Dual Weilding: Fighter 20 vs. Fighter/Ranger/? 12/6/X

[Kroll]

Hi guys,
Looking for a vet to help steer my build in the right direction.
So I'm a level 12 dual weilding fighter and close to hitting 13 but I have a bit of a dilemma.
From a dual-weilding optimization standpoint, I'm weighing the benefits of continuing down the fighter path as opposed to switching over to Ranger.

Here are the benefits I could think of if I keep going down fighter.
level 13 - none. 10 HP
level 14 - Feat. 10 HP
level 15 - Feat. 10 HP
level 16 - Feat. 10 HP
level 17 - none. 10 HP
level 18 - 2 Feats. 10 HP
level 19 - none. 10 HP
level 20 - Feat, capstone (+10% attack speed with all weapons), 10 HP

Here are the benefits if I go Ranger, at least for the next 6 levels
level 1 - Feat (Spring Attack)), Bow Strength, Favored Enemy, 8 HP
level 2 - Rapid Shot, 8 HP
level 3 - Feat (Dodge), DieHard, 8 HP
level 4 - None, 8 HP
level 5 - Favored Enemy, 8 HP
level 6 - Feat (Mobility), Tempest Enhancement (+10% attack speed with dual weild, +2 AC when dual weilding), 8 HP
...plus spellcasting ability.

So going Fighter would give me a 3 more feats and offer me more flexibility in those feats. Plus I get slightly more HP.

Going Ranger gives me the Tempest Enhancement which (for a dual weilder) is better than the Fighter capstone, I get 2 favored enemies, I get various boosts to my bow using ability (which is my secondary weapon) but I am restricted by which feats I can take - however two of these (Spring Attack and Dodge) I would take anyway.

The HP difference in those 6 levels (12 total) seems negligble.
I am leaning towards going Ranger the next 6 levels but I need some veteran advice.
What do you guys think?
Thanks.

[ShadowcatX]

This is greatly inaccurate.

First off, tempest requires dodge, mobility, and spring attack (in that order). Those are not granted feats, they're required.

Second, fighter only gives bonus feats at 14, 16, 18 (and Kenesai III) and 20 (capstone).

Note: If you do not already have dodge, you will have to exchange one of your current feats to pick up the line to get tempest.

[Ozmoth]

It kind of sounds like you made up your mind already which isn't a bad thing. Tempest mixes where all the rage for a reason. For me the selling point is the casting ability. Cure serious wands over pots rule in my book hands down. I might look at monk for the last two levels I believe evasion and air stance would be good and is the usual norm. Multiclassing is tricky be careful what you do. Is this your first toon? If so I would hold off and maybe roll another toon get the full view of the game then move this toon forward but I often play it safe when leveling as this is painful to redo for me.

[Demoyn]

Going Ranger gives me the Tempest Enhancement which (for a dual weilder) is better than the Fighter capstone

I can see where you'd think that, but 2 AC is useless unless you can get your total AC above 60 at end game. In reality the fighter capstone is better because if you ever have to switch weapon sets (A two-handed weapon for something with a large DR that you can't bypass while TWF, for instance) then you'll still get the 10%. It's a very small bonus, true, but it's still better than the AC.

I get 2 favored enemies

By staying fighter you'd get two more damage from weapon specialization enhancements (without even considering the other benefits of kensai III). Is the one extra damage to those two favored enemies worth the loss of two damage from everything else? I'd personally vote no.

I get various boosts to my bow using ability (which is my secondary weapon) but I am restricted by which feats I can take - however two of these (Spring Attack and Dodge) I would take anyway.

There's absolutely no reason to take these two feats if you're not a ranger. The trash mob fights at end game are generally easy to hit, and the harder to hit mobs generally stand still. Three feats is a large sacrifice for a 20% hit chance that will rarely make a difference.

The HP difference in those 6 levels (12 total) seems negligble.
I am leaning towards going Ranger the next 6 levels but I need some veteran advice.
What do you guys think?
Thanks.

The hit points are negligible, but I'd lean towards fighter just on the comments I made above. Again, though, that doesn't even count Kensai III (or more haste enhancements), which make staying pure fighter a no-brainer.

[Baahb3]

Both would be very good.

Dual wielding Kensai are very nice once they get their 3rd tier and improve their threat range by one, so 20 fighter is very viable.

The 12 Fighter/6 Ranger/2 Monk build is also very popular and impressive. Gives you a few low level spells like Rams might and longstrider as well as evasion and wisdom bonus to ac if you don't wear armor.

The biggest difference IMO is that the 12/6/2 option is a bit more gear/tome intensive of a build where the straight fighter 20 is less so.

