 starting constitution on a drow build is not even remotely realistic. 12 con is not crippling on a low-ac paladin, as you've got a lot of lay on hands and such things. Ensuring access to divine might enhancements is very important on a dps paladin.

While I'd agree a 17/14/17 human build is better if the OP has 32 point builds, in the 28 pt realm this is pretty fine, and he won't have that bad a time.

Id say dump Int to 8 and drop charisma to 14 and bump that con to 16. 16 con is very realistic and very needed....... having 200 hp on a 2handed fighter at level 16 is not cool man.

[Junts]

Id say dump Int to 8 and drop charisma to 14 and bump that con to 16. 16 con is very realistic and very needed....... having 200 hp on a 2handed fighter at level is not cool man.

Dude, he's a drow.

Do yo uunderstand how divine might works? With 12 base con, he will run ~500 hp before rages or madstone rages. He will have enough hit points. He -can't- start with 8 intelligence, and if he starts with 14 charisma he's signing up to give up +4 damage per swing. You think that's a good idea on a DPS build? This is not a barbarian, it gets more dps from charisma than it does from strength until 20 base+tome charisma is reached. Do you understand math?

[SimVerg]

Should go 16, 16, 14, 8, 10, 16 so that when you realize THF on a drow paladin is a mistake, you don't have to totally reroll the character.

[Junts]

Should go 16, 16, 14, 8, 10, 16 so that when you realize THF on a drow paladin is a mistake, you don't have to totally reroll the character.

That, too. If you want a thf paladin, you're best off with human or elf (falchion enhancements!)

Though, to be fair, this would out-perform any 28pt 2hf build of another race.

[captain1z]

Dude, he's a drow.

Do yo uunderstand how divine might works? With 12 base con, he will run ~500 hp before rages or madstone rages. He will have enough hit points. He -can't- start with 8 intelligence, and if he starts with 14 charisma he's signing up to give up +4 damage per swing. You think that's a good idea on a DPS build? This is not a barbarian, it gets more dps from charisma than it does from strength until 20 base+tome charisma is reached. Do you understand math?

get upset, get snarky and insult all you want....... advise him to go 12 con and watch him die multiple times in every quest that has heavy hitters. He will be discouraged and he will re-roll. So please use bold text all you like it wont matter to me just know you are helping him gimp himself.

[Posterboy]

Id say dump Int to 8 and drop charisma to 14 and bump that con to 16. 16 con is very realistic and very needed....... having 200 hp on a 2handed fighter at level 16 is not cool man.

get upset, get snarky and insult all you want....... advise him to go 12 con and watch him die multiple times in every quest that has heavy hitters. He will be discouraged and he will re-roll. So please use bold text all you like it wont matter to me just know you are helping him gimp himself.

When you are on shaky ground already, its best not to go on the attack a second time. Note the 2nd line of the OP "I'm looking to get feedback on a DROW paladin build." The problems that arise from your proposed stat changes are... #1) Drow start out with 10 int, it is not possible for him to lower his int to 8 and still remain a drow. #2) Drow start out with 6 Con, in order for him to raise his Con up to 16, he would have to spend 16 of his 28 build points raising constitution. 6 points gets him to 12, 4 more points to get to 14, and 6 more to get to 16. This is why Juntz said it was unrealistic to raise Con to 16 on a drow, there would only be 12 build points left to add to all other stats. Since you also advised 16 strength (at a cost of 10 build points), this would only leave 2 build points left for (assuming) charisma, leaving his final stats at 16,10,16,10,8,12. On a pure paladin, 12 starting charisma is probably a reroll due to lack of qualification to Divine Might 2 without a +2 Cha tome, DM3 w/o a +4 tome and can never qualify for DM4 without spending level up points on Cha. Your comments would have been fine if you advised choosing a different race, in which case 8 Int and 16 Con would both be possible, realistic and probably not a bad idea.

Junts gave good advice several times. I like Simvergs line of thinking as well. The option to change to 2WF could come in handy. For 2WF, Str16,Dex16,Con12,Int10,Wis8,Cha16 is a good place to start and would be passable as 2HF as well. If you are sure about the 2HF, I would second Junts recommendation on 16Str,10Dex,14Con,10Int,8Wis,17Cha, which gives you a pretty solid Drow Paladin. Good luck!

[captain1z]

would only leave 2 build points left for (assuming) charisma, leaving his final stats at 16,10,16,10,8,12. On a pure paladin, 12 starting charisma is probably a reroll due to lack of qualification to Divine Might 2

Junts gave good advice several times. I like Simvergs line of thinking as well. The option to change to 2WF could come in handy. For 2WF, Str16,Dex16,Con12,Int10,Wis8,Cha16 is a good place to start and would be passable as 2HF as well.

If you are sure about the 2HF, I would second Junts recommendation on 16Str,10Dex,14Con,10Int,8Wis,17Cha, which gives you a pretty solid Drow Paladin. Good luck!

Really I would advise building a paladin to 20 before buying into the belief that charisma is more important than str or con.

