The Cannon Fodder Tank, The Kensai/Stalwart Build

[Deusxmachina]

i was operating off your numbers.

Ok. I was operating more off "After playing many different types of builds there are very few feats I consider must haves, but for melees I consider PA a must have."

[Chai]

Yeah I swear by PA too. There are too many situations where I am already hitting on a 2 or better and I am not tanking to not invest in it.

Its usually auto on right after I log in up until I use CE.

[Quikster]

Ok. I was operating more off "After playing many different types of builds there are very few feats I consider must haves, but for melees I consider PA a must have."

And i still do, you asked what do you do with an 84 CE ac. I said turn it off and turn on PA. You mentioned the to hit penalty and my point was, there is no to hit penalty for using PA over CE.

The fact of the matter is a SD ac build suffers terribly in the dps category. I know, I know, I have seen Mr. Wizzards sustaned dps argument. But in reality I can make a twf with 10% alacrity, that can raid buff to 80 (twf) but still dish out serious hurt (240+crits w/khopesh) when called for. Thats a 32 point build with less gear grinding than an ac tank.

I dont subscribe to the dps is the only way to win theory, but on a fighter with so many feats, I see no reason to not have/use PA often. In epic you either use weighted to stun, or picks to crit stunned mobs, PA makes a huge difference with auto crit mobs using picks. I need 70 tokens just to do my armor, I think over the course of 70 epic quests that +5 from PA adds up to a significant amount of damage. Then I need to upgrade my belt, then gloves, then helm, then.... I rarely turn on CE unless im actually tanking or running short or with no healer. Other than that I find that having CE on is usually adding to the time needed to complete.

In no way am I advocating to drop CE, this is my 5th build that can break 80 ac, and my 2nd that can break 90. I fully appreciate the value of having that extra +5. But in a game so focused on dps, I cannot understand how you can rationalize that +3 dr or having a higher crit range on piercing weapons is more important than +5 to every hit. What exactly does having a higher crit range for piercing weapons get you at end game that is better than +5 to every hit?

[MrWizard]

again true...which is why the feats section goes over the dropping of pierce and such.

If you only play with your guild or good groups, that is probably a reason you can go without CE on all the time.

I pug a lot for the challenge and to meet new players. Sometimes the groups are steller, sometimes I end up tanking part 4 or 5 of the shroud by myself. I need the DR and the CE.

I find it really depends on your level and feat swapping at certain points is good. But it depends not just on your level, but on your level of play. And gear is something else too.

CE adds +3 over the +2 of def fighting. If you have a chattering ring, which I do not, means you could be at the same AC without CE feat. I cannot do that yet.

If you have some epic item which pops up AC somewhere or somehow, same argument.

Imp crit piercing was awesome cool for my build with banishing rapiers. Once capped, I barely use them. Infact, now capped I barely use banishers, vorpals, smiters, and rarely ever a disruptor. I just use my greensteel khopeshes or a special weapon set.

So, yes, at a different time one should swap out feats for more dps. But a new player should follow this a bit to give the diversity on leveling to make them good. One banishing rapier with improved crit, in my opinion, is far more powerful in the vale devil side than any dps.


I tired to add notes on changing feats. And PA was definitely one to look at when you could switch to it.

However, a SD will never get that extra crit multiplier, those extra crit threat ranges, and none of those barb/kensai damage enhancements and modifiers to get into the 200s without epic help.

Without PA I think the best swing I have done one handed was 180. With power attack that would be 195. I think a tier II kensai could beat that while laughing at my 20th level ac tank.

But my ac tank will be carrying him to the shrine after he dies....


Next up, I am going to design a dwarf SD since they do get some nice damage mods. I think PA would be nice on him early on.

[Quikster]

again true...which is why the feats section goes over the dropping of pierce and such.

If you only play with your guild or good groups, that is probably a reason you can go without CE on all the time.

