Dex Sorcerer or Wizard

[Xanndros]

I constantly hear recommendations by DDO players to take Con over Dex for a caster. Having played Pen and Paper for so long and having always had more Dex than Con with my Wizards and Sorcerers, I absolutely had to get all the information first.

A common argument against Dex casters is the non-existence of the Ranged Touch Attack. Also, the Reflex save gained from the Dex only assists Sorcerers. (Assuming the Wizard takes Insightful Reflexes)

The _most_ common argument that I hear is that Wizards and Sorcerers will not get enough AC at higher levels to matter, so there is no point in wasting points in Dex. This is where I disagree...

32-Point Starting Stats: (Elf or Human)
Str - 8
Dex - 16
Con - 14
Int - (18 for Wizard, 8 for Sorcerer)
Wis - 8
Cha - (8 for Wizard, 18 for Sorcerer)

You'll get up to 24 Dex by level 20 through Dex equipment and/or a Tome (26 for Elf with Dex enhancements). Cat's Grace can supplement your Dex at lower levels if you so desire.

Armour Bonus:
+5 Mithral Chain Shirt w/ Ritual - 10 AC, Max Dex Bonus 6 (For the Elf option, as you'll need Elven Arcane Fluidity enhancements for 0 Arcane Spell Failure)
OR
Icy Raiments w/ Ritual - 5 AC
Amored Bracers - 8 AC (Superior to the armoured option, but harder to obtain)


Shield Bonus:
Shield Spell - 4 AC
OR
+5 Light Mithral Shield w/ Ritual - 7 AC (More than the spell but takes up your off-hand)

Dodge Bonus:
Dodge Feat - 1 AC
Chattering Ring - 3 AC

Deflection: 5 AC (Protection)

Nautral Armor: 5 AC (Barkskin)

Insight: 4 AC (Shroud Crafted)

The total? Up to 55 (56 for elf)

After adding Displacement and Stoneskin, you are just a burly (if not more) than the other armoured beasts (or rangers) you'll see out there.

Wizard would probably be the better choice in this due to the extra feats.


~Xanndros


Note: You will not need to take proficiency with armour or shields unless you intend on using a weapon for damage, but the painfully low BAB of Wizards and Sorcerers makes this an increasingly worse idea the higher you get in level.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Note: You will not need to take proficiency with armour or shields unless you intend on using a weapon for damage, but the painfully low BAB of Wizards and Sorcerers makes this an increasingly worse idea the higher you get in level.[/QUOTE]

By level 10 in this game you will only be missed on a 1 with a 32AC, that is worthless. By L12-14 you will need 40-50 AC MINIMUM be be worth anything. By L16 if you don't have 60 you might as well have AC=10.

That explain it to you?

[Phidius]

The point many others will make, however, is that 32 (or 42 with Prot +5 and Barkskin +5) is going to be exactly the same as an AC of 10 in quests past level 9 or so.

A caster can get their AC to the point where it matters... it's just that some people say the value returned is not worth the price you must pay.

[Individual]

With items like Concoordiant Opposistion and the Torc in game, casters are typically much better off taking damage in higher level content, rather than gunning for Ac.

[Phidius]

With items like Concoordiant Opposistion and the Torc in game, casters are typically much better off taking damage in higher level content, rather than gunning for Ac.

It sure seems to me like they both proc on a grazing hit. If you're WF, I'd agree with a lesser need for AC.


I get it anyway.

[Xanndros]

By level 10 in this game you will only be missed on a 1 with a 32AC, that is worthless. By L12-14 you will need 40-50 AC MINIMUM be be worth anything. By L16 if you don't have 60 you might as well have AC=10.

What exactly do the higher AC classes use for more AC that Wizard or Sorcerer can't?


~Xanndros

[sephiroth1084]

All of that effort gear-, stat- and enhancement-wise, and you will still be getting hit on a 2 or higher from around level 14 onward, and will be getting hit fairly often (around 50% of the time probably, more or less depending on quest level and type of monsters) from around level 6 or 8 onward.

