My Paladin, continue or start over?

[rmmcrae]

Ok, my Paldin was the first toon I leveled at all and while I have tried other classes and enjoyed tem I think the Paladin is the one I want to go full way with first. That said I am curious if I gimped myself at all. Here is what I have done so far.

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Arrigoth 
Level 5 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(5 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 70
Spell Points: 73 
BAB: 5\5\10
Fortitude: 6
Reflex: 3
Will: 5

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 5)
Strength             17                    18
Dexterity            10                    10
Constitution         10                    11
Intelligence          9                     9
Wisdom               14                    14
Charisma             12                    12

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 5)
Balance               0                     4
Bluff                 1                     1
Concentration         0                     5
Diplomacy             1                     1
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle                1                     1
Heal                  2                     3
Hide                  0                     0
Intimidate            1                     1
Jump                  3                     4
Listen                2                     2
Move Silently         0                     0
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                     1
Spot                  2                     2
Swim                  3                     4
Tumble                1                     1
Use Magic Device      2                     3

Level 1 (Paladin)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Good
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Dwarven Stability
Feat: (Automatic) Dwarven Stonecutting
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Dwarven Waraxe
Feat: (Automatic) Giant Evasion
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Orc and Goblin Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Poison Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Smite Evil
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Armored Agility I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Grace
Feat: (Automatic) Lay on Hands
Enhancement: Dwarven Goblinoid Hatred I
Enhancement: Dwarven Poison Resistance I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Health
Feat: (Automatic) Fear Immunity
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Turn Undead
Enhancement: Dwarven Giant Dodger I
Enhancement: Paladin Heal I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Dwarven Faith I

So is there anything done I can't recover from?

My focus obviously is melee damage but I also want to be a competant healer. I love the auras and extra saves from the Pally other wise I would try Battle Cleric.

I want add some Ranger Levels to the build but I am not sure how many I should do or if I should at all. The reason being for the free TWF feats.

Any feedback is welcome.

[TechNoFear]

IMO your paladin is a bit gimped, sorry.

His Con and Chr is low, Wis too high.

Wis is a dump stat for paladins as items, enhancements and tomes allow you to cast spells [Wis 8 + 6 item == cast 4 th lvl spells]

Chr is used for saves, smites, LoHands and Divine might, making Chr very important.

You got UMD and Power Attack which are good. I would get Toughness instead of Cleave. Extend is also helpful.



TWF req 3 feats (and unless 12 ranger) a 17 Dex. You want the GTWF so all your Smites and Divine Sacs hit with both weps (or you have to time your smites very well).

6 rngr / 14 pal is a good combo (1-6 rgr, rest paladin) if you can reach 17 Dex by lvl 12. This combo gets 10% boosts from both Tempest 1 and Zeal.

[rmmcrae]

IMO your paladin is a bit gimped, sorry.

His Con and Chr is low, Wis too high.

Wis is a dump stat for paladins as items, enhancements and tomes allow you to cast spells [Wis 8 + 6 item == cast 4 th lvl spells]

Chr is used for saves, smites, LoHands and Divine might, making Chr very important.

You got UMD and Power Attack which are good. I would get Toughness instead of Cleave. Extend is also helpful.



TWF req 3 feats (and unless 12 ranger) a 17 Dex. You want the GTWF so all your Smites and Divine Sacs hit with both weps (or you have to time your smites very well).

6 rngr / 14 pal is a good combo (1-6 rgr, rest paladin) if you can reach 17 Dex by lvl 12. This combo gets 10% boosts from both Tempest 1 and Zeal.

No need to apologize. It's basically what I was afraid of.

[Junts]

Your con and charisma really damage your character, since many paladin abilities are based on charisma. Since you are only level 5, it would probably be a good idea to re-roll the character now rather than later. If you had less-pressing mistakes, you could put them off to a greater reincarnation after its implemented and you cap, but with your present build you will run into fairly significant problems in the level 10-13 range.

On the other hand, keep in mind that you've really enjoyed paladin despite getting almost no advantage from half the class's abilities. Imagine how much fun you'll have when your saves bonus, lay on hands, and other abilities augment what you've been doing already.


I would decide what kind of paladin build you want to play (ac tank? thf dps? twf? with evasion or not? etc) and then look up a build like that on the forums. Even if you customize or change things from there, it'll give you a good idea of whats important for the kind of paladin you want to play.

[William_the_Bat]

TWF pallies are hard to do because they need so many attributes spread thin, but they do an obscene amount of damage if built and equipped well.

THF or S&B pallies are easier to build, as you don't need all the dex, but of course your damage output suffers. A defender S&B pally can reach a raid buffed AC of 75 eventually in power attack mode, or higher with the right gear and combat expertise, which most people will agree is a "useful" armor class for tanking. They do lose out on the damage dealing, however. A THF pally can swing a big sword effectively, and not need the points in dex, but of course you are still not doing the same damage the THF pally can.