I pug a lot for the challenge and to meet new players. Sometimes the groups are steller, sometimes I end up tanking part 4 or 5 of the shroud by myself. I need the DR and the CE.

I find it really depends on your level and feat swapping at certain points is good. But it depends not just on your level, but on your level of play. And gear is something else too.

CE adds +3 over the +2 of def fighting. If you have a chattering ring, which I do not, means you could be at the same AC without CE feat. I cannot do that yet.

If you have some epic item which pops up AC somewhere or somehow, same argument.

Imp crit piercing was awesome cool for my build with banishing rapiers. Once capped, I barely use them. Infact, now capped I barely use banishers, vorpals, smiters, and rarely ever a disruptor. I just use my greensteel khopeshes or a special weapon set.

So, yes, at a different time one should swap out feats for more dps. But a new player should follow this a bit to give the diversity on leveling to make them good. One banishing rapier with improved crit, in my opinion, is far more powerful in the vale devil side than any dps.


I tired to add notes on changing feats. And PA was definitely one to look at when you could switch to it.

However, a SD will never get that extra crit multiplier, those extra crit threat ranges, and none of those barb/kensai damage enhancements and modifiers to get into the 200s without epic help.

Without PA I think the best swing I have done one handed was 180. With power attack that would be 195. I think a tier II kensai could beat that while laughing at my 20th level ac tank.

But my ac tank will be carrying him to the shrine after he dies....


Next up, I am going to design a dwarf SD since they do get some nice damage mods. I think PA would be nice on him early on.

Yes, its only +5, but on a khopesh, thats a lot of +15's.

Look Im not trying to say this build sucks, or anything like that. I think you have captured a lot of peoples attn with it, as I see you are quoted around the boards all the time. I think you do a disservice to a lot of people with downplaying PA.

As stated yourself, you rarely use banishers. While banishers are a nice toy at lvl 16, they should be banked at 20, anything that can be banished at that point, can be taken down in a reasonable amount of time with greensteel.

Im not sure of the state of pugs on Thelanis, but they are not so bad on Sarlona that I need to have +5 ac all the time. Most pug raids have 2-3 healers in them. 5-15 damage per swing when getting mass healed is big. Having enough ac to mitigate harrys melee damage isnt that difficult with raid buffs, so most of the damage one takes is from spells, which ac is meaningless against. PA would save more mana in this situation than ce.

PA vs portals adds up very quick on any build as they are noncrittable. +5 per swing is a big diff for a twf with feats.

I would tell you that PA helps solve puzzles faster in pt 3, but alas, it doesnt.

Its not really about guild raids and what not, in most guild raids my ac needs to be higher as we are either doing h/e as opposed to most pugs normal, or we are running with a single cleric, or no cleric.

On a fighter with this many feats, there simply isnt a reason not to have it. Im not referring to your OP so much as some of the responses since. And now that you seem to have so many fans, whenever I disagree with you, your build seems to be the one that everyone refers to, which is fine, but really as I said, why ic pierce instead of PA (at cap) (and you addressed, i simply feel like rambling I guess )


Dwarf really isnt going to do much more damge then a human with khop except against high fort mobs. They can get a higher MDB though for more ac. I have a guildie that has a top notch dwarven defender. Lots of fun to run with him. He has a few more points of ac than my fighter (mostly due to gear I think) but mine has more healing amp.

[catscan420]

Ever think of swapping Remlin's Step in for the Chaosguards, since you also get a +20% stride out of it too... then the bracers could be crafted instead? It's the same effect, just more efficient. Unless you tend to swap out feather fall boots... but there's always the Mummified Bat to help out. Just a thought, since I have Remlin's and not Chaosguard.

[MrWizard]

well, this build started out as my notes to what I was going to do, and did do to my reincarnated fighter.

It is not the only way to make a build work, nor is it the uberest way. Constant tinkering and thought goes into it from time to time.

I wonder what the high range for a SD is twf, thf, and single swing is as far as per swing?
I think I will add some to that.

