Wizard/Rogue Build

**entropiccanuck** · 08-04-2010, 07:04 PM

Compared to a pure WF wiz, what're you giving up?

- DCs -1 due to -2 int, metamagics cost 1 more sp each, heighten 1/level due to capstone
- level 20 wizard feat (likely enlarge or a spell school focus?)
- Due to -2 caster level: Duration on spells a bit less. This will mostly make a small difference for the short buffs, such as extended haste or displace, which will last 3:36 instead of 4:00 at 20. Spells that do damage / level up to 20 do a bit less damage. Notably, polar ray will lose 2d6, disintegrate 4d6 (failed save), and firewall 2 points, before boosts. -2 spell penetration.
- 2 fewer level 9 spells, 1 fewer for 7 and 8. (I'd miss the 7 the most.)
- -1 will save
- around 200 spell points.

In return, you get:
- ** fully functional search/disarm skills (int bonus to these makes wiz/rogues effective trap monkeys). This may be obvious, but that comes with an additional role and playstyle in groups (good for wizards bored with firewalling.)
- Evasion and +3 reflex save
- useful pick/mix of open locks, UMD, spot, sneaking, depending on what you go for.
- a bit more melee ability (rogue haste, 1d6 sneak attack)
- 4 hp

That's hopefully close to a complete list, let me know if I missed something. I know the top list is longer, but most of those are pretty minor. I know it's outside the scope of your build, but Past life: Wizard would take care of the two more significant losses (IMO), the DC & spell penetration.

As an aside, Drow stat bonuses are all useful to this build, and they get skill bonuses to spot and search. That's not enough to outweigh going WF, but some might like that route if they haven't unlocked WF or something.

Thanks for the post. I'm planning on TRing my wiz to something like this, and seeing what you put together (and the ensuing discussion) has been helpful.

**rimble** · 08-06-2010, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by entropiccanuck

That's hopefully close to a complete list, let me know if I missed something.

I think another interesting aspect, particularly for someone like me who solos alot (getting ready to TR my Drow Sorc to a WF Wiz/Rog), is that with the Rogue levels you can milk additional XP out of quests. That can be important to TRs. I'm actually planning on leveling up with the two Rogue levels, then drop them at cap (if I don't just TR again instead).

**ladyraye** · 08-06-2010, 08:51 PM

Can this build be done with a Drow?

**BuyerSeller** · 08-09-2010, 01:48 PM

First this is only my opinion and I do not mean to offend anyone with it. We each pay for our own game and have fun with whatever you prefer!

I think the mental toughness feats are a real waste. I would much rather have another feat. I would even say for a wiz/rogue that wants to do epic traps that lightning reflexes would be a better feat than mental toughness. I also do not see ANY spell focus and I think that is a huge mistake. I would go with either necro or enchant personally. I know a lot of people like quicken, but I can't justify taking that on an already at least IMO feat starved 18/2 lol I seriously want at least 3-4 more feats haha.

right now I am 18/2 (palemaster) and my feats are below:

Augment Summons (as much as I love this feat I might drop this for GSP enchant)

extend

maximize

heighten (probably one of the most important feats to have imo)

spell pen

greater spell pen

insightful reflexes

spell focus necro

greater spell focus necro

spell focus enchant

toughness

I will also take any advice on even MY feats, if you think something else would be better in epics feel free to message me and I am always willing to listen and think about my choices.

**gwlech** · 08-15-2010, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by BuyerSeller

First this is only my opinion and I do not mean to offend anyone with it. We each pay for our own game and have fun with whatever you prefer!

I think the mental toughness feats are a real waste. I would much rather have another feat. I would even say for a wiz/rogue that wants to do epic traps that lightning reflexes would be a better feat than mental toughness. I also do not see ANY spell focus and I think that is a huge mistake. I would go with either necro or enchant personally. I know a lot of people like quicken, but I can't justify taking that on an already at least IMO feat starved 18/2 lol I seriously want at least 3-4 more feats haha.

right now I am 18/2 (palemaster) and my feats are below:

Augment Summons (as much as I love this feat I might drop this for GSP enchant)

extend

maximize

heighten (probably one of the most important feats to have imo)

spell pen

greater spell pen

insightful reflexes

spell focus necro

greater spell focus necro

spell focus enchant

toughness

I will also take any advice on even MY feats, if you think something else would be better in epics feel free to message me and I am always willing to listen and think about my choices.

I would agree, however, this build was made specifically for a brand new player that wanted to have a chance to learn the game. It is by no means for powergaming. It does however, pre-date Pale Master and Epics. For a brand new player almost a year ago, with no high level alts or plat to back new characters out, it served its purpose as a low-frustration and easy learning curve build easily with no dependencies on other players.

I don't see you as criticizing at all actually. But to the people who do, keep in mind how discreetly I posted this build. The title "Wizard/Rogue Build" was never meant to draw alot of attention, but by being posted it was available to the people I recommended it to.

Mental toughness are nice feats for leveling, where (at least at the time) DC's didn't really matter for 3/4 of the game, unless you were using something like niacs (A spell I swore never to bother with anyway). Would it be nice to swap them out later on for spell focuses? Sure is, but for a new player leveling a first character, it serves to make things much easier, and doesn't kill the build, and it only pays off to swap them out at or near cap.

I am a bit out of the loop anyway, as I don't play DDO anymore, I just check back in every so often.

**gwlech** · 08-15-2010, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by entropiccanuck

Compared to a pure WF wiz, what're you giving up?

- DCs -1 due to -2 int, metamagics cost 1 more sp each, heighten 1/level due to capstone
- level 20 wizard feat (likely enlarge or a spell school focus?)
- Due to -2 caster level: Duration on spells a bit less. This will mostly make a small difference for the short buffs, such as extended haste or displace, which will last 3:36 instead of 4:00 at 20. Spells that do damage / level up to 20 do a bit less damage. Notably, polar ray will lose 2d6, disintegrate 4d6 (failed save), and firewall 2 points, before boosts. -2 spell penetration.
- 2 fewer level 9 spells, 1 fewer for 7 and 8. (I'd miss the 7 the most.)
- -1 will save
- around 200 spell points.

In return, you get:
- ** fully functional search/disarm skills (int bonus to these makes wiz/rogues effective trap monkeys). This may be obvious, but that comes with an additional role and playstyle in groups (good for wizards bored with firewalling.)
- Evasion and +3 reflex save
- useful pick/mix of open locks, UMD, spot, sneaking, depending on what you go for.
- a bit more melee ability (rogue haste, 1d6 sneak attack)
- 4 hp

That's hopefully close to a complete list, let me know if I missed something. I know the top list is longer, but most of those are pretty minor. I know it's outside the scope of your build, but Past life: Wizard would take care of the two more significant losses (IMO), the DC & spell penetration.

As an aside, Drow stat bonuses are all useful to this build, and they get skill bonuses to spot and search. That's not enough to outweigh going WF, but some might like that route if they haven't unlocked WF or something.

Thanks for the post. I'm planning on TRing my wiz to something like this, and seeing what you put together (and the ensuing discussion) has been helpful.

I knew quite a few people that had splashed rogue with wizard on a TR for those reasons. Yeah, its all about trade-offs. A wiz/rogue is not as powerful a wizard as a pure one, but it makes up for that with the handy abilities and evasion. This is especially so while leveling and even more if one likes to solo a lot.

I leveled 2 of these in the day, and TR'd one of my sorcerers into what would have been a 17/2/1 Wiz/Rog/Barb. I think I ended up stopping at level 17? and he never felt weak, in fact he was really fun to play (although he had a torc, which makes a meleeing wf arcane very interesting to play.) Not as powerful as a Tukaw build, but I have always liked playing arcane and divine casters, and have played them caster-focused and melee-focused, and each has its perks.

**gwlech** · 08-15-2010, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by ladyraye

Can this build be done with a Drow?

Sure, but especially as a beginner, it will be considerably more fragile and harder to solo with. Depends a lot on your playstyle. With quickened reconstructs, a WF arcane can take thousands of damage in a very short amount of time and still be able to survive. A drow wiz/rog will eventually be able to UMD healscrolls, but even that doesn't match clickied, quickened, reconstructs+recon scrolls.

**RobertVesco** · 08-22-2010, 12:03 PM

I'm loving this build. I was able to get all my taps well before level 11 and he's great for soloing content. I'm going to do a lesser reincarnation to correct some mistakes I made early on (2 points into dex? )and to upgrade him to a 32 pt build.
Right now I'm torn between Spot and UMD. I know the popular opinion is UMD, but with his low CHA, no SF:UMD feat it will be fairly low. I also solo a lot with him so healing and raise dead are not really an issue.
I'm looking at spot because a lot of content is new to me and even the stuff I know, I can't remember where all the traps are and it will help me see hidden mobs. What do you guys think?

