Buff skill based stealth (non-spell)

[Angelus_dead]

In EU update 0 ("mod 10"), the Invisibility spell was seriously strengthened because monsters no longer really aggro when you run close by them.

This made Invisbility a lot more powerful, and also shifted the balance between the two sources of stealth. A DDO character can obtain stealth by either of two means: either getting high skills in Hide and Move Silently and then activating the Sneak icon, or by having the Invisibility spell cast on him (optionally with Haste and Jump added in).

The spell-buff choice obviously makes no demand on the character's permanent build choices, while the skill-based stealth calls for not only ranks and ability bonuses, but also good gear and prehaps the exclusion of gear. Since skill-based has more of a cost in character dedication, it makes sense that it should provide better results; or at least similar.

But that's not what happens now. In the most common situations where stealth is useful, someone with Invisibility is a lot better; he's so much better, in fact, that characters with high stealth skills are basically better off to not even try using them, and instead ask for an Invis as well.

The cause of that imbalance is simple and obvious: the Invisibility spell allows you to keep moving quickly, especially because you can still jump. Look at a thin corridor packed tightly with Orthons in Sins of Attrition: it's literally impossible to get by in Sneak mode, but Invisibility means you can bounce right over the group.

Here are three ways to rectify this imbalance. All have been suggested before, but they are more important now that Invisibility has gotten so much stronger.

Suggestion 1
Characters are allowed to use Jump and Tumble while in Sneak mode. To do so causes a brief -10 penalty on all involved skills (meaning that if someone wants to Sneak-Tumble, he'll need 10 more points in Tumble, Hide, and Move Silently than if he were doing those actions separately)

Suggestion 2
Allow any character to attempt sneaking more quickly, with a penalty to Hide and Move Silently. How this can work is that Rogues gain bonus feats at levels 2, 4, and 6 for Sneak Faster I-III, and other characters can learn them by paying a small fee to a Rogue trainer.
Using those feats in place of the usual "Sneak" icon causes you to sneak at a higher speed, with a commeasurate penalty to skills. Sneak Faster III would have the biggest penalty, but let you move at 100% of running speed.

Additionally, the Faster Sneaking enhancements would be replaced with Improved Faster Sneaking, which reduce the skill penalties for sneaking quickly.

Suggestion 3
Allow sneaking characters to intentionally make noise. This can be an active feat taught at any Rogue trainer for a minor fee. Note that since the current DDO stealth rules lack this, there is the perverse result where a character with excessively high skills can be worse at sneaking, since he has no way to attract a monster to follow him without dropping stealth mode.

[Ghoste]

Reading your post gives me the impression that you didn't understand how the stealth mechanics were working before, nor do you understand how they work now. Good luck with your suggestions though.

[MrCow]

In EU update 0 ("mod 10"), the Invisibility spell was seriously strengthened because monsters no longer really aggro when you run close by them.

Actually, module 9. It was slightly toned down in update 1 to where monsters can now make a slowly climbing spot check that will pierce through the invisibility again.

Also, someone in previous modules (0 through 8) could achieve what is currently done with invisibility so long as they had a good hide skill vs. the monster while invisible. The technique is nothing new, just the fact that you don't need a hide skill in conjunction with invisibility to do so now.

Suggestion 1
Characters are allowed to use Jump and Tumble while in Sneak mode. To do so causes a brief -10 penalty on all involved skills (meaning that if someone wants to Sneak-Tumble, he'll need 10 more points in Tumble, Hide, and Move Silently than if he were doing those actions separately)

I would absolutely love something like this.

[Angelus_dead]

Reading your post gives me the impression that you didn't understand how the stealth mechanics were working before, nor do you understand how they work now.

What is your native language?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Reading your post gives me the impression that you didn't understand how the stealth mechanics were working before, nor do you understand how they work now. Good luck with your suggestions though.

Well, I now understand where that last video came from..lol.

But they keep changing things so often, or so it seems, that I'm not sure what works right now and what doesn't. (especially with Invisibility)

But....Invis pots and clickies can be used by anyone. Pots are actually very powerful, as they do not break stealth.

Scrolls are relatively easy to UMD.

So there are means for many stealth users to use both as appropriate.

Wouldn't mind some game changes to beef it up more though.

Was it Mr. Cow or Ghoste? One of you used a Chattering ring to make noise while sneaking....brilliant!
Putting on a hide item and taking off a MS item could work sometimes.

Anyway, it could always use help, and IMO is broken.
Although many broken things in DDO are actually quite useful. And even powerful in the right hands.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

It does bother me that a stealthy Wizard is more capable of "sneaking' through a quest than a Rogue.

But then magic should be more powerful than skill anyway.

But both have uses. Both complement each other.
Invisibility alone is not nealy as good as Invisibility and stealth together.

Faster sneaking however, makes a Rogue very powerful. Especially an Assassin.
And any good rogue build should include UMD, so at least some of magic tricks can be accomplished by them as well.

Perhaps it's the sneaky Rgr who is really at a disadvantage in DDO. As he has less access to Invisibility to aid him. But there are options for him as well.

I do think the sneaky Wizard has the most going for him.

But not because of Invisibility.

[Angelus_dead]

But then magic should be more powerful than skill anyway.

That is true in many contexts... but it is not supposed to be true within the games of either D&D or DDO.

According to the official D&D design objectives, two player characters of the same level are supposed to contribute to the party's success in similar amounts. But D&D fell far from reaching that goal, because the designers repeatedly made the mistake of prioritizing verisimilitude over balance. They fell into the trap of going along with the conventional saying "It's magic so it's better", which leads away from what they were supposed to be doing.