You won't get even mid-30s AC until around level 12 or so probably, and stuff in that range will hit AC 30. In Gianthold, stuff will hit AC 40, though not very frequently, and when you reach The Vale, stuff will be hitting AC 50 and 60. Once you go beyond that, some things will be hitting AC 70 as well.

My archery-specc'ed ranger can get up to around 44 AC with buffs (maybe a little higher--I hardly pay attention), and I can't recall seeing anything miss me more than approximately 5% of the time (rolling a 1).

On my wizard, I didn't bother with AC, but keep up common arcane defensive buffs, and keep moving, and I do fine. In fact, with Displacement and Stoneskin, I often wade into melee against some of the less-hard hitting foes, and can sustain myself with Cure pots. On the other hand, every little bit of HP helps.

[Gadget2775]

What exactly do the higher AC classes use for more AC that Wizard or Sorcerer can't?


~Xanndros

Tower Shields, Dragon Touched Plate, PrE Enhancements, AC Enhancement, Tower Shield Enhancements...Just a couple of things most casters aren't going to be running around in.

It's possible with the right gear to push a casters AC into usuable range, but you really need to put some work into it. Even then you're more likely to be at a usuable (not good) AC. And I don't think it's possible to match an AC centric tank.

[Xanndros]

What do Rangers and Rogues use for such high AC or are they just as SOL as Wizards and Sorcerers in this system?


~Xanndros

[sephiroth1084]

What exactly do the higher AC classes use for more AC that Wizard or Sorcerer can't?


~Xanndros

Tower Shields (+3 AC over light shield), Dragon Touched Plate (+9 AC over mithral chain), PrE Enhancements (up to about +3), AC Enhancement (Paladin Bulwark of Good goes up to +6, though this is sharable), Tower Shield Enhancements...Just a couple of things most casters aren't going to be running around in.

It's possible with the right gear to push a casters AC into usuable range, but you really need to put some work into it. Even then you're more likely to be at a usuable (not good) AC. And I don't think it's possible to match an AC centric tank.

Also:
Chattering Ring (+3)
Shroud Insight on weapon (+4)
Chaosgardes (+2)
Combat Expertise (+5) - absolutely not usable by anyone planning on casting often

The problem is, that while casters can obtain and wear all of this equipment, you will be hampering your casting ability dramatically! There just doesn't end up being enough room on a caster to equip many caster-centric novelty items, let alone a handful of items that do absolutely nothing for your casting ability.

Let's look at the max AC a caster could achieve:
10 base
+8 bracers
+7 Light Mithral Shield w/ritual
+5 Icy Raiments w/ritual
+3 Chattering Ring
+4 Shroud Insight on weapon
+1 Dodge
+1 Haste
+5 Bark
+5 Protection
+10 Dex (16 base +6 item, +3 tome, +2 enhancement, +3 exceptional on ring)
_________
59
can increase by up to 12 more w/ bard, cleric and paladin at hand

Now, that is very respectable, but you have occupied both hands, both rings, your armor, bracers, a slot for Dex and a slot for Protection, leaving you with very few places to fit anything caster related. You have also spent 1 feat, 6 build points (as an elf) and 6 AP on stuff that is completely unrelated to casting.

After all this, you have Head, Eyes, Neck, Belt, Boots, Trinket and Cloak left available, but still need to fit in +6 Con, +6 Int, Concentration and Potency as necessities. Ideally, you also want Greater False Life, maybe a Shroud +45 HP item, at least a Wizardy VI item (swappable so no biggie here), and a Heavy Fortification item. You can condense slot usage a tiny bit with Shroud and Shavarath gear, but not by much, and you still miss out on the most powerful/useful caster items.

Is it doable? Sure, but you lose out on many of the ways available to enhance your primary ability--casting spells. And what do you gain for it? You won't be able to melee worth a ****, because your weapon won't be of the DPS sort and can't fit a +6 Str item in anywhere realistically, and you still have very few HP, which means that the monsters who do hit hard when they land an attack will be taking big chunks out of your HP.