**Irinis** · 08-27-2010, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by RobertVesco

I'm loving this build. I was able to get all my taps well before level 11 and he's great for soloing content. I'm going to do a lesser reincarnation to correct some mistakes I made early on (2 points into dex? )and to upgrade him to a 32 pt build.
Right now I'm torn between Spot and UMD. I know the popular opinion is UMD, but with his low CHA, no SF:UMD feat it will be fairly low. I also solo a lot with him so healing and raise dead are not really an issue.
I'm looking at spot because a lot of content is new to me and even the stuff I know, I can't remember where all the traps are and it will help me see hidden mobs. What do you guys think?

If you want nofail raise scrolls for the party or nofail heal scrolls to help others out, then it might work to add the extra 4 buildpoints from 32-pt into CHA. Then you'd have to make a greensteel +6 charisma skills item and make sure to have full ranks in UMD since the rogue levels unlock that.

23 +3 charisma mod (of a +6 item) +6 greensteel +4 gh +2 luck (head of good fortune trinket) = 38, rogue skill boost for 40
Cartouche is 3, you can use that before the greensteel is made, or swap it in instead of using up skill boosts for 41.

Of course, that's a lot of larges when you'll probably want to make a +6 int skills greensteel item to get epic traps. And gear slots are really tight on a wiz/rog so fitting in the charisma item may be difficult. But that math shows how you can get nofail at a base 10 charisma.

Back to discussion of the original build: I'd take insightful reflexes first, and also take quicken earlier for uninterrupted selfhealing. Then delay toughness until 12. Starting with 16 con you can survive early levels without it especially if you use bear's endurance a lot.

I should have probably taken UMD on mine but wanted Balance... difficult to selfheal or nuke while laying down on the ground wondering when you can get up.

Agree with taking DC feats rather than Mental Toughnesses.

**RobertVesco** · 08-27-2010, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Irinis

If you want nofail raise scrolls for the party or nofail heal scrolls to help others out, then it might work to add the extra 4 buildpoints from 32-pt into CHA. Then you'd have to make a greensteel +6 charisma skills item and make sure to have full ranks in UMD since the rogue levels unlock that.

23 +3 charisma mod (of a +6 item) +6 greensteel +4 gh +2 luck (head of good fortune trinket) = 38, rogue skill boost for 40
Cartouche is 3, you can use that before the greensteel is made, or swap it in instead of using up skill boosts for 41.

Thanks for the help. I've decided to just go with conventional wisdom and skip spot and raise my UMD. I will also take SF:UMD and if it proves to be a waste, I'll just use the free feat exchange and swap it out later.
I figure:

21 ranks
+3 SF:UMD
+3 Golden Cartouche
+4 Greater Heroism
+1 Voice of the Master
+3 Charisma Item
--------
35 UMD-no raid gear, no tomes, no enhancements, no item grinding.
Not horrible and I can boost it from there.

**rimble** · 08-27-2010, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by RobertVesco

Not horrible and I can boost it from there.

Yup, your GS Spell Point item you can make +5 or +6 Cha Skills for the UMD boost, then (if you need to) you make a +6 Int Skills to carry around and swap into for Rogue duty. Having always-on +Cha Skills is nice, always wearing +Int Skills is much less useful.

**Holymosher** · 08-30-2010, 11:18 AM

is it worth it for 2 rogue? hnestly or pure better, and how much rog 2 lose?

**Holymosher** · 08-30-2010, 11:33 AM

hey all is the 2 rogue worth it or no, should i just go pure wiz? and how much spells will i lose if i take 2 rogue?

**noamto** · 08-31-2010, 04:37 AM

How critical is Insightful Reflexes for this kind of build? I was thinking about starting an 18wiz/2rog Pale Master, and I'm torn between it and Augment Summons, since all other feats seem pretty critical (Heighten, Empower/Maximize, Spell Penetration, Mental Toughness to name a few)

**Dylvish** · 08-31-2010, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by noamto

How critical is Insightful Reflexes for this kind of build? I was thinking about starting an 18wiz/2rog Pale Master, and I'm torn between it and Augment Summons, since all other feats seem pretty critical (Heighten, Empower/Maximize, Spell Penetration, Mental Toughness to name a few)

Its actually quite critical if you look at what it gives. It gives your Int bonus to your reflex saves, instead of your dex. Since your dex is 8 base, you are at a -2 on your saves to start, where as with int, you START at +3 or +4, and it only goes up as you level. The rogue skills are nice, but the major reason most people take 2 levels of rogue is for the evasion ability, which is a ton of reflex saves.
While leveling up, if you are going pale master, I would skip either maximize, or empower to start, then swap out mental toughness for whichever one you left out later on in levels when its not as useful.

