Underwater Action Items

[GreenGurgler]

The effect of UA is so far superior to the waterbreathing trinket that it is nearly a must have on all my characters. Not sure why the nerf but it really stinks. It has not stopped me from rolling non-warforged characters but that is only because I have a slew of names set aside based on PnP days and they simply are not warforged characters.

Every "new" character, meaning one made without a reserved name and PnP background, is warforged. The reason is simply based on the lack of UA items. I would rather take an inferior race for the class I am building then do without the UA ability.

Clickies and potions simply are not reliable enough to ensure that I can swim without danger. IMO it was one of several poorer choices made by the developers.

It makes running HIPS worth it just to get to the trap area and hope for the best.

Really?

There are not that many instances in the entire game where prolonged swimming is required. Most of the swims in the game can easily be done w/out UAW (swimming or water breathing). So you are willing to gimp a few classes JUST FOR A HANDFUL of times where it is needed???

Also, "clickies and potions simply are not reliable enough", what does this even mean? They work 100% of the time when you click on them or drink them and last until they are either removed or the timer runs out (based on whether it is a clicky or perm affect). This just makes no sense. That statement implies that at the least opportune time, your water breathing magically disappears??? Or the timer cuts short? Never had this happen before.

Wow, talk about over reaction and intentional gimping.

[Therigar]

Really?

There are not that many instances in the entire game where prolonged swimming is required. Most of the swims in the game can easily be done w/out UAW (swimming or water breathing). So you are willing to gimp a few classes JUST FOR A HANDFUL of times where it is needed???

Also, "clickies and potions simply are not reliable enough", what does this even mean? They work 100% of the time when you click on them or drink them and last until they are either removed or the timer runs out (based on whether it is a clicky or perm affect). This just makes no sense. That statement implies that at the least opportune time, your water breathing magically disappears??? Or the timer cuts short? Never had this happen before.

Wow, talk about over reaction and intentional gimping.

I suppose what you say is true assuming that you know exactly where you are going and how to get there. And, maybe I was spoiled by the relatively high drop rate of the unrestricted UA items previously.

However, in my particular case I really hate this particular change. So, yes, in my particular case I am willing to play a less than the best character just for the ability to swim underwater.

I don't think that choosing warforged gimps any character, regardless of class. I understand that some people think that every character has to be optimized and that this includes not only race but class, feat selection, enhancements, equipment and every other aspect of character design and development. And, this translates into their imposing the word "gimp" on any and every character that fails to live up to those preconceived notions.

Now, others may have different points of view, and obviously some do. That is their perogative. I am not advocating that others follow me in this. I am only stating the effect that the nerf had on my choices.

[Crann]

I had a situation happen to me last week that I'd like to share, in regards to water breathing. On my Ranger, I'm still running with the starter ring. I know its a pain, but its really worked for when I've needed it, and I'm just now getting to some of the content that requires more than just that ring. Did my first Tempest Spine run, which I read alittle about first, and knew the ring wasn't going to cut it alone. I went and got the House P buff, and thought I was good. Progressed though the quest, and got to the underwater part. One of the casters threw a spell before we dove, and again I thought I was good, until I saw the counter at 15 secs. I was right next to the caster when he buffed, like I always try to be, which confused me. Will the House P buff always over-ride any other buff cast on you, or was this a glitch. I swam back and used my ring....but got separated, and of course lost during the swim. Of course there were helpful folks around that retrieved me and showed me the way....but I hate being a burden. There was a subsequent ordeal involving a first try at one of the Shadow tombs in Necro, and now I'm in an all out hunt for a UWA item, and have a stack of potions for the meantime. Has anyone else had a simular incident with House P buffs running out at inopportune times?

[Therigar]

IMO creating a situation where you need House P buffs or potions is simply a way to separate you from your plat. It is a mean-spirited and deliberate response to the monty haul dungeon designs.

The reason I feel this way is exactly the situation described above. There is no need for dungeon designers to create these types of situations and then, after the fact, to take away the resources to run the quests.

The necro quest is particularly bad and routinely avoided even when UA items dropped like candy.

[Mysterium]

I enjoy the underwater quest in Necropolis. It's something a little different than the same old hack n slash. If you haven't found a UA item by the point you are running those quests, you should be able to get the Bubble Belt from Cult of the Six. If you would rather not put the time into that, you can just buy potions. If you can't afford potions, you can just take a wizard. If you don't want to bother with any of the above, you can roll a WF, as Therigar has done. One of the things I love about DDO is that there are a lot of creative ways to get through a lot of creative content.

I suppose we could just remove water from the game. While we're at it, we could get rid of locks and traps. Might as well take out the puzzles as well. We could just make every quest a straight forward twitch hack n slash dependent on cookie cutter build optimization and a linear gear grind. Such a game would require very little thought and would thus achieve immense popularity. We could call it something like "Land of Dungeoncraft." What do you think?