[Kroll]

This is greatly inaccurate.

First off, tempest requires dodge, mobility, and spring attack (in that order). Those are not granted feats, they're required.

Second, fighter only gives bonus feats at 14, 16, 18 (and Kenesai III) and 20 (capstone).

Note: If you do not already have dodge, you will have to exchange one of your current feats to pick up the line to get tempest.

The feats required for Tempest are not implied to be granted. I realize I need to use my recieved feats on those abilities (which is why I put them in parenthesis - sorry I figured that was clear).
As far as the order of Ranger feats needed, thanks for the correction there.
Tempest is an enhancement so I should have 3 available feats by the time I hit level 6 ranger right? Or did I miscalculate somewhere?

[Kroll]

I can see where you'd think that, but 2 AC is useless unless you can get your total AC above 60 at end game. In reality the fighter capstone is better because if you ever have to switch weapon sets (A two-handed weapon for something with a large DR that you can't bypass while TWF, for instance) then you'll still get the 10%. It's a very small bonus, true, but it's still better than the AC.



By staying fighter you'd get two more damage from weapon specialization enhancements (without even considering the other benefits of kensai III). Is the one extra damage to those two favored enemies worth the loss of two damage from everything else? I'd personally vote no.




There's absolutely no reason to take these two feats if you're not a ranger. The trash mob fights at end game are generally easy to hit, and the harder to hit mobs generally stand still. Three feats is a large sacrifice for a 20% hit chance that will rarely make a difference.



The hit points are negligible, but I'd lean towards fighter just on the comments I made above. Again, though, that doesn't even count Kensai III (or more haste enhancements), which make staying pure fighter a no-brainer.

Interesting post and great feedback.
This actually has me leaning towards going full fighter now.
I'm definitely going Kensei and taking it all the way would be the key.

[shawnystyle7]

Interesting post and great feedback.
This actually has me leaning towards going full fighter now.
I'm definitely going Kensei and taking it all the way would be the key.

I dont see how a 12/6/2 could possibly out-dps a capped kensaiIII twf kopesh build. Maybe on a favored enemy that is crit immune. But ya, you wont be able to solo as well.

[Sir_Chonas]

Kensai II, Tempest I, monk 2 (the monster, the half-monster). or 12/6/rogue 2 (the shredder).

Rangers get dex bonuses and the ability to use heal wands, and favored enemies which you do more damage to and take less damage from. Monks give you sick saves and ac bonuses plus evasion (so do rogues) at level 2. Rogues give sneak attack damage bonuses.

This is the build I play, and I routinely have more kills than anyone else in my group (was in gianthold tor today with 3 lvl 20s and I had the highest kill count using only paralyzers/wounders). People say kill count doesn't matter, but if you're not sweeping in to get last hits and are doling out nearly equitable damage to people 4 and 5 levels above you it is a pretty good measure that your build is at least not terrible. Plus I was able to solo the shadow guard with nothing but intuition, way too much time, and 2 cure serious wands on hard a few levels below the quest.

Play the half-monster (http://community.codemasters.com/for...&postcount=280) you'll be happy with how long you survive and how much damage you do.

Play the monster (http://community.codemasters.com/for...188)you'll be extremely happy with the complements you receive on your build (nice kills).

Play the shredder (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...light=shredder) or egomaniac (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=192698) and put out ridiculous damage numbers (but be super vulnerable).

I'll edit with links when I find them.

support for the build http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2473182 and http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906 for TWF DPS info

[Riggs]

If your planning on going 12/6/2 say - it is a lot better skill wise to start out level 1 as ranger/monk....but short of rerolling its still a good choice.

Kensai 3 gives a bit of extra damage, but favored enemy, rams might, is better damage. Monk has 2 bonus feats vs 1 bonus feat, and evasion which is huge. The one and only advantage of kensai 3 is the +1 crit range, which is a pretty big bonus., but its a big bonus on lower base damage.
Most endgame monsters are outsiders so you can count on the +5 damage from fe a lot, and +3 from rams, is 8 more damage base, and thats 24 on crits vs more crits for lower damage, vs the +2 damage from kensai.

I favor the high ac and evasion route given the massive amounts of aoe damage Turbine has in high level content, but either way is mostly fine, and is going to be a good build (assuming there isnt some hidden suck factor from bad planning).

[SouCarioca]

For me the selling point is the casting ability. Cure serious wands over pots rule in my book hands down.

The first phrase makes sense to me, but not the second. If you have access to pots and wands, then the single best self-healing is to use both. Pot, then wand, then pot, until done. WHile the pot is cooling off, the wand is useable and vice versa. You self-heal twice as fast by using both.