[Ghoste]

What is your native language?

My native language? That would be Stealth.

[Kaervas]

I'd love to be able to Jump or Tumble while stealthed.

Tumble isn't so important (unless they allow tumbling through occupied squares) but Jumping would be very nice since there are a lot of little bumps and elevated rises which don't seem to trigger the automatic climb in stealth mode, I'm not sure how to get on to those without disabling stealth. (If anyone knows a way, enlighten me please!)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

That is true in many contexts... but it is not supposed to be true within the games of either D&D or DDO.

According to the official D&D design objectives, two player characters of the same level are supposed to contribute to the party's success in similar amounts. But D&D fell far from reaching that goal, because the designers repeatedly made the mistake of prioritizing verisimilitude over balance. They fell into the trap of going along with the conventional saying "It's magic so it's better", which leads away from what they were supposed to be doing.

I think DDO is more balanced between the classes than PnP.

High lvl casters have always been more powerful.
In DDO at least they made saves so tough that melees are still needed.

But I do think that chars of the same lvl should be of similar power and ability.
Just in different ways.

But a camflaged marine sniper may be hard to detect, but a magically Invisible one would be impossible to see.

And as soon as you move, the one hiding by natural skill is at a big disadvantage.

Now...MS is another story. Since we have no silence spell.

But human(oid) beings are not bats or dolphins. We don't have sonar.
We cannot tell exactly location easily by sound alone.

But Intelligent beings will develop tactics to deal with it.
And in a fantasy world, develop magic to deal with it.

As soon as a guard has a magical means to see Invisible creatures, then the guy relying on Invisiblity is useless.

But the guy using his own skill is still hidden.

So I say, make monsters and dungeons smarter.
But also fix the stupid things about stealthy tactics currently in game. (monsters aren't bats or dolphins either...that stupid sonar attack thing really upsets me.
And stairs, .....doors and levers upsets me too, but thanks to Ghoste I can deal with those)

[Chaosprism]

Undead are not supposed to be tricked by hiding or invisibility at all, as they're meant to have "life sense" they dont have eyes to see , so why would anything visual confound their senses? (also why does glitterdust blind them?)

Clerics had an "invisibility to undead" spell in pnp.



Seeing invisibility or true seeing is one thing, tremor sense from an ooze or scorpion is quite another way to "see". But you'd need a silence spell to become undetectable by those.

but getting through undetectable by all mobs would make the game very boring and trivial.

I'd like to see casters having heard something, then cast "see invisibility" or "true seeing" to see if something invisible is about.

p.s. and also casting an area of effect spell like fireball into the vague vicinity of an area where you "heard somebody but couldnt see them" seems like a fine tactic for a high intelligence caster.



As for mobs hiding, they should move at reduced rates like players do. Them being an AI object is no excuse for having them run at you while supposedly sneaking.

[Jiipster]

Undead are not supposed to be tricked by hiding or invisibility at all, as they're meant to have "life sense" they dont have eyes to see , so why would anything visual confound their senses?

Bzzzt. In 3.5 at least, normal undead have no such rule.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Undead are not supposed to be tricked by hiding or invisibility at all, as they're meant to have "life sense" they dont have eyes to see , so why would anything visual confound their senses? (also why does glitterdust blind them?)

Clerics had an "invisibility to undead" spell in pnp.



Seeing invisibility or true seeing is one thing, tremor sense from an ooze or scorpion is quite another way to "see". But you'd need a silence spell to become undetectable by those.

but getting through undetectable by all mobs would make the game very boring and trivial.

I'd like to see casters having heard something, then cast "see invisibility" or "true seeing" to see if something invisible is about.

p.s. and also casting an area of effect spell like fireball into the vague vicinity of an area where you "heard somebody but couldnt see them" seems like a fine tactic for a high intelligence caster.



As for mobs hiding, they should move at reduced rates like players do. Them being an AI object is no excuse for having them run at you while supposedly sneaking.

In 3.5 it is very well defined which monsters have which traits.

If I remember correctly, most undead do not have life sense.
But there are some differences in DDO.

For instance, I could swear that all undead were immune to cold in 3.5. But not so in DDO.

Some undead in DDO do have life sense. Dread Wraiths in the Orchard for instance.

But I just love looting the chest in one of the first Necro crypts, right next to the named wraith. (Shrouded Terror?)

That should be on the R.O.G.U.E. challenge list IMO.
Not that I ever document my acomplishements to qualify.
(he should allow non-rogues too IMO )

[Turial]

....
Suggestion 2
Allow any character to attempt sneaking more quickly, with a penalty to Hide and Move Silently. How this can work is that Rogues gain bonus feats at levels 2, 4, and 6 for Sneak Faster I-III, and other characters can learn them by paying a small fee to a Rogue trainer.
Using those feats in place of the usual "Sneak" icon causes you to sneak at a higher speed, with a commeasurate penalty to skills. Sneak Faster III would have the biggest penalty, but let you move at 100% of running speed.

Additionally, the Faster Sneaking enhancements would be replaced with Improved Faster Sneaking, which reduce the skill penalties for sneaking quickly......

I think anyone who has hide and move silently as a class skill should have access to Sneak Faster enhancements. Add additional tiers until the character can move at full tilt in sneak mode.

I do like the option of faster sneaking as a feat option from the sneak feat with the penalties associated with each increment of faster movement.