It is hard to list a build, especially items and feats, since there is a vast difference between high level, cap, and fully geared, and epic geared.

I tried to list much of what i actually have with a lot of different options.

What I presented was a build that allowed just adding superior weapon focus at some point to switch between both kensai and stalwart III's to see what you like playing best.
Certainly room for PA, but I also added in the damage enhancements for +6 damage to offset it if you do not want it.

The feats section does discuss PA and many other feats and also shows consideration of dropping some feats and such. However, a perfect geared toon is different than a 'still looking' toon.

I do not have chattering ring. That plus 3 is a lot considering the number of things I have that are around that number that I wear or buff with a lot. Simply having that one item would allow me to do TWF at 3 less AC than I would be at now while shield fighting instead of 6. Add twf defense and that becomes 2.

That is very significant between going s/b or twf.
Same for someone without that +4 insight. Huge loss to make up.

This is the way I built it for this guy.



Yes, imp. crit pierce was used a lot, barely used now. Will I drop it? The post says that upon high level you should consider doing it, yes.
Same with UMD and Intimidate skill focuses.

Talks of adding dps and save feats instead.

As of now, during my play, I usually have CE on and it is noticeable when I turn it off via a magic cast. It is like I am right there at the threshold of only getting hit by 20s or getting hit a lot.


Now, PA when doing THF like on a portal with my g.construct axe sure would come in handy. I thought about it. But, the beat down of a portal was not high on the list of survival or dps for me.


For experienced players like quick, a build like this is a lot different then they would do. That is understandable. However, for newer players and those with not much experience I think this gives them a very very well rounded AC tank that they can modify as to their playstyle, even pop to kensai every 3 days if they wish.

Actually, I am thinking of dropping the imp crit pierce and picking up superior weapon focus just to play kensai for a few days...see what its like on this build.

[MrWizard]

Ever think of swapping Remlin's Step in for the Chaosguards, since you also get a +20% stride out of it too... then the bracers could be crafted instead? It's the same effect, just more efficient. Unless you tend to swap out feather fall boots... but there's always the Mummified Bat to help out. Just a thought, since I have Remlin's and not Chaosguard.

remlins is the boots right?

thought about it...

but...

1) i have resistant 5 boots.
2) I only take off my res 5 boots for tanking horoth and switch to +4 res ring.
3) need boots and ac for tanking horoth.
4) don't need any other bracers (except I use heal +15 when shrining)
5) I have never got a remlins drop.
6) res 5 boots have 20% striding and I have a 30% ring I switch to also.

[MrWizard]

I would tell you that PA helps solve puzzles faster in pt 3, but alas, it doesnt.

try telling this to ULF.....


Dwarf really isnt going to do much more damge then a human with khop except against high fort mobs. They can get a higher MDB though for more ac. I have a guildie that has a top notch dwarven defender. Lots of fun to run with him. He has a few more points of ac than my fighter (mostly due to gear I think) but mine has more healing amp.

Dwarf has some more damage enhancements with axes and such. The higher ac is a big plus too, though lots of enhancements on that.
Was gonna go barb with him, but I do not like thf that much on him and the whole barb PrE is all 'thf this' and thf that....

wish you were on thelanis man.

[MrWizard]

Look Im not trying to say this build sucks, or anything like that. I think you have captured a lot of peoples attn with it, as I see you are quoted around the boards all the time. I think you do a disservice to a lot of people with downplaying PA.

It wasn't meant to be anything more than some notes and discussion on how or why I did this or that..or changed this or that.

I tried PA for a bit lower level but found I needed CE and have not looked back.

Like you said, it matters what's going on, the situation at hand, and the player them self.

Right now the only thing I do is the raids and am usually the only intim/shield dude in there for some reason, so I usually end up looking at the end bosses <ahem> belly for the raid. So I usually use CE.