Ultimately, just using your own defensive buffs, playing smart, and staying away from monsters, staying mobile, should be sufficient in keeping you alive and well.

[sephiroth1084]

What do Rangers and Rogues use for such high AC or are they just as SOL as Wizards and Sorcerers in this system?


~Xanndros

Usually a higher Dex and a Monk splash for Wis to AC (without the Wis, even rangers and rogues tend to forfeit AC).

[ddoer]

i'm probably in position to comment on Ac for sorc because I am rolling a monk-splash dex-based one. In level 11, it could self-buff to 37. With no tome, no shield, no dodge/combat expertise feats, the AC breakdown is as follows:

10 base
07 dex-bonus, Dex: 17 base + 1 feat + 6 RR item = 24 (+7), +1 AC if I got a dex tome
05 armor bonus from bracer, a RR one could give +1 more
04 Shield spell
03 natural armor bonus, +2 AC more for ranger bark
05 deflection bonus for a RR protection +5 item, -1 if no RR
01 haste/dodge bonus
01 centered bonus
01 wisdom bonus - base 8 + 4 = 12 (+1), if i have a RR +6, and +2 tome, it's a wis of 16, and +3 AC
-----------------
37 The standing AC could be 41 with better gears and tome, 44 with chatter ring.
04 mobility+tumbling
02 defensive stance
-----------------
43 [edited]

so far, i would say the AC is very useful when I solo lower level quest (quest lower than my current level), and it helps a lot to save plats for CSW pots. For higher level quest, such as in gianthold, It helps but won't make me untouchable. e.g. i just went to TBF normal (level 13) to test with the first two trolls, with 37 AC, it misses me by around 40%.

It's ok to get a higher dex for reflex save, but i don't really recommend any pure sorc build to go for AC. Maintaining a high enough AC is too costly. It means you have to give up some gears for boosting your casting power which is more important. Using feat for AC is simply not an option for sorc.

[Xanndros]

@ddoer - Thank you very much for your input. I will definitely integrate your information into my planning.

I had hoped the differences between DDO and PnP would ruin my love for the Dex mage. Knowing there is hope for it means a lot to me.


~Xanndros

[ddoer]

@ddoer - Thank you very much for your input. I will definitely integrate your information into my planning.

I had hoped the differences between DDO and PnP would ruin my love for the Dex mage. Knowing there is hope for it means a lot to me.


~Xanndros

as mentioned above, even though you can't get meaningful AC, getting a better Dex for reflex save does no harm. In some quests, such as DQ2 epic, there is no option to neglect reflex save, imho.

Armour Bonus:
+5 Mithral Chain Shirt - 9 AC, Max Dex Bonus 6 (For the Elf option, as you'll need Elven Arcane Fluidity enhancements for 0 Arcane Spell Failure)
OR
Black Widow Bracers - 4 AC (Not as effective as the Armoured method, but the best you can get if you _must_ be Human or just can't live with wearing armour)

Mithral Chain shirt should give 10% ASF, and you need the 3rd level elf arcane fluidity to get rid of it completely, and that costs a total of 12 action points. It is simply not an option for a sorc.

There are Twilight Mirthral armor exist in the game that gives 5% ASF only. However, the chance of getting a useful one is perhaps 100 times more difficult than getting Icy Raiment.

Without armor, you could use armor bracer, that gives up to +8 AC for racial restricted or +7 for normal ones.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

It's ok to get a higher dex for reflex save, but i don't really recommend any pure sorc build to go for AC. Maintaining a high enough AC is too costly. It means you have to give up some gears for boosting your casting power which is more important. Using feat for AC is simply not an option for sorc.

.
As you point out, that's a 50% hit rate on normal. On elite I don't imagine you will fair as well. In the Shav...They will cut through you.

Your final assessment there is dead on...

[ddoer]

e.g. i just went to TBF normal (level 13) to test with the first two trolls, with 37 AC, it misses me by around 40%.

.
As you point out, that's a 50% hit rate on normal. On elite I don't imagine you will fair as well. In the Shav...They will cut through you.