To free up points for your other attributes, I'd actually reduce your strength down to 16, maybe even 15 depending on your ability to find/willingness to buy tomes, and lower the wisdom to 8 or 10 (if it's 8, it's much harder to cast your lower level spells as you level up, until you are higher level and can equip better items)

Then you can put either crank up the con and cha, or the dex and the cha if you are thinking of going two-weapon.

Something to keep in mind about charisma, more gives you better saves, increases the to-hit of your smites, increases the healing of your hands, and gives you more turn undeads to burn on Divine Might, but most importantly it's your BASE charisma, (starting, level ups, and tomes, no items or enhancements) that determine the maximum level of divine might you can carry, and you want as much as possible. If you are going to stay pure pally, you'll want a starting cha of 16 so you can eventually (assuming a +4 tome.. they are out there, just a matter of time) get divine might 4, which adds +8 to damage every hit. A pure pally also gets the capstone at 20.. which is even more awesome damage. Of course, if you are thinking of splashing, you won't need as much. In fact, if you are doing the tempest zealot thing suggested above, you will only be able to get a maximum of divine might 2, which only needs 16 base cha -after- tomes, so you could take 14 cha and a +2 or 3 tome would get you there.

There's a lot of good pally builds out there.. you might check around these forums and see what you like and what you don't like.

One thing to keep in mind though.. you mention healing ability.. paladins just don't have the SP to heal much with spells. The lay on hands is awesome in a pinch... it's very fast, can't be interrupted, and heals warforged as easily as fleshies, but you only get so many. They can also use wands, and if they have a high enough UMD, heal scrolls, but you'll run out of SP very fast if you try to be effective casting more than just your buffs. Some people do make a self-healing pally work.. they have max ranks in concentration and some very high end equipment that can give them spell points when they get hit and a metamagic feat or two... in short, they are built for it, and even then it won't work until you get some specialized equipment at high level.

Anyway, good luck! And don't be afraid to ask questions if you want to tweak some of the builds you see on the forums or invent one of your own.

[kaidendager]

I'd agree with most of the critiques posted above, but just want to add one thing:

Do you enjoy playing him?

It's not all about have the exact peak of efficiency on the stats of a character, sometimes character feasibility comes from simple fun.

[rmmcrae]

I'd agree with most of the critiques posted above, but just want to add one thing:

Do you enjoy playing him?

It's not all about have the exact peak of efficiency on the stats of a character, sometimes character feasibility comes from simple fun.

I have played everything but Favored and Monk (Monk is unlocked though) to about level 4 so far. The Paladin so far is the toon I have enjoyed the most. I want a toon that can self heal in some capacity and really would rather not MC.

I am only a few weeks in so I don't have access to Tomes and most of my equipment is +2 with the odd +3.

I am playing with the Character builder and looking at future enhancements I am assuming I want to work towards Divine Sacrifice and Exalted Smite. I will likely be doing a low Dex THF build with high STR and CHA.

[Junts]

I have played everything but Favored and Monk (Monk is unlocked though) to about level 4 so far. The Paladin so far is the toon I have enjoyed the most. I want a toon that can self heal in some capacity and really would rather not MC.

I am only a few weeks in so I don't have access to Tomes and most of my equipment is +2 with the odd +3.

I am playing with the Character builder and looking at future enhancements I am assuming I want to work towards Divine Sacrifice and Exalted Smite. I will likely be doing a low Dex THF build with high STR and CHA.

Don't forget Divine Might, too. Do you have 32 or 28 point builds? Do you want to splash 2 levels for evasion/feats/umd/etc or not, and if so, which of those things?

If you answer those two questions, I can give you a build.

[rmmcrae]

I did say in the reply you quoted I don't want to MC if I can help it.

This is a build I put together tonight. Please tell me if I have spread my enhancements to thin or if i have chosen anything that simply isn't as useful as i seem to think it is.

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Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(20 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 332
Spell Points: 266 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 21
Reflex: 13
Will: 18

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             16                 19                   20
Dexterity            10                 10                   10
Constitution         14                 14                   14
Intelligence          8                  8                    8
Wisdom                8                  8                    8
Charisma             16                 18                   20

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               2                 11                   11
Bluff                 3                  5                    5
Concentration         2                  2                    2
Diplomacy             3                  5                    5
Disable Device       n/a               n/a                   n/a
Haggle                3                  5                    5
Heal                 -1                 -1                   -1
Hide                  0                  0                    0
Intimidate            3                  5                    5
Jump                  3                  5                    5
Listen               -1                 -1                   -1
Move Silently         0                  0                    0
Open Lock             n/a               n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                 -1                   -1
Search               -1                 -1                   -1
Spot                 -1                 -1                   -1
Swim                  3                  5                    5
Tumble                n/a                1                    1
Use Magic Device      5                 16                   16

Level 1 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II


Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning I


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II


Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II


Level 13 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar III


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extra Turning
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Charisma I


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III


Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III


Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning II

Thanks again for everyones help.