Fact is, once i get the ring and a few more +3 tomes....I am pretty much done with this toon, there is not much else to do at all. Epic seems fun, but I looked at the loot and wasn't impressed for my build.

I really just use him for raids or SINS runs now, other than that I do not do much (which is why I never use my imp crit pierce, never in dungeons that need em).



flavor was the deciding factor. I named him cannonfodder as cannon fodder is something you throw into battle first, usually overwhelmed, and decided to try to make him survivable as possible under that motif...Cannon fodder.
He could be built diff and I suggest it even. But if you want to be cannon fodder, you gotta survive more than anything.
close to retirement for this guy, just need the ring and a tome or two. Then on to next toon and retire this guy.

[Quikster]

Dwarf has some more damage enhancements with axes and such. The higher ac is a big plus too, though lots of enhancements on that.
Was gonna go barb with him, but I do not like thf that much on him and the whole barb PrE is all 'thf this' and thf that....

wish you were on thelanis man.

Yeah i have dwarves, but the enhancements dont overcome the pure pwage of the khopesh against 0 fort mobs unfortunately. Its not far off though.

It wasn't meant to be anything more than some notes and discussion on how or why I did this or that..or changed this or that.

I tried PA for a bit lower level but found I needed CE and have not looked back.

Like you said, it matters what's going on, the situation at hand, and the player them self.

Right now the only thing I do is the raids and am usually the only intim/shield dude in there for some reason, so I usually end up looking at the end bosses <ahem> belly for the raid. So I usually use CE.

Fact is, once i get the ring and a few more +3 tomes....I am pretty much done with this toon, there is not much else to do at all. Epic seems fun, but I looked at the loot and wasn't impressed for my build.

I really just use him for raids or SINS runs now, other than that I do not do much (which is why I never use my imp crit pierce, never in dungeons that need em).



flavor was the deciding factor. I named him cannonfodder as cannon fodder is something you throw into battle first, usually overwhelmed, and decided to try to make him survivable as possible under that motif...Cannon fodder.
He could be built diff and I suggest it even. But if you want to be cannon fodder, you gotta survive more than anything.
close to retirement for this guy, just need the ring and a tome or two. Then on to next toon and retire this guy.

Yeah its cool, like i said, I was never trying to knock your build, its just in many discussions people seem to be referring me to your build like I havent played/build several alts that can break the 80 mark, several even before mod 9 was released. Honestly im a little sick of telling someone they shold consider PA to be told, "well mr wizard didnt take PA on his build blah blah blah "

Its too bad you are going to retire him, the SD is a lot of fun in epic content (contrary to some comments around these boards) Theres something about watching epic Laliat pwn everyone in the group, then you step in and intimidate her. Its much more rewarding than tanking Horoth or sully imo. Also very cool to do elite hound tanking and lock her on a 1. Basically doing some of the things very few other builds can do. Hate tanking Horoth with a huge twf ac, holding your own in epic content where dps really does rule.

There are some good epic items to be had for sure, but the grind is a little out there. I mean 70 tokens just to do 1 set of armor is whacked.

[vyvy3369]

Dwarf really isnt going to do much more damge then a human with khop except against high fort mobs. They can get a higher MDB though for more ac. I have a guildie that has a top notch dwarven defender. Lots of fun to run with him. He has a few more points of ac than my fighter (mostly due to gear I think) but mine has more healing amp.

If I ever get bored enough to TR Henry again, I'm probably switching to Human, and as much as it pains me to say it, I might even consider WF for PA enhancements. I might even just go ahead and re-craft his axes as Khopeshes one of these days. Who knows, if you ever pull me the silly Red Dragon Shard I might even just go ahead and TR again :P

What does Dwarf really give a well-geared SD? Higher HPs (which I don't really need), axe enhancements (which make them only slightly worse than Khopeshes at a fairly large AP cost, although they are nice for my Min2 throwing axe), higher saves (which admittedly are nice), and cheaper armor mastery. However, against anything you can AC tank a couple points more or less of AC is almost irrelevant, and I've slowly been dropping AC in favor of things to increase DPS. No more TWD, and Dodge might be next.