On the point of potions and house buffs, these are money sinks. They are necessary for the stabilization of a game economy because such an economy is not limited by finite available resources and is therefore subject to limitless inflation. That inflation stacks up quickly to prevent any new players on the server from participating in any kind of player driven commerce whatsoever. Implementing money sinks that are proportional to the creation of new resources, something that can generally be estimated in proportion to play time and average character level, effectively limits this kind of inflation. For this reason, money sinks tend to be greater and more frequent at higher levels.

[Therigar]

On the point of potions and house buffs, these are money sinks. They are necessary for the stabilization of a game economy because such an economy is not limited by finite available resources and is therefore subject to limitless inflation. That inflation stacks up quickly to prevent any new players on the server from participating in any kind of player driven commerce whatsoever. Implementing money sinks that are proportional to the creation of new resources, something that can generally be estimated in proportion to play time and average character level, effectively limits this kind of inflation. For this reason, money sinks tend to be greater and more frequent at higher levels.

Over the last many years I've participated in a few D&D campaigns. Almost none of them gave any attention to the economy and almost all of them ended with the player characters sitting on vast amounts of wealth. In perspective it meant that, were the PCs real people, nobody would every do more than the first few adventures because they would have earned enough to be set for generations to come.

But, D&D is a game. The real life players are not playing in order to create L5 characters who earn a fortune and retire*. The players are playing for the enjoyment of the game with little or no regard to the accumulated wealth.

I notice that DDO has a cycle of day and night and it appears to run multiple times in any 24 hour period. This means there is an in-game clock and that means it is possible to have an in-game calendar. Everyday living takes resources -- plat. And just like real life requires food, shelter and clothing the in-game world should require these as well. Just as the place you live collects taxes so too should the Coin Lords collect their share from the PCs.

You manage an over abundance of wealth by creating an economy that is realistic and consistent with the fantasy world itself. You do not manage an over abundance of wealth by altering the game to force people to play certain quests or make specific purchases. You don't line your own corporate pocket by removing UA items and then charging for the only race that does not need them.

I understand the need for Turbine to make money. And, I've supported them with more purchases than I ever planned to make thru the Turbine Store because some of the items are too attractive to bypass. I don't mind supporting them because DDO is a game that I greatly enjoy.

But, most of the time I just feel disgust at the decision makers and the changes that they bring to the game. Even moreso when those changes come without notice and without explanation and without soliciting feedback from the community. There was nothing inherently game imbalancing with UA items. There was no game-driven need for the change. And, while there are many excuses and potential solutions none of them should have been necessary because it is a problem that did not exist and that did not need to exist.

By creating an unnecessary issue it only increases my disdain for the Piaz's and developers. I'm sure they are fine people in real life. But as managers of DDO they make me wonder -- all of the time.

Edit: *Note that Tolkien's Hobbit features just that -- Bilbo finds a fortune and it finances him and Frodo for the rest of their lives. And, on his first quest.

[GreenGurgler]

I suppose what you say is true assuming that you know exactly where you are going and how to get there. And, maybe I was spoiled by the relatively high drop rate of the unrestricted UA items previously.

However, in my particular case I really hate this particular change. So, yes, in my particular case I am willing to play a less than the best character just for the ability to swim underwater.

I don't think that choosing warforged gimps any character, regardless of class. I understand that some people think that every character has to be optimized and that this includes not only race but class, feat selection, enhancements, equipment and every other aspect of character design and development. And, this translates into their imposing the word "gimp" on any and every character that fails to live up to those preconceived notions.

Now, others may have different points of view, and obviously some do. That is their perogative. I am not advocating that others follow me in this. I am only stating the effect that the nerf had on my choices.

Fair enough, I cant argue with that.

From my perspective it has not been an issue because of that original ring (and trinket) I referred to but I can see how others mileage may vary. Sometimes its hard to remember way back before we had everything and how things were when we didn't have access to everything we needed.

Lastly, I used the term gimp in a general sense (not optimal) based on your mention that you would take WF even if they were not optimal for that class just for the water breathing. Its not something I would do, but its totally your call (I am dwarf-centric, I play dwarfs whenever I can because I like the stinky little bastages so I can understand that to a degree).

[donfilibuster]

Well, the average adventurer is supposed to be stocking on potions and regular items to use on their quests.
All the permanent buffs on items like proof vs. poison, blindness ward, deathward, feather fall and underwater action are indeed powerful and valuable treasures.
In PnP a permanent magic item is top loot and rare enough that the only way to gain is to craft it on purpose and this typically involves a whole side quest.

[Therigar]

Well, the average adventurer is supposed to be stocking on potions and regular items to use on their quests.
All the permanent buffs on items like proof vs. poison, blindness ward, deathward, feather fall and underwater action are indeed powerful and valuable treasures.
In PnP a permanent magic item is top loot and rare enough that the only way to gain is to craft it on purpose and this typically involves a whole side quest.

To be honest, had this been DDO's implimentation I would have been fine with it. I don't really know the Eberron game setting as I stopped playing PnP well before WotC got the rights to D&D. But, IIRC magic is supposed to be very commonplace and convenience items relatively easy to acquire. So simple protective items like rings or necklaces of underwater action would seem commonplace as a preventative against accidental drownings. Same for proof against poison items and a whole host of things that would have commonplace, everyday application.

Personally, the high level of magic in the game makes things like this trivial. I can't get an underwater action item but I can find all sorts of weapons and armor. I remember when vorpal was a myth and finding one a once in a lifetime achievement. In DDO if you don't have one by L16 you're a gimp.

With the huge amount of magic in the game (and justified by the game setting in Eberron) not having something as simple and useful as UA is simply wrong. It isn't a game environment issue where magic items are overpowered. Its a dollars and plat issue as the good folks at Turbine seek to separate us from both.

[Crann]

Soloed my way through COS and no belt Hard to get a group for that one, with how long that quest chain is. I guess a stack of waterbreathing pots will have to do for now. You can also add the rare in three barrel cove in the underwater cave to the list where an UA item is greatly more preferrable to spells or potions. Went with a vet over the weekend who knew the way pretty well, and still took the duration of a few spells to find. Alot of spellpoints wasted trying to jump out of water to cast waterbreathing.

[taurean430]

Actually you *can* miss out on that ring by rolling a veteran alt. So no ring of water breathing for those that roll veteran characters. You can go back to Korthos for favor and pretty much everything else. But since that ring is in The Grotto any veteran characters will be unable to acquire it.

Because I've sure as heck not seen a way back into that quest to stock up on eternal wands for casters at low levels when I went looking.

If it helps at all...

I made a vet paladin that accidentally died helping the kidlets do a Korthos quest. Funny thing is, I res'd at the starting quest point, as I hadn't anchored anywhere. I thought that was pretty cool.

[Mysterium]

Over the last many years I've participated in a few D&D campaigns. Almost none of them gave any attention to the economy and almost all of them ended with the player characters sitting on vast amounts of wealth. In perspective it meant that, were the PCs real people, nobody would every do more than the first few adventures because they would have earned enough to be set for generations to come.

But, D&D is a game. The real life players are not playing in order to create L5 characters who earn a fortune and retire*. The players are playing for the enjoyment of the game with little or no regard to the accumulated wealth.

I notice that DDO has a cycle of day and night and it appears to run multiple times in any 24 hour period. This means there is an in-game clock and that means it is possible to have an in-game calendar. Everyday living takes resources -- plat. And just like real life requires food, shelter and clothing the in-game world should require these as well. Just as the place you live collects taxes so too should the Coin Lords collect their share from the PCs.

You manage an over abundance of wealth by creating an economy that is realistic and consistent with the fantasy world itself. You do not manage an over abundance of wealth by altering the game to force people to play certain quests or make specific purchases. You don't line your own corporate pocket by removing UA items and then charging for the only race that does not need them.

The economy in a small tabletop game (in which the players do commerce primarily with imaginary NPCS) and the economy in a large scale persistent world MMO (in which the players do commerce primarily with each other) are apples and oranges. As stated previously, the problem with this mechanic in the latter type of economy is that new players are essentially barred from economic participation. As MMOs are funded by their players, it wouldn't be very good business to put this kind of model in place.

I do like the idea of buying food, shelter, things like that. In fact, this sort of money sink was present in most persistent worlds when I started playing MUDs. After a while, developers caught on that most gamers, unlike me, didn't like having to worry about food, water and shelter to keep their character alive. More importantly, they realized that these mechanics were prohibitive to new players. Once MMOs became commercial endeavors, all efforts had to be made to eliminate or simplify those mechanics that limited the potential new playerbase. This is especially true in games supported primarily by box sales (most MMOs and DDO once upon a time.)

[Falryn]

Edit: *Note that Tolkien's Hobbit features just that -- Bilbo finds a fortune and it finances him and Frodo for the rest of their lives. And, on his first quest.

Yes and no, Bilbo did find enough wealth to do this. But he was the equivalent of a noble to begin with. Being descended from the Old Took. This made him independently wealthy before ever leaving home.

[Alex301]

Congratz, you just necro'ed a 3 year old thread

[Garseya]

barrels in Korthos are dropping +2's!

[Bodic]

Beware the Rid****.
Kill the Rid****.

[porq]

Yes and no, Bilbo did find enough wealth to do this. But he was the equivalent of a noble to begin with. Being descended from the Old Took. This made him independently wealthy before ever leaving home.

People in this thread stopped caring about this discussion years ago, that's why the last post before yours was posted

12-21-2009 12:43 PM

[Cordovan]

Thread necro.