Your final assessment there is dead on...

I'll make my final assessment when my monk-splash sorc is level'd to 20. Right now, I doubt if I'll boost its AC to around 60 in end game because of the limitation in gear slots.


My previous post about AC breakdown didn't mention about using shield. In fact, I don't use a shield for AC and only carry one with negative energy spike (2d6 dmg on hit), together with a fire guard outfit (1d8 dmg on hit), for adding damage when doing melee. (btw, my build uses weapon finesse as the 2nd monk feat)

Tower shield limits dex bonus so i presume it is not an option.

If I use a +5 Heavy Mithral Shield (5% ASF), the change in AC will be:
-01 wisdom bonus
-01 center bonus
+03 over Shield spell

The actual benefit is just +1 AC when using shield. And the bonus will be eliminated if I eat a +2 wisdom tome. The only reason to use a shield is damage reduction in shield blocking.


It's very funny to run a sorc with evasion, high reflex save, and with meaningful AC (in my current level).

p.s. my prev AC break down is modified to include mobility and tumbling

[Arctigis]

The only valid argument on Dex on a pureclass sorc is for increased reflex save and balance. i.e. Drow,
starting with base 16 dex, then 2 from APs gives +5 reflex/balance over your typical WF Sorc(8). It's also helps
AC in the lower levels but you shouldn't factor that into your decision unless you are planning to spend a
long time below L10.

A Wiz should just take insightful reflexes and get a balance item (same as WF Sorc).

[zooble]

Note: You will not need to take proficiency with armour or shields unless you intend on using a weapon for damage, but the painfully low BAB of Wizards and Sorcerers makes this an increasingly worse idea the higher you get in level.

By level 10 in this game you will only be missed on a 1 with a 32AC, that is worthless. By L12-14 you will need 40-50 AC MINIMUM be be worth anything. By L16 if you don't have 60 you might as well have AC=10.

That explain it to you?

i don't believe that to be true for 100% of situations... not that i'm trying to promote armoured sorcs or anything... i'm just saying its not useless.

1stly lets assume those #s are correct.

you make the assumption that people do dungeons at or earlier than their level and ONLY that. ie: level 12 doing a level 12 dungeon on elite

it is perfectly viable to level in a dungeon at -4 of your level and i do it frequently soloing or when i'm trying to 'save' certain areas or dungeons for later. as such their to-hit is lower than what you'd normally see for your level and you will see more 'misses'

it also assumes you are even doing it even remotely in the exp range... people still run VON at 20 for loot(eg: shadowblade) and thats what a 9-11 dungeon/raid? VON isn't the only 'low level' dungeon people run either.

it also disregards curses/maledroit/weakening/wave of exhaustion etc

not everyone cares about the 10-30 minutes people spend fighting that level 20 purple named guy 1-2x/week

having said all of the above i 'frequently' see misses on my non ar specced char and i often count on them to open doors/chests/levers while being attacked... eg: displacement, 0, displacement, miss, displacement... voila chest opened. eg: offering of blood loot/xp run.
being in the 'ac range' every ac pt extra (up to a certain amount) is worth about 5% damage reduction (around 2.5% with displacement) which isn't small in my books.

it might not be the difference between standing there and afking surrounded by 20 mobs and coming back still alive vs dead... but its faster/easier with it... just like every other type of gear that will help your class 1 way or another.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

While I like my Dex Wiz, I have been finally convinced that a con Wiz is a better DDO choice.......with the exception of stealth.

And a stealth Sor is so hard to pull off. But the Sor doesn't have the Insightful Ref feat option.

When I made my Wiz it was a different game....way back then.

I do still like high Dex chars though.

But Insightful Reflexes really limits the benefits a Wiz can get from Dex.

Wizards cannot get enough AC to matter much at higher lvls.
Although it does make doing favor quests easier.
And benefits low lvl Wizards.

[oogly54]

Coming from someone who has a level 20 Dex based Sorcerer, I foresee reincarnation in your future.

Cheers!