1 - the stats you broke down 16/10/16/10/8/12 are fine and I would go 10/10 on wis/cha

2 - 16/16/12/10/8/16 is not when you dont have tomes available as the op says he doesnt

3 - 16/10/14/10/8/17 is much better even if it is only a 2 pt bump its something

4- yes I knew he was a drow it was an oversight forgetting they start at 10 int as I was search for options to raise his con....happens.

5 - Ive been rolling paladins for 4 yrs and melees in general as well. I roll far better melees than I do casters.......... this is not my first rodeo so to speak. If I have learned anything in this game in that time its that you dont start a melee character with 12 con without tomes to support that. Yes your divine might will get you +8 to damage but when the mob you are hitting turns around and drops you to 50 hp do you keep swinging or do you heal yourself. Your playstyle will change and push you toward the side of caution because you will have to always be prepared for this to happen. When your thinking about hp you are not thinking about dps.


6 - Toughness enhancements, pre's, soveriegn healing, smites, exhalted smites, aura's of good, defense, saves all that stuff costs APs now take divine might...... you need to cut back on something and if you dont wanna cut out the stuff that lets you qualify for something else you want where do you cut and how many aps do you have left?

Show me and look at what you did not take........... show me seriously and show me what levels you are taking them at please. 4 APs per level.


I will leave this alone from this point on, as I had to learn the same way everyone else did anyway. I have had a paladin with 30 charisma before. A drow with 12 con starting and 18 charisma....... she was deleted at 16th level for a reason in favor of my new level 17 pali with 28 str, 26 con and 20 charisma (10 starting I think).

[Junts]

I guess you just don't understand the proportion of dps that a paladin gains from its charisma statistic.

What you propose is roughly equivalent to telling a thf barbarian that he shouldn't start with more than 14 strength because he's got higher priorities. In fact, in terms of damage per attack, its almost exactly equivalent to that (6 and 6).

Would you make the first suggestion? No? Then so is starting at 10 cha on a paladin. If you're going that low, you're giving up pretty much the entire damage bonus that favors paladin thf over fighter or barbarian.


Of all the things you might cut out becuase AP are tight, divine might is .. well, actually, just about the last one; it adds -way- more damage output than smites or even divine sacrifice (though divine sac is unparalleled in AP to DPS efficiency).


I can certainly appreciate that a 18 cha drow paladin was a terrible idea before divine might and twf kotc drow, but I'm running a 12 con base paladin right now, and I've been too lazy to even go back and get gfl on my dragontouched (though with 35 shroud hp) and I can't say I really notice the hit points being a problem. 20-40 hp does not make or break a melee build capable of massive self-healing, something you've sacrificed tremendously on your build; lay hands over 300 points kind of make up for not having 20 hit points on your max, and anything over 500 is really fine. I'm running 450 right now and not having an issue.

[gencydefen]

Thank you all for your feedback. I really appreciate the time you all spent reviewing and responding to my post.

I had assigned my stats with the idea that a 12 Dex would let me use 1 point of dex while wearing full plate, and a 10 Wisdom would let me cast the highest levels of paladin spells with a +4 item instead of a +6. High stat bonus items are very expensive!

Speaking of plat, my choice to go with two-handed fighting is economically driven. On my server (Ghallanda) purchasing a decent set of weapons for a two-weapon fighter is an extremely expensive endeavor. Fancy rapiers, specifically, are usually a few million gold. I also don't have access to several million gold, so the idea of only having to buy one new weapon every two levels rather than two more is very appealing.

I did initially have UMD in place of Jump, but decided against it when I saw that I would only be able to raise it to 16.5 or so by level 20. Is that high enough to be very effective endgame?

I like the suggested feat changes very much and will implement those changes.

I do not have access to 32-point builds.

Lastly - and this is just a minor detail really, but I'm not a boy.

Thanks again for your comments and suggestions.

[excess]

get upset, get snarky and insult all you want....... advise him to go 12 con and watch him die multiple times in every quest that has heavy hitters. He will be discouraged and he will re-roll. So please use bold text all you like it wont matter to me just know you are helping him gimp himself.

I hate to keep bringing this up in every con discussion around these parts, but, we're talking about a 20HP difference going to 14 (40 with the unrealistic 16 on a drow). When it comes down to it, your HP is much more heavily reliant on equipment as on 12 or 14 or 16 starting con.

[Posterboy]

Thank you all for your feedback. I really appreciate the time you all spent reviewing and responding to my post.

I had assigned my stats with the idea that a 12 Dex would let me use 1 point of dex while wearing full plate, and a 10 Wisdom would let me cast the highest levels of paladin spells with a +4 item instead of a +6. High stat bonus items are very expensive!

Speaking of plat, my choice to go with two-handed fighting is economically driven. On my server (Ghallanda) purchasing a decent set of weapons for a two-weapon fighter is an extremely expensive endeavor. Fancy rapiers, specifically, are usually a few million gold. I also don't have access to several million gold, so the idea of only having to buy one new weapon every two levels rather than two more is very appealing.

I did initially have UMD in place of Jump, but decided against it when I saw that I would only be able to raise it to 16.5 or so by level 20. Is that high enough to be very effective endgame?

Lastly - and this is just a minor detail really, but I'm not a boy.

Thanks again for your comments and suggestions.

Don't let the extremely high cost of rapiers on the AH be the deciding factor against 2 weapons. At level 14, paladins get access to the "holy sword" spell, which will allow you create 2 high-end weapons for a relatively small cost per play session. You will not be forced to buy expensive weapons on the AH, you can make your own! If you still want to go 2H, then do it, but don't decide solely for cost reasons.

As to the UMD, I think a majority of players would tell you that if you were only granted 1 skill point per level, you should put that 1 point into UMD. You will be able to get your UMD much higher than 16.5, somewhere into the mid 30s if you train it up every level. You will get bonuses to UMD as your charisma increases, and you will eventually get items that boost UMD as well. UMD isn't going to do much for you at early levels, but later will grant ability to raise dead with scrolls, and use items like shield wands, etc. Its a handy skill to have, and there really aren't many better alternatives for paladins to choose from on the skill list. With 10 int, you can take points in balance as well. Jump falls into that "it would sure be nice if I had more skill points for..." category. You can always use a potion, or get a Jump spell cast on you when you need extra Jump, or you could take some out of balance and put it into Jump if you prefer.

Check out Junts' phenominal guide if you haven't already:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=218542

And I apologize for the "he" assumption...

[excess]

I also don't have access to several million gold, so the idea of only having to buy one new weapon every two levels rather than two more is very appealing.

I know this probably won't convince you one way or the other, but, you really can manage a single set of weapons from lvl 4 to whichever level you grab Improved Crit and safely ignore the damage lost from missing out on the few extra points of damage you'd be losing from wielding a +1 keen of pure good over a +2, +3 or +4. Also consider that your to hit will be low enough that going twf immediately would probably not be the best idea. I've seen advice on waiting until as low as level 6 and as high as 12 before fully switching into the style you'll use at end game. Going THF even while lacking feats also has the added advantage that glancing blows, even without proper scaling from the feat, are a significant portion of mob hp at low levels, so you can effectively take down large groups faster - KotC's interaction with glancing blows also means THF is great for dealing with low level undead groups. Lastly, shield AC is effective enough at low level as to make you basically untouchable with some +3 barkskin and shield of faith pots and decent armor. Consider the combo when shortmanning, soloing, or simply wanting to ease the job of your healer.

All that to say that "going rapiers" may only mean one set of them and could realistically be put off until level 9-10 if you get IC at 9, by which time you should have gold and perhaps gotten lucky on the AH/broker with an affordable pair. Early on, a THF weapon might serve you better or using a shield and a single rapier could also work, saving you gold. Anecdotaly, UMD can sometimes grab you some deals here, for while untyped or RR: drow rapiers are in high demand, I found a very cheap keen of puregood low level req rapier because of a RR:WF on it - doesn't matter to me, as I'm /2 rogue splash so the UMD 20 requirement won't be an issue by the time I fully switch to TWF at 10.

Also, check the AH regularly, there should always be some good deals on there. My server doesn't suffer the inflation of older ones (on Cannith), but I've picked up both my +1 keen of pure good rapiers for under 3k pp each, which was both very cheap (as in affordable) and far under the average AH price for rapiers. I suppose once you get IC then finding a elemental burst or holy burst would be the really expensive proposition, but I don't feel guilty cruising 3 extra levels with my starter weapons to wait out Holy Sword and neither should you.

[Junts]

"good rapiers" are no barrier to a character with the ability to create +5 holy burst cold iron silver byeshk rapiers of permanent protection from evil for the mere cost of 125 platinum pieces.

Similarly, while a +6 ml 13 wisdom item might cost a little, one 15+ isn't, and while the numbers you see (50,000 gold!) look like a lot, they're not when a single trash weapon from an explorer zone chest sells for 15,000 gold.

Character wealth increases exponetntially on DDO, and it really takes off when you start running quests level 13+ (and therefore, getting ml 10 and better weapon end rewards). Getting a +6 wisdom item is going to be a concern for you for roughly 48 hours; it's not something to build your character around. I know it sounds like it's hard, but its really, really, really not. You'll get that much cash in your sleep by the time you need it.

[gencydefen]

Cool! If I understand that all correctly - and I did read your excellent guide, Junts

UMD + the use of Holy Sword later on, as well as exponential growth potential for cash flow later on means that I need to rethink my strategy quite a bit. Thank you for all the food for thought.

[Junts]

Here's random info for ya

Min level 6 weapon: base value 32,000 gold, sells for maybe 1/5th of that, right?

ml16 weapon has a base value of 162,000 gold. It still sells for the same percentage, though.

Even when its a +4 seeker +6 battleaxe of shatter +10.