**Aurora1979** · 08-31-2010, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Holymosher

hey all is the 2 rogue worth it or no, should i just go pure wiz? and how much spells will i lose if i take 2 rogue?

I love wiz rogues splits but i tend to swap out the two rogue levels with a lesser tr when i reach cap or near.

thats just a personal preferance but i find once you start raiding players want a full wiz and would rather take a rogue for traps.

I just couldnt give up the dc, spell points etc at cap.

I solo alot with this char but once you reach cap you can just run through most traps and any extra xp is invalid anyhow.

**tjaysteno** · 08-31-2010, 02:53 PM

I like the build, but don't have WF. So I whipped this up quick as a Drow alternative and I was wondering what you guys thought. It's more or less a carbon copy of the one listed above, just smarter and much better looking.

I haven't played an arcane caster long enough to get past the harbor quests (because I've sucked at making them) and would like some feedback from someone who has before I waste more time on a crappy build.

Code:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Male
(2 Rogue \ 18 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 146
Spell Points: 1409 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 7
Reflex: 12
Will: 10

                  Starting            Ending          
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats        
(28 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)        
Strength              8                  8            
Dexterity            16                 16            
Constitution         12                 12            
Intelligence         20                 25            
Wisdom                8                  8            
Charisma             10                 10            

                  Starting            Ending          
                 Base Skills        Base Skills       
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)        
Balance               7                  7            
Bluff                 0                  0            
Concentration         3                 24            
Diplomacy             0                  0            
Disable Device        9                 30            
Haggle                4                  4            
Heal                  1                  1            
Hide                  3                  3            
Intimidate            0                  0            
Jump                  3                  3            
Listen                3                  3            
Move Silently         3                  3            
Open Lock             7                 22            
Perform               n/a               n/a           
Repair                5                  7            
Search                9                 30            
Spot                  3                  6            
Swim                  3                  3            
Tumble                7                  7            
Use Magic Device      4                 23            

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Listen (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Swim (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell


Level 3 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 5 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 6 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness


Level 7 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 8 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+8)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness


Level 10 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 11 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 12 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell
Feat: (Selected) Rapid Reload


Level 13 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 15 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration


Level 16 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 17 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell


Level 18 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration


Level 19 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

This build improves on the WF design in a few areas (saves you a feat on reflex saves, allows you to use OL instead of using SP for Knock) while taking some hits in other areas (less HP, can't heal/repair itself, generally poorer at soloing). While it would be fun to be a soloing wizard, I think in the end the costs and benefits of the switch to Drow balance out.

In combat this build would be played as support, focusing on controlling the field with spells like Web, Sleet Storm, WOF, etc. Instead of trying to rack up kills, the goal is to take pressure off of the tanks by immobilizing, controlling, or weakening mobs. Of course, my metamagics are probably wrong for that purpose so some help with those would be appreciated. Then if sp runs, I can switch to a shortbow or crossbow and still feel like I'm contributing something.

Thoughts?

**Aurora1979** · 08-31-2010, 03:02 PM

IMO i would roll a sorc if you wana go drow. or use a human if you wana stick with wizard.

For one thing CHA as a main stat will help you UMD which in turn will give you better self healing.....

Actually, you can probably still make 39 umd with your cha there......

To be honest ive never rolled a drow wizard so i probably shouldnt comment and im sure someone will come in with so solid advice.

**noamto** · 08-31-2010, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by Dylvish

While leveling up, if you are going pale master, I would skip either maximize, or empower to start, then swap out mental toughness for whichever one you left out later on in levels when its not as useful.

So is Augment Summons is pretty much a must have for pale masters?

**tjaysteno** · 09-01-2010, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Aurora1979

IMO i would roll a sorc if you wana go drow. or use a human if you wana stick with wizard.

For one thing CHA as a main stat will help you UMD which in turn will give you better self healing.....

Actually, you can probably still make 39 umd with your cha there......

UMD is secondary to rogue skills for me and it's much tougher to do an effective sorc/rogue build. Drow get +2 Int though which is why the main reason I chose it over human, elf, or halfling.

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