Suggestion for Changes to Cleric and Wizard

[leowen]

Introduction:
My background is as a Project Manager for a very successful company. I have also been an avid gamer for most of my life. With my job, I have helped design several systems that have helped increase revenue and help customers with technical problems, general ease of use of the technology, and interactive menus on our website.

I have also been a loyal customer of Turbine for many years, through several games. I know your game designers are great, and I don’t mean to step on any toes. I hope to spark imagination.

I have been giving this some thought over the past couple of hours and I wanted to present what I think would be a great idea to implement. I would definitely see your customer base much happier, by helping to customize the game a bit more, control prices with the economy, and breathe some life into certain classes.

Problem
Though I am sure that there are some would disagree, having played both Clerics and Favored Souls, and Wizards and Sorcerers, there is a big gap between the classes.
At this time, there are very few reasons to play either a Wizard or a Cleric when you are able to play a Sorcerer or Favored Soul. From a pure caster standpoint, only certain spells are useful at the very top level of the game, and all 4 classes usually have a very similar spell selection, with sorcerers and favored souls having a huge advantage over their counterparts in the area of spell points.

Sorcerers and Favored souls are stuck to the spell selection that they have, though they may swap out every 3 days, with a monetary cost. On the other side, clerics and wizards may swap freely with many more spells known. This is still not enough to give them a good advantage.

Solution:
Give some additional resources to make both Cleric and Wizard a valid alternative, but keep the bonuses within the Dungeons and Dragons theme. By introducing some extra elements to these classes, players may be more motivated to keep playing their older characters, increasing monthly revenue. Also, with any new features, more players will try these classes out, also keeping more players playing.

With item creation feats, new drops can be added. Also, existing monster drops with no use can be given a use (GEMS). These new drops can be spread out, so that players will have the need to trade with each other, or run quests over and over, keeping them as customers, to get the items that they want.

Also, as a by-blow to helping these 2 classes, currently the in-game market economy is completely out of control, from a player standpoint, by putting a form of crafting into the game, this will artificially limit the amount that players can charge. This will let more auctions be purchased, taking more money out the game from vendor fees.

Proposal:
New Cleric/Wizard line of class feats: These can be handled like the existing line of feats, but that will make the characters less effective at playing with their peers.

Alternatively, these can be handled as a class “Bonus” feats.

For example, a cleric or wizard leveling up:

Level 1: Scribe Scroll
Level 3: Brew Potion or Craft Wand
Level 5: Create Arms and Armor or Create Wondrous Item
Level 7: Brew Potion or Craft Wand
Level 10: Create Wondrous Item or Create Arms and Armor.

Level 1: Scribe Scroll
Effect: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Creating a scroll costs gold pieces based on the relative power of the spell. Scrolls containing first level spells can cost hundreds of gold pieces while those made with higher level spells can cost several thousand. Any arcane or divine spell of any level may be placed on a scroll. When you click the icon, it gives a list of known spells, and scroll is made from that list. Scroll is made at casters caster level. Use consumes blank Parchment.
Limitation: These scrolls can be traded or sold at auction, but are unable to be sold at a vendor. Would use a new purchasable item: Blank Parchment

Level 3: Brew Potion
Effect: You can create a potion of any beneficial, single-target spell of 3rd level or less that you know. Creating a potion costs gold pieces based on the relative power of the spell. Potions containing first level spells can cost hundreds of gold pieces while those made with higher level spells can cost several thousand. Use of this feat will create a stack of 10 potions. Shrine use will reset this ability. Use consumes blank potion bottle.
Limitation: These potions can be traded or sold at auction, but are unable to be sold at a vendor. Would use a new item: Blank Potion Bottle.

Level 3: Craft Wand
Effect: You can create a wand of any spell of 4th level or less that you know. To create a wand, you need to know the appropriate spell and have a blank wand in your inventory. Creating a wand costs gold pieces based on the relative power of the spell. Wands containing first level spells can cost a few thousand gold pieces while those made with higher level spells can cost tens of thousands.
Limitation: These wands can be traded or sold at auction, but are unable to be sold at a vendor.

Level 5: Craft Magical Arms and Armor
Use: This feat grants the ability to create magic weapons, armor, and shields.
Effect: The character places the item to be enchanted (A blank Masterwork copy, along with all reagents required, into the magical workbench's inventory, then activates the enchantment by casting the correct spell on the workbench. Recipe books (containing recipes for item creation), Essences, gems, and scrolls to create various magic arms and armors can be added to existing loot tables to be found throughout the game.
Limitation: Gives the cleric the ability to create Armor and Weapons. These weapons and armor cannot be higher then what the character can use. These weapons and armor can be traded or sold on the auction house, but not able to be sold to a vendor.

Level 5: Craft Wondrous Item
Use: This feat grants the ability to create magic Jewelry or Clothing
Effect: The character places the item to be enchanted, normally A blank Masterwork copy, along with all reagents required, into the magical workbench's inventory, then activates the enchantment by casting the correct spell on the workbench. Recipe books (containing recipes for item creation), Essences, gems, and scrolls to create various magic arms and armors can be added to existing loot tables to be found throughout the game.
Limitation: Gives the cleric the ability to create Jewelry or Clothing. These items armor cannot be higher then what the character can use. These items can be traded or sold on the auction house, but not able to be sold to a vendor.

Level 7: Brew Potion now makes stacks of 10 potions per use, and also uses 10 blank potions. Scribe Scroll now make a stack of 5 and uses 5 blank parchments.

Level 10: Potions +5 to total in stack/use, scrolls +5 to total in stack/use, Wands have additional 10 uses.

Level 14: Potions +5 again, scrolls +5 again. Wands have 10 more uses. Increase Wand cap to lvl 5 spells.

Level 16: Potions +5 again, scrolls +5 again. Wands have 10 more uses. Increase Wand cap to lvl 6 spells.

Level 18: Potions +5 again, scrolls +5 again. Wands have 10 more uses.

Level 20: Potions +5 again, to total of 30 potions made for each use of feat, scrolls +5 again for a total of 25 per use. Wands have 10 more uses, to a total of 100 uses per wand. Increase Wand cap to lvl 7 spells.




Things that can be implemented and example recipes:

1: Existing loot can be given a purpose: At this time, there are no uses for gems that come from chests within the game. By making these a requirement for item creation, players will trade more freely, and more money can be taken out of the game, via auction fee’s and creation.

2: Recipes: Basic recipes for item creation (Create arms and armor/create wondrous item) can be know when the feat is taken. Superior item effects can be learned by collecting recipes. These recipes can be dropped by bosses or mini bosses.

Example Recipe:

Adamantine Fullplate of Divine Favor
Requires:

XX,XXX Base GP Value
X Dragonshards
X Gems
X Scrolls of Stoneskin
X Scrolls of Divine Favor
Suit of Masterwork Platemail

An Example of where recipes can drop from:

Prefix’s known:
Flaming
Acid
Prefix’s collected:
Flaming Burst (Taming the Flames)
Acid Burst (Proof is in the Poison)

To increase revenue, I suggest that recipes only drop from modules/packs that have to be purchased or are VIP areas.

This is just a suggestion. I am sure many will disagree, but I honestly feel that this would help out the game in several ways. Introduce more trade between players, give players the ability to create their own arms and armor, and making wizards and clerics definitely more viable and needed in the community.

If you want anymore ideas like this, pm me, and I'll hit you up with something.

[karnokvolrath]

I do agree its fairly unbalanced on the wiz/sorc side of it....i dont know why anyone would ever play a wizard unless it was a shadowmage type.

I seem to remember Fvs spell dcs to still be based off wisdom (i could be wrong i thought i heard that though).
Any clerification on that? I was debating making a offence casting/buffer/evasion 18/2 fvs or cleric. I mostly play in all WF parties so being a combat cleric is totally liked just for the buffs . The sp on a Fvs would be greater but i was thinking monk/cleric for ac and dcs....its debatable though.

[Phidius]

I can't agree with your assessment on the relative value of wizards vs. sorcs.

But I have absolutely no problem with people thinking wizards are inferior if it means more toys to play with

[Renvar]

I am all for the idea of more crafting options, particularly outside of the shroud. I think the way you have it laid out is interesting. Hope that sparks some imagination.

I disagree, however, that there is no reason to play a cleric or a wizard. More spell points is really not that compelling a reason to play only favored soul or sorcerer, imo. Both classes have several differentiators over their counterparts beyond ease of spell selection or quantity of spells available for casting (and I also disagree with your downplaying of these benefits). The advantage of more mana is minor anyways. There are typically enough mana pots, shrines, and scrolls/wands available to overcome that issue. I'd argue that a sorcerer's casting speed and cool down is more valuable than their extra mana.

In any case, let's see some new crafting options. Just un-hook it from the cleric/wiz classes. Let all 4 casting classes (and maybe bards too) get in on the act.

[karnokvolrath]

Just to clarify on the sorc/wiz thing, i do beleave that crosssclassed wizards make more sence in most cases. The spell selection imo is useless, pretty much i use the same spells always and just scroll the ones that i dont have slots for. The mana thing isnt THAT huge, but casting speed/cool down is HUGE imo.

[leowen]

I am all for the idea of more crafting options, particularly outside of the shroud. I think the way you have it laid out is interesting. Hope that sparks some imagination.

I disagree, however, that there is no reason to play a cleric or a wizard. More spell points is really not that compelling a reason to play only favored soul or sorcerer, imo. Both classes have several differentiators over their counterparts beyond ease of spell selection or quantity of spells available for casting (and I also disagree with your downplaying of these benefits). The advantage of more mana is minor anyways. There are typically enough mana pots, shrines, and scrolls/wands available to overcome that issue. I'd argue that a sorcerer's casting speed and cool down is more valuable than their extra mana.

In any case, let's see some new crafting options. Just un-hook it from the cleric/wiz classes. Let all 4 casting classes (and maybe bards too) get in on the act.

Ironicly, I'm sure all the posts will follow will say the same thing. I truly belive that there are good reasons to play wizards and clerics, but the comment will get people thinking, and is why I left it in. You'll see

I come up with pretty good ideas, but definitly my main talent is to get other people thinking on their own.

[leowen]

Alternatavly, I could work on somthing tomarrow, that has no bias to class options at all. Work is slow, and I did this over the past 2 hours, so, heh.

[Kalari]

Op while I find your ideas interesting mark me in the very small minority in this game.

Ive seen it for the longest and still do not agree with it that sorcs and favored souls are better then wizards/clerics I now have both at various levels with all my capped arcanes being wizards. 3 level 20 wizards have shown me how to manage sp, use my spells wisely and not go off like im a tank when I can better work with the party using my spells to debuff/immoblize and nuke if needed. Buffing isnt even an issue at higher levels either for me since most are somewhat self sufficient at that level.

As for my cleric vs favored soul its nice to have a melee capable of healing but just like a cleric most try to lump favored souls into healing only. Having more spell points lately only means more people expect you to heal and buff longer and not run out of points as fast as a cleric and dont expect dv's. Basically unless you play with smart players most groups will try to push you into the heal bot role and actually get mad if you are killing better then them. (though could be just a bad luck of immature players who knows?)

I think its up to the person though I know im not the only player that prefers wizards and clerics over the more sp of the sorc and favored soul but I also know im in a very small group that definitely does and dont mind that. I know that I will always have more clerics and wizards then sorcs and favored souls I find them to be my preferred arcane/divine casters.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I like the idea of being able to craft stuff, but not sure if I like it to just be Wizards/Clerics.


Not sure the biggest thing about Sorcs/FvS is the SP, but the cooldown times. (And someone mentioned earlier that FvS DCs are based on WIS and not CHA, this is correct.)


Now, I think that they should all be able to craft, but just like FvS/Sorcs haven't actually learned spells (and just cast them more innately), I think that Clerics and Wizards should be able to craft with more efficiency. So a cleric could make a wand with 50 uses, but an FvS only a wand with say 30 uses (I just fudged the numbers) for the same price and at the same level.


What do people think of that?

[Chaosprism]

I think wizards and sorcs.. and clerics and fvs should have different enhancements.


I still want to see wizards with SPELL SCHOOL specific feats. +1 effective caster levels to spells of that school etc.

CONJURATION
EVOCATION
NECROMANCY
ENCHANTMENT/ILLUSION
TRANSMUTATION

Are the big ones..
(abjuration and divination are very minor at the moment)

[Visty]

I think wizards and sorcs.. and clerics and fvs should have different enhancements.


I still want to see wizards with SPELL SCHOOL specific feats. +1 effective caster levels to spells of that school etc.

CONJURATION
EVOCATION
NECROMANCY
ENCHANTMENT/ILLUSION
TRANSMUTATION

Are the big ones..
(abjuration and divination are very minor at the moment)

those feats exist

anyway, currently wizards and sorcs are rather balanced, though clerics are way <<<<< fav souls.
once we get domains or the PrEs for clerics things might change but as it is right now fav soul is superior in any way to clerics

[Sirea]

I think wizards and sorcs.. and clerics and fvs should have different enhancements.


I still want to see wizards with SPELL SCHOOL specific feats. +1 effective caster levels to spells of that school etc.

CONJURATION
EVOCATION
NECROMANCY
ENCHANTMENT/ILLUSION
TRANSMUTATION

Are the big ones..
(abjuration and divination are very minor at the moment)

Um, casters can already take Spell School feats

I play a wizard and a cleric, and love both of them. I have a sorc and she doesn't hold a candle to my wizard. I'm leveling up a FvS currently but not in a big rush to do so, because I already have a decent cleric.

It all boils down to preference. I prefer wizards for the flexibility of being able to change out spells quickly and for free, being able to prep more spells at a time, and having more feats to play around with. I prefer clerics also for the flexibility, although Wings do look like fun

[Stealthdog]

The gap between Sorc/Wiz doesn't bother me as much as the gap between FvS/Cleric. Wizards get the 5 free meta feats that Sorcerors don't, and that makes up some of the difference. What does a cleric get that FvS don't? Divine Vitality enhancements? Clerics are fairly useless compared to FvS. The Devs really need to finally tackle the Clerics' lack of domains in DDO. Access to domains would bridge the gap between favored souls and clerics.

[Missing_Minds]

* reads chunk of text* Blah blah blah.. I'm a manager... blah blah blah.. caster suck... blah blah blah.. add this to make them better... blah blah blah*

Figures.. it takes an engineer to translate manager speak. Let me sum it up succinctly for everyone.

"I want crafting in the game per pnp rules, but make the caster much more uber at it."


How many times has this been suggested now?

[Thrudh]

Wizards and sorcs are fairly well-balanced right now, in my opinion...

Five extra feats and the ability to swap spells is a decent balance against sorc casting speed. It would help to add a few more niche spells (like Ooze Puppet) so that spell-swapping is worth more..

Clerics, however, could use a lot of love... They don't get extra feats... All they have over favored souls is turning undead (mostly worthless) and DVs... Spell-swapping is even less of an advantage for a cleric, since most divine spells are cures\buffs and can be gotten from a scroll, wand or potion..

I don't think crafting is the way to go however... Maybe add domains to clerics.