To back up what Quik has been saying, the default for an SD should be DPS mode (PA instead of CE, Bloodstone instead of Head, etc.). If you're taking too much damage, start switching DPS over to defense. Start off using a shield wand, followed by CE instead of PA, and if that's still not enough only then go to a shield...but there's just never really a need to do so outside of epic or vs. a rare few Elite raid bosses. Being able to go from full DPS to full AC is a swing of over 20 AC though (6 / 10 shield, 5 CE, 5 blocking, 4-5 boosting), so a couple points more or less isn't really that big of a deal if you already have a meaningful DPS AC.

I've done every high end raid on him using the block & intimidate method (epic DQ, tons of elite ToDs, etc.), and hate tanking is far more reliable. It really is a shame stance 3 hate doesn't work, but stance 2 is plenty in DPS mode. Don't get me wrong - when the situation calls for a tank, I'd take an actual Tank with a good AC who can intimidate over a "WF tank" any day - but if you can combine a good enough AC with hate aggro, that is the best combination available IMO. Unfortunately, as your AC becomes less meaningful to the enemy you're fighting, the more you have to rely on intimidate to keep aggro...but it's still incredibly useful to be able to do both well.

Edit: Oh, and if I catch another person shield blocking Harry in parts 4 & 5, I might actually have to use my mic...it's people that do things like that that give real Tanks a bad name.

[MrWizard]

I do not see how a SD can hate tank with 4 barbarians on the mobs back. Let's say you get some lucky 220 crits in there....the barbs are hitting for 500+ over and over and over again. The arcane archer is wailing away with 500 point arrows.

I will say that I have not done them, tod, vod, shroud, elite due to no one really ever doing it much. But for norm and hard I have rarely ever had an issue holding aggro via intim.

The only issue arises via a ranged fellow too far away causing weird turn arounds or teleports. Bring them closer can take a lot of that away. Any loss due to glitch or stun is a second or two from coming back to me.

I tank vod, tod, etc all the time and never have an issue with the intimdate. Now, I can only get to around 70 intim and I do not know what elite is like...but I think it would be the same.

as a side note, the healing stick use during shield/intim has made self healing during any raid on norm or hard very easy.
The pots average around 50, but go from 37 to 64. Pots refresh quick. Even ToD was okay as the medals worked out with constant pot swallowing to make it a no cleric needed event.

Although in ToD you would want a healer wanding or heal wording you just in case of a disintegrate.

Heal stick = awesome.

Saw a 2,969 point heal in the tavern...

You usually have to tell the cleric...really...don't heal me please. If you do, please use cure light at the most (200 to 500 point cures). Save your mana and use a wand. Heal scrolls are self cast at 245, now add the cleric's enhancements and you can see that is way too much. Suggest using wands or cure mod/light scrolls. Save them money and mana.

[Quikster]

I do not see how a SD can hate tank with 4 barbarians on the mobs back. Let's say you get some lucky 220 crits in there....the barbs are hitting for 500+ over and over and over again. The arcane archer is wailing away with 500 point arrows.

I will say that I have not done them, tod, vod, shroud, elite due to no one really ever doing it much. But for norm and hard I have rarely ever had an issue holding aggro via intim.

The only issue arises via a ranged fellow too far away causing weird turn arounds or teleports. Bring them closer can take a lot of that away. Any loss due to glitch or stun is a second or two from coming back to me.

I tank vod, tod, etc all the time and never have an issue with the intimdate. Now, I can only get to around 70 intim and I do not know what elite is like...but I think it would be the same.

as a side note, the healing stick use during shield/intim has made self healing during any raid on norm or hard very easy.
The pots average around 50, but go from 37 to 64. Pots refresh quick. Even ToD was okay as the medals worked out with constant pot swallowing to make it a no cