Elf Ranger18/Monk 2 (TWF/Tempest 3)...viable?

[Failedlegend]

Hey I'm trying to make an build similar to Yarhovah sans the Rogue lvl and instead adding a 2nd Monk lvl as well as an Elf using Longswords instead of a Human using Khopesh that can pull off High DPS,Half-way decent AC and self/off-healing for a little extra survivability (Plus takes a little heat off the healer..if there is one).

Note: I have unlocked Head-start and 32pt. So this char will be starting at Lvl 4.

Here's the raw stats...hopefully this is :

32 pt. Elf Ranger

Str  16+4 (Lvl Boosts) +6 (Item) = 26
Dex 17+2 (Elf Dex) +2(Ranger Dex) +1(Lvl Boost) +6(item)= 28
Con 12+6(item) = 18
Int    8
Wis  15+1 (Monk Wis) +6(item) = 22
Cha  8


Possible Feats:

Favored Enemies: Undead, Evil Outsider, Constructs, Abberations
Monk Bonus Feats: Dodge, Mobility
Granted: Evasion,TWF, ITWF ,GTWF,Diehard,Hide in Plain Sight and a bunch of Ranged feats
Chosen: Toughness,Spring Attack,OTWF, Improved Critical:Slashing, Power Attack,Mental Toughness


Skills:

Concentration,Jump,Spot,Balance,UMD


Enhancements:

Ranger Dex (1,2),Elf Dex Line,Favored Damage Line,Tempest Line, Monk Wis 1
Ranger Devotion Line,Ranger Toughness Line and the rest I'll pick as I go

That's pretty much what I've got planned I just need some help with Feat/Lvl order (Ranger 1,Monk 2,Ranger X?) and some feedback on some of my choices would be nice too. Also If someone could calculate my AC that would be awesome (wanna compare to other ranger builds and my Mithral Full Plate THF Pally) Lastly is Deflect Arrows (Monk Feat) useful?...cause I'm one feat short...would something else be better?

Note: I've already spent hours searching through the forums and can't find a similar build...if you know of one please link it

[MichaelBerea]

Monk Bonus Feats: Dodge, Mobility
Feats Chosen: Toughness,Spring Attack,OTWF, Improved Critical:Slashing, Power Attack,Mental Toughness
Hey I'm trying to make an build similar to Yarhovah sans the Rogue lvl and instead adding a 2nd Monk lvl as well as an Elf using Longswords instead of a Human using Khopesh that can pull off High DPS,Half-way decent AC and self/off-healing for a little extra survivability (Plus takes a little heat off the healer..if there is one). Lastly is Deflect Arrows (Monk Feat) useful?...cause I'm one feat short...would something else be better

I have also been searching for a no-rogue (no-tome) version of the Exploiter to have fun with. I enjoyed reading your build and found it useful.

Regarding feats ... Deflect Arrows is pretty weak in DDO. I think Maximize with your extra feat would work well (see discussion on Yarhovah thread). It makes a big difference in the usefulness of your healing spells.

[Hadrian]

The reason that you have a hard time finding a well designed 18/2 ranger is because the rogue level offers a lot.

Can I ask what the reason is for not wanting to take a rogue level?

That single rogue level unlocks full ranks of UMD, Disable Device, and Open Lock. You may not choose to use all of these, but especially the UMD adds a lot to your character's abilities.

You get d6+3 sneak attack damage.

You get a 15% melee speed boost.

[jmonty]

The reason that you have a hard time finding a well designed 18/2 ranger is because the rogue level offers a lot.

Can I ask what the reason is for not wanting to take a rogue level?

That single rogue level unlocks full ranks of UMD, Disable Device, and Open Lock. You may not choose to use all of these, but especially the UMD adds a lot to your character's abilities.

You get d6+3 sneak attack damage.

You get a 15% melee speed boost.

sounds like that's the way to go

[Failedlegend]

Let compare the two options:

Rogue1/Monk1
1 Free Feat (One less than 2 Monk)
Access to Trapskills/slightly Higher UMD (I have better things to spend my skill points on)
Weak sneak attack (Which alot of monsters happen to be immune to)
15% speed boost for limited time


Monk 2
2 Free Feats
Meditation
Evasion (at 2 instead of 11)
Wis+1
Choice of Animal Path
Void Strike: Adds 1d4 Force Dmg to your unarmed strikes

IMHO an extra stat point,extra feat,evasion and Animal path trumps SA,Speed boost and trapskills

[Hadrian]

You're kind of downplaying the use of sneak attack and UMD, and trying to inflate the importance of some things on the monk side. Some of these things require you to use unarmed, which is not that likely on a tempest build.

With an animal path, you'll probably find +5 hp and +1 concentration to be the best option. It's not that impressive, and it's no more efficient than buying racial/class toughness feats.

1d4 force damage AND the loss of all tempest 3 bonuses on unarmed strikes does not seem worth it. You have to have two weapons equipped. Handwraps do not give you the tempest bonus.

Meditation? That doesn't really benefit you at all.

Having evasion early is nice, but once you're level 11 and have evasion, having it from another source doesn't matter at all. It's not really a long-term build decision, because the benefit disappears early on and only the downside is left.


Edit: As far as "having better things to spend skill points on" for UMD, it seems like your build already includes UMD. The trick is to take the rogue level later on, at the point where you can feed all of that level's skill points into UMD to cap it out. This way, you're not wasting extra points on UMD, but simply using them more efficiently by getting the full benefit of 1 point to 1 skill increase.

I know that people always advise you to take rogue first, but that is generally intended for a build that plans to take a wide range of skills. In your case, you have several skills that you've planned to take and are content with them. Here, it's a mistake to take rogue first and spread out all of those points into skills that you may not even want. It's far better to spend them more efficiently into a skill that is cross-class for ranger or monk, but not for rogue.

[Failedlegend]

You're kind of downplaying the use of sneak attack and UMD

I was downplaying sneak-attack...UMD is awesome...but sneak attack not so much (which is only 1D6 which isn't much...akin to a low lvl elemental effect) there's so many enemies in the game that are immune to SA that my rogue be game pretty much useless as a DPS toon(I wish it wasn't sneak attack+using a weapon their weak to+TWF is awesome when it works).

With an animal path, you'll probably find +5 hp and +1 concentration to be the best option. It's not that impressive, and it's no more efficient than buying racial/class toughness feats.

Either that or Way of the Clever Monkey which gives you bonus saves against traps + energy resistance (also +1 to haggle but thats not applicable in this build) ...thats six rogue enhancements Rogue Trap Lore 1 x 5 and Improved Trap sense for 1 AP (would cost a rogue 6 AP)...I'd call that pretty good

1d4 force damage AND the loss of all tempest 3 bonuses on unarmed strikes does not seem worth it. You have to have two weapons equipped. Handwraps do not give you the tempest bonus.

I was more referring to when you have to ditch your weapons to protect them ie.Rust Monsters...but yes it is only marginally useful (Note: While fists don't benefit from your tempest line they do benefit from your Str and the TWF line)

Meditation? That doesn't really benefit you at all.

This I didn't really mention much about because it is only a minor bonus (for use with Lesser Monk Stances/Abilities) but I wasn't gonna disclude it because it is something you get with monk 2 that you don't get with monk/rogue 1.

Having evasion early is nice, but once you're level 11 and have evasion, having it from another source doesn't matter at all. It's not really a long-term build decision, because the benefit disappears early on and only the downside is left.

Actually I find this VERY useful sure it essentially disappears at lvl 11 but it really helps you against enemy spellcasters and it helps you while your still learning the game and/or just don't know a dungeon also . Simply put Evasion 2-20 > Evasion 11-20. So yes its a bonus

As far as "having better things to spend skill points on" for UMD, it seems like your build already includes UMD. The trick is to take the rogue level later on, at the point where you can feed all of that level's skill points into UMD to cap it out. This way, you're not wasting extra points on UMD, but simply using them more efficiently by getting the full benefit of 1 point to 1 skill increase.

I was mostly referring to trapskills (let the rogue do the trapskills hes probably better at it anyway) and even without the rogue level I only lose a few points in UMD so its really not worth it.

Also now that I think of it Rogue have a D6 Hit Die & Monk Have a D8 so I'd gain more HP with 2 monk thank with 1monk/1rogue

Overall the only Bonuses I care about for the rogue Level is the higher UMD and the 15% speed boost but the extra feat,the evasion at lvl 2,wis+1 and the bonus of Monkey animal path far exceeds that and the unarmed damage for slimes,etc. is nice too.

Lastly I don't really want to argue about this I just need help making my Ranger18/Monk2.

[Hadrian]

Well, ok. If your purpose for building this way is so that you have advantages against slimes without having to use everbright weapons, you've got me there. Advantage 18/2.

But the reasons listed are why you're having a hard time finding any example builds. If you know exactly what you want and aren't willing to discuss better options, then you don't need advice. Just make what it is that you want.

[Nyvn]

Actually 1 Rogue unlocks the first tier of sneak attack damage. So for 1 AP you get 1d6+3 sneak attack damage. Or 4-9 damage when getting sneak attacks. Which you get at least partial on most boss mobs. And on the vast majority of trash mobs.

There are +/- to either a 1/1 or a 2. 1/1 Fighter/Monk is another useful variation.

[Failedlegend]

First before responding to Hadrian's post....thanks Nyvn for mentioning that sneak attack is 1d6+3 (4-9) if you take the enhancement I'll update that.

Well, ok. If your purpose for building this way is so that you have advantages against slimes without having to use everbright weapons, you've got me there. Advantage 18/2.

But the reasons listed are why you're having a hard time finding any example builds. If you know exactly what you want and aren't willing to discuss better options, then you don't need advice. Just make what it is that you want.

I'm sorry your the one being shortsighted...I even clarified that yes the unarmed damage was very minor and THAT's what you comment on what about my valid points of The Monkey Animal Path,Wis+1,evasion at lvl 2 and 2 bonus feats instead of one. Here I'll quote my self since you obviously TL;DR my post

I was more referring to when you have to ditch your weapons to protect them ie.Rust Monsters...BUT YES IT IS ONLY MARGINALLY USEFUL

Overall the... (snip) ...the unarmed damage for slimes,etc. IS NICE too.

I even capitalized the important stuff for you...now here is everything you ignored nicely condensed for you.

Rogue 1/Monk 1
Higher UMD
15% temporary attack speed boost
1d6 Sneak attack damage (or 1d6+3 w/ enhancement)

Monk 2
1 More bonus feat (2 in total)
Evasion at lvl 2-4 (depending on when monk lvls are taken...likely lvl 3 for me) instead off 11
Wis+1
Way of the Clever Monkey (Bonus Saves against traps and + 2 Resist to all elements for 1 AP)

Higher HP (D8 instead of D6)


Both have +/-'s like Nyvn said but for me who while playing a rogue it felt like SA was a joke the devs played on us saying sure you can have it but 9/10 mobs will be immune to it. So it doesn't interest me personally...the 15% speed boost is interesting (but limited/temporary) especially if it stacks with tempests bonuses and the higher UMD is compelling but that alone I think is overshadowed by the benefits of 2 monk.

Lastly when I said I don't want to argue about this I didn't mean I didn't want ANY input I meant I didn't want useless bickering derailing the thread and instead actually get some help.

That's pretty much what I've got planned I just need some help with Feat/Lvl order (Ranger 1,Monk 2,Ranger X?) and some feedback on some of my choices (ie feats,skills)

Now please either start being constructive about your criticism and stop picking out a single comment while ignoring all the good points or butt out.

[FauxSho]

Actually 1 Rogue unlocks the first tier of sneak attack damage. So for 1 AP you get 1d6+3 sneak attack damage. Or 4-9 damage when getting sneak attacks. Which you get at least partial on most boss mobs. And on the vast majority of trash mobs.

There are +/- to either a 1/1 or a 2. 1/1 Fighter/Monk is another useful variation.

I'm trying a Dwarf 18Rng/1Fig/1Mnk variant now.

UMD and trap skills are the main draw of a single Rog level to me. Since the primary thing I would be using UMD for on a build is self-healing, UMD is less important to me on a squishie Ranger build with decent access to divine wands. Sneak attack is attractive also, but since my playstyle must unfortunately be primarily solo this doesn't mesh well for me.
Since I also have two other builds I'm working on with trap skills, I chose to go the Fighter route particularly for the tactics and toughness enhancements while keeping the extra feat that would be lost if I were to choose 1Rog over 1Fig or a 2nd level of Mnk.

To do 18Rng/2Mnk, I would think you'd be best served with 6Rng,2Mnk,restRng to get Tempest ASAP, but that's just a first thought.

As far as feat choices, I think you might be able to get more use out of something other than Mental Toughness, but that's up to personal preference. It also looks like you only have 6 selected feats unless I missed one, so you can take one more.

[Failedlegend]

I'm trying a Dwarf 18Rng/1Fig/1Mnk variant now.
To do 18Rng/2Mnk, I would think you'd be best served with 6Rng,2Mnk,restRng to get Tempest ASAP, but that's just a first thought.

Hmmmm...that seems reasonable enough but I don't think I can get the feat requirements in by lvl 6 without the monk levels

As far as feat choices, I think you might be able to get more use out of something other than Mental Toughness, but that's up to personal preference. It also looks like you only have 6 selected feats unless I missed one, so you can take one more.

Think I'm gonna drop Mental toughness in favor of...empowered healing and for the feat I missed I'm thinking Power Critical.

[FauxSho]

Hmmmm...that seems reasonable enough but I don't think I can get the feat requirements in by lvl 6 without the monk levels

Sure you can, pure rangers do it all the time.
Here's an example of how it could be done up to lvl6 (not including stat advance or skills):

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 6 Lawful Good Elf Male
(6 Ranger) 
Hit Points: 74
Spell Points: 55 
BAB: 6\6\11
Fortitude: 6
Reflex: 9
Will: 4

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 6)
Strength             16                    16
Dexterity            17                    19
Constitution         12                    12
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom               15                    15
Charisma              8                     8


[/COLOR]
Level 1 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge


Level 2 (Ranger)


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility


Level 4 (Ranger)


Level 5 (Ranger)


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense I
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I
Enhancement: Ranger Devotion II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I

Think I'm gonna drop Mental toughness in favor of...empowered healing and for the feat I missed I'm thinking Power Critical.

I'd advise against Power Critical. It sounds great, but it only helps you get criticals on things you can't normally hit very well... which you probably won't have a problem with.

[Failedlegend]

Sure you can, pure rangers do it all the time.

Hmmm...hows this than

[B]

32 pt. Elf Ranger Monk

Str  16+4 (Lvl Boosts) +6 (Item) = 26
Dex 17+2 (Elf Dex) +2(Ranger Dex) +1(Lvl Boost) +6(item)= 28
Con 12+6(item) = 18
Int    8
Wis  15+1 (Monk Wis) +6(item) = 22
Cha  8


Possible Feats:

Favored Enemies: Undead, Evil Outsider, Constructs, Abberations
Monk Bonus Feats: Toughness,Power Attack
Granted: Evasion,TWF, ITWF ,GTWF,Diehard,Hide in Plain Sight and a bunch of Ranged feats
Chosen: Spring Attack, OTWF, Improved Critical:Slashing, Mental Toughness,Dodge, Mobility, ????


Skills:

Concentration,Jump,Spot,Balance,UMD


Enhancements:

Ranger Dex (1,2),Elf Dex Line,Favored Damage Line,Tempest Line, Monk Wis 1
Ranger Devotion Line,Ranger Toughness Line and the rest I'll pick as I go

Ranger 1-6/Monk 7,8/9-20 Ranger

I'd advise against Power Critical. It sounds great, but it only helps you get criticals on things you can't normally hit very well... which you probably won't have a problem with.

Hmmm...fair enough...what would you suggest?

[FauxSho]

Looks pretty good. Ranger 6, Monk 7-8, Ranger 9-20 allows you to get Tempest I as soon as possible and also allows you to take IC:Slashing at lvl 9.

As far as that 7th feat, you wouldn't be able to take Power Critical anyway without a Weapon Focus. But anyway the following all seem more useful as a final feat than Power Critical to me:

Toughness for more HP
Weapon Focus for better to-hit (probably not needed at that point, maybe for Epic content)
Improved Mental Toughness for even more SP
Empower Healing for better heals
Extend for longer Barkskin and FoM
Quick Draw if you find yourself switching out weapon sets/equipment often
Two Weapon Defense if you end up going for high AC and have good gear
Stunning Blow (if it would land at that point... not sure as I don't have experience with it at high levels... might not be worth it without tactics enhancements to back it up)

You can always decide once you level to that point (the lvl 12, 15, and 18 feats) and decide which would suit your playstyle best. I usually plan my characters to death and then modify them slightly once I'm actually leveling them (mostly Enhancement-wise, though).

[Hadrian]

I'm sorry your the one being shortsighted...I even clarified that yes the unarmed damage was very minor and THAT's what you comment on what about my valid points of The Monkey Animal Path,Wis+1,evasion at lvl 2 and 2 bonus feats instead of one.

I believe you individually quoted my responses to those already, so I had assumed you had read them.

Your reasons for discounting my points aren't very pratical in terms of making the build functional in the game. I was assuming that you lack experience with the build and this is why you made the post. I thought that I would offer what I had learned from my own experiences with the build, but was met with counterpoints that did not really match what I had concluded from actually trying it.

I am not trying to push the build on you, but I am trying to make you understand what it is that I am trying to get across to you because the responses I am getting are making me think that I have not done so yet.

Sometimes you just need to make your own mistakes, I guess. Good luck with your build and I hope that it works out for you. It's really hard to go wrong with any 18 ranger + splash, and you can simply reincarnate to adjust to what your experiences show you later on.

[Failedlegend]

Looks pretty good. Ranger 6, Monk 7-8, Ranger 9-20 allows you to get Tempest I as soon as possible and also allows you to take IC:Slashing at lvl 9.

As far as that 7th feat, you wouldn't be able to take Power Critical anyway without a Weapon Focus. But anyway the following all seem more useful as a final feat than Power Critical to me:

Toughness for more HP
Weapon Focus for better to-hit (probably not needed at that point, maybe for Epic content)
Improved Mental Toughness for even more SP
Empower Healing for better heals
Extend for longer Barkskin and FoM
Quick Draw if you find yourself switching out weapon sets/equipment often
Two Weapon Defense if you end up going for high AC and have good gear
Stunning Blow (if it would land at that point... not sure as I don't have experience with it at high levels... might not be worth it without tactics enhancements to back it up)

You can always decide once you level to that point (the lvl 12, 15, and 18 feats) and decide which would suit your playstyle best. I usually plan my characters to death and then modify them slightly once I'm actually leveling them (mostly Enhancement-wise, though).

I'll probably take either Extend or Empowered healing...I guess I'll just play that by ear and when I get to the point where I want to take one of them hopefully I'll know what needs more of a boost.

Other than that do you think this build can survive or even thrive in end-game (don't care too much right now but I know when I get there I will :P) also will it be a good contribute 1-20

I am not trying to push the build on you, but I am trying to make you understand what it is that I am trying to get across to you because the responses I am getting are making me think that I have not done so yet.

I don't want a build everyone else uses (minor) and I don't want another trap-smith character (major) so I wanted to make one similar without the rogue...but you toting how awesome the exploiter is isn't helping. I was open to any Multi-class options except copying the exploiter. Ie. after reading Fauxsho's first comment I've been looking into the benefits of 18/1/1 Ranger/Fighter/Monk. Also I think I might see what other would fit Ranger/Monk/? 18/1/1 but I'll probably stick with 18/2 Ranger/Monk because it seems solid and I just want to get to the playing part

Ok here's what one lvl (or one MORE) of various classes will get me (only listing things IO find useful...even a little):

Barbarian: Extra HP (D12), Power attack enhancement 1(+1 dam -1 attack),10% Movement speed Increase,Basic Rage,Will Save+1 while raging (enhancement)

Wizard: Extra Feat (Restricted),+15 MP (Elf enhancement req: Wiz lvl 1)

Fighter: Extra HP (D10), Extra Feat (Restricted),Fighter Crit Accuracy (+2 to confirm crit),15% melee speed boost

Ranger 19: extra 2,3,4 spells slots AKA nothing

Rogue: Max UMD,Sneak attack 1d6+3,15% melee speed boost

Sorcerer: uh....+30 SP and prob a bigger SP increase at lvl up AKA nothing really

Monk 2: Extra Feat (Restricted) Evasion, Wis+1, Way of the Clever Monkey

So the Most viable choices for the leftover level seem to be Monk 2 ,Barbarian 1 or Rogue 1 and maybe fighter 1.

[Hadrian]

You seem to be so hung up on looking down on the exploiter for being common that you haven't really grasped a single word that I have typed.

I simply made a comparison of options and tried to give you some idea of why people make the choices. Instead of taking the advice for what it was, you decided to argue that monk 2 was superior. I don't really see the point in reacting that way.

You don't have to take trap skills or do what everyone else is doing, but wasn't the point of the thread to gain an understanding of your options? So why argue about them?

Edit: In your list in the previous post you left out the 15% melee speed boost for fighter and rogue.

You're talking 18 ranger/1 monk/1 X. No matter what you pick it's going to be viable/survivable in the end-game. Even if you stay level 19, you'll do fine. The idea of the second splash is just to get a few extra bonuses out of choosing another class that outweighs what monk 2 gives you. It does not make or break the build.

[Failedlegend]

You seem to be so hung up on looking down on the exploiter for being common that you haven't really grasped a single word that I have typed.

I'm not looking down on it I just don't want to make yet another char with rogue in it...I want to explore what other classes can offer..also when I was playing my rogue I hated it when someone has really close or superior skills because they splashed a lvl of two of rogue and are using their lvl 20 w/e to supply it with stupid good gear. Sure rogues have alot of roles but their thief-like abilities are what makes them unique. So I don't want to do that to others. The UMD is VERY VERY VERY tempting but the rest of the bonuses don't really appeal to me and for the 15% speed boost (can anyone confirm this stacks with the tempest speed boost) I'd probably be better off with Fighter.

Edit: In your list in the previous post you left out the 15% melee speed boost for fighter and rogue.

Fixed thanks for the catch

[spifflove]

Let compare the two options:

Rogue1/Monk1
1 Free Feat (One less than 2 Monk)
Access to Trapskills/slightly Higher UMD (I have better things to spend my skill points on)
Weak sneak attack (Which alot of monsters happen to be immune to)
15% speed boost for limited time

You forgot intimidate.

Monk 2
2 Free Feats
Meditation
Evasion (at 2 instead of 11)
Wis+1
Choice of Animal Path
Void Strike: Adds 1d4 Force Dmg to your unarmed strikes

IMHO an extra stat point,extra feat,evasion and Animal path trumps SA,Speed boost and trapskills

one free feat vs having one as a level one monk
meditation
wis plus one
plus 1 bab but not the magic 20.
animal path worthless as you get energy resist anyway
void = nothing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QGkOGZubQ