Fix Invisibility

[Aspenor]

Invisibility
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2, Trickery 2
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal or touch
Target: You or a creature or object weighing
no more than 100 lb./level
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) or
Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) or Yes
(harmless, object)
The creature or object touched becomes invisible, vanishing from sight, even from darkvision. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too. If you cast the spell on someone else, neither you nor your allies can see the subject, unless you can normally see invisible things or you employ magic to do so.
Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible, such as a trailing rope.
Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as stepping in a puddle). The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.)
Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.
See Table 8–5: Attack Roll Modifiers
and Table 8–6: Armor Class Modifiers,
page 151, for the effects of invisibility on
combat.
Invisibility can be made permanent (on
objects only) with a permanency spell.
Arcane Material Component: An eyelash
encased in a bit of gum arabic.

Thanks.

[Memnir]

Agreed.
I also think that Stealth should not break when using a lever or opening a door.

The AI code exists for monsters to "hear" breaking objects and other noises that attract their attention. I've thought for a while that doors should be treated as such. This way, sneaking would be harder - but not impossible - because the monsters would be more alert.

Perhaps hit Hide and Move Silently with a large penalty when interacting with an object, say -15 for 20 seconds. But, there is little reason, beyond the Devs making a lazy "fix", to have ever made Invis and Stealth break upon opening a door or flipping a lever.

[Aspenor]

Oh, and I definitely shouldn't break invisibility when using the Vile Blasphemy clickie.

[Angelus_dead]

In what way would it be desirable to make Invisibility more powerful?

[Aspenor]

In what way would it be desirable to make Invisibility more powerful?

In what way would it be undesirable?

Suggestion #2: Add Greater Invisibility to DDO.

[Depravity]

Agreed.
I also think that Stealth should not break when using a lever or opening a door.

The AI code exists for monsters to "hear" breaking objects and other noises that attract their attention. I've thought for a while that doors should be treated as such. This way, sneaking would be harder - but not impossible - because the monsters would be more alert.

Perhaps hit Hide and Move Silently with a large penalty when interacting with an object, say -15 for 20 seconds. But, there is little reason, beyond the Devs making a lazy "fix", to have ever made Invis and Stealth break upon opening a door or flipping a lever.

I've thought about that, and thought about that, and thought, etc etc etc. Good long hard think, and I have to say I can no longer support the "noisy door" thing.

Basically, I spend a lot of time stealthed, as most of my characters are stealth capable. A very very regular occurrence is a group of critters hovering over a lever or door and "nailed" there (if they are drawn away and not aggro'd they return to their assigned post). Meaning I have to squeeze in past them and open the door right behind their backs.
If that door/lever made noise, I would be found out, pretty much instantaneously. As opposed to currently, where player skill at mob wrangling counts for something, in that learning how the AI behaves gives you a strong advantage when sneaking about.

In my opinion, learning how to "set up the room" is, and should be, an integral part of stealth activities. Giving new stealthers an "easy button" on levers and doors lessens the reward for mastering a skillset.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

recitation breaks invis too, even thought that does not confer any debuffs and isn't an offensive spell at all.

If haste doesn't break invis then recitation shouldn't either.

Garth

[Angelus_dead]

In what way would it be undesirable?

I shouldn't need to answer that.

It is obviously a bad idea to enable and encourage more and more players to run around and jump over piles of enemies on the way to their objectives.

[Aspenor]

I shouldn't need to answer that.

It is obviously a bad idea to enable and encourage more and more players to run around and jump over piles of enemies on the way to their objectives.

Red Alert should be a goal and challenge meant to be overcome.

[knightgf]

Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack#, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge*, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs**, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.^

#Of course, we can't do that in DDO:EU...

*Oh if only I could have done that in The Quickfoot Hideout, or other quests with those kind of bridges...

**Again, if only I could do this in Bringing the Light, where I could release the attack dogs to attack the guards.

^Now why the heck does that make me visible in-game, even when it doesnt affect my enemies?

Sadly, most of the things we do on here isint allowed per the rules of the handbook...

[Riorik]

I'd go with Aspenor on this one. What's fundamentally wrong with adding options and variety to how to play the game. Multiple paths to success rock! One dimensional...deliver a beatdown only for Red & Purple named enemies is just boring.

It's really likely that the currently implementation was just a half-azzed implementation. Whether or not it was later determined to be working as intended or just plain...this is how it's going to be, doesn't really change that it was a half-azzed implementation.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

In what way would it be undesirable?

Suggestion #2: Add Greater Invisibility to DDO.

Agreed on all points.

I shouldn't need to answer that.

It is obviously a bad idea to enable and encourage more and more players to run around and jump over piles of enemies on the way to their objectives.

Nothing obvious about it. Stealth and avoidance SHOULD be an option in this game.

[mediocresurgeon]

It is obviously a bad idea to enable and encourage more and more players to run around and jump over piles of enemies on the way to their objectives.

I disagree with you strongly on this point. And for anyone who points to Dungeon Alert as evidence that the Devs back them on this, I would like to remind everyone that Dungeon Alert was implemented to cut down on lag, not to prevent players from bypassing trash mobs.

Stealth, if done correctly, means that the mobs never aggro you. Which means that sneaking past groups of enemies doesn't create lag, so it doesn't create any problems. Everyone wins!

[Angelus_dead]

I would like to remind everyone that Dungeon Alert was implemented to cut down on lag, not to prevent players from bypassing trash mobs.

I doubt I need to refute that.

Stealth, if done correctly, means that the mobs never aggro you. Which means that sneaking past groups of enemies doesn't create lag, so it doesn't create any problems.

Do you honestly believe that?

[Ghoste]

/signed for both recommendations.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Do you honestly believe that?

Only if you believe what the devs specifically told us on that very subject.

[Angelus_dead]

Recommendation #3: stop feeding the troll.

But you are the one trolling...

[Angelus_dead]

Have any of the numerous people in favor of massively buffing Invisibility stealth thought through what that would actually do?

Think of an invis run of Sins or New Invasion, and then imagine every single quest is like that.

EDIT: Ok, I'll help out with the results. A few months later when the developers notice "Hey, all our quests are stupid invis-runs now", they buff 50% of all mobs above level 10 with See Invisibility, and you guys can no longer use Invisibility ever again.

[MrCow]

Have any of the numerous people in favor of massively buffing Invisibility stealth thought through what that would actually do?

Think of an invis run of Sins or New Invasion, and then imagine every single quest is like that.

Sins of Attrition isn't a great example to imagine because it only has 2 doors (3 levers) that require you to open, both of which the person is likely to be spotted before they get to the door due to the narrow halls.

I do agree somewhat with A New Invasion (second floor) in that it would allow someone to get through mostly unscathed providing they don't have spiders on that floor or the beholder who can see through some walls.

Ok, I'll help out with the results. A few months later when the developers notice "Hey, all our quests are stupid invis-runs now", they buff 50% of all mobs above level 10 with See Invisibility, and you guys can no longer use Invisibility ever again.

This was among my biggest dislike of the Reaver's Refuge quests. They were packed with see invisible things.

[Ghoste]

Sins of Attrition isn't a great example to imagine because it only has 2 doors (3 levers) that require you to open, both of which the person is likely to be spotted before they get to the door due to the narrow halls.

Sins of Attrition is actually quite easy to sneak through. The hallways are narrow, but not so narrow that if the devils are all huddled up on one side you can't sneak by on the other. Making noise where you want them to huddle up works great for herding them right where you want them. Bunch of cattle...