[Junts]

you dont need extra turning. you do wnat greater-two handed fighting

you also dont want force of personality

redo your feats in this order:

1: thf
1H: toughness
3: pa (but dont use it until 10-12)
6: extend
9: ithf
12: ic: slash
15: gthf
18: skill focus: umd

I'd put your last 2 points in either int or wis instead of dex .. dex gets you almost nothing, 1 more skill point/level is probably the best you can get with those 2 points. On a 32 pt, youd go 17 str/17 cha instead.

[rmmcrae]

You sure about Force of Personality? I have read quite a few times it's a big one.

As for extra turning it was 3am and I have no idea why I picked it.

[Junts]

Force is a terrible feat on a character thats already getting its cha mod to will saves .. if your paladin has problems with will saves, something's very, very wrong.

[rmmcrae]

Sorry, I am still new, can you tell me what is already causing my CHA modifier to be added to Will Saves.

[Shamurai]

My first and "best" character is still my gimped Pally.. I did put way to much into Wis and no where near enough in Con... I am neither TWF nor THF (feat wise) and here's my thoughts.

Heidiann: Lvl 18 ~ KoTC specced.

I LOVE HER! I still need to flop one feat (or two) but she's great! Here's some reasons why:
~ Great saves all nearis to 30 unbuffed and no feat enhancements
~ 3 LoH for over 240 Hps per heal
~ Unyielding Sovreignty ~ Heals 1000+ plus all my conditions
-- Both the above can pop up a party member in a pinch.
~ Rarely am I the first to die (barring a bad reflex save roll - No Evasion GRR)
~ KoTC gives her fairly decent DPS - I'm never highest kill count but I still hold my own in most quests and raids

Recently I tried wielding longswords (of which I have many now) in both hands to increase my DPS. (I.e. 2 Great Giant Banes in GH, 2 Vorpals, etc) and my BaB is still over 20+ with each and more when I use Divine Favor. SO for most mobs I miss only on 1's and even bosses I hit on 4's, and that's with no feats taken for TWF (yes the feats would help but I did mention I am gimped)

She's very versatile and fairly self sufficient. If anyone wants to guess what I'll recincarnate her into... you can be assured that Heidiann, the Platinum Blonde Paladin for Justice will still be a Platinum Blonde Paladin for Justice just with 34 pts, better stat distribution (better gear once the Original Heidi farms it all) with .... maybe a peek at Junts build to give her evasion - Enter the Kobold gave me nightmares for my lack of evasion.)

[Mithran]

Sorry, I am still new, can you tell me what is already causing my CHA modifier to be added to Will Saves.

Two levels of Paladin do that for you.

It's why High Charisma is nice with a Paladin splash (or with an Evasion splash for Paladins).

[Irinis]

Er, the character planner shows the WIS mod still going to will saves, not the CHA mod, unless you take Force of Personality.

Level 2? Divine Grace, bonus to saving throws equal to CHA bonus. Whoa that looks nice!

However the planner still shows will save of 10 without FoP, and will save of 15 with FoP, at lvl20. (That's quickly done without enhancements on CHA added. So 12 w/o and 18 with FoP.)

[miceelf88]

After 2 levels of paladin, the character gets to add their charisma modifier to all saves. It's exactly redundant with force of personality. The planner may not be clear in that regard, but that's the case.

In general, paladins have great saves for this reason. So feats that improve saves further tend to be wastes.

The early levels will occasionally have failed saves for you, but in the long term, your saves will be fine.

[hermespan]

Er, the character planner shows the WIS mod still going to will saves, not the CHA mod, unless you take Force of Personality.

Level 2? Divine Grace, bonus to saving throws equal to CHA bonus. Whoa that looks nice!

However the planner still shows will save of 10 without FoP, and will save of 15 with FoP, at lvl20. (That's quickly done without enhancements on CHA added. So 12 w/o and 18 with FoP.)

That's because FoP stacks with the charisma bonus to saves granted by Divine Grace. FoP, as others have pointed out, shouldn't be necessary for a pure pally, but would be useful in multiclass builds that have pally in them and use wisdom as a dump stat. I'm not sure I know of such a build but they probably exist...

And level 20 paladin with a will save of 10? Is that even possible? Update your character builder to latest version and start over. Maybe the data is fubar'd. I've noticed strange things happening when I do and undo stuff in the planner. If I build it straight through without changing stuff back and forth it's a lot more reliable.

[Junts]

A paladin can use wis as a dump stat and will still have a very high will save

Remember, the planner is not accounting for enhancements (to cha, and to paladin saves aura), or equipment (resistance item, charisma item, wisdom item)

In the end you will have a will save that looks something like:

6 base
8 cha bonus
3 wis bonus
2-3 aura bonus
4 greater heroism
5 resistance item
1 resistance ritual
---

30-31 will save, with dump stat wis and mediocre (26) charisma. You're more likely to end up at 28 cha with a 16-17 base, which would mean another point via divine grace.

[Junts]

Sorry, I am still new, can you tell me what is already causing my CHA modifier to be added to Will Saves.

charisma modifier to -all- saves, divine grace.

FOP replaces wisdom with your cha modifier for will saves, which means you will go from +3 (16 wisdom) to +8 or so (26 charisma), 5 will save is not worth a feat slot, not when you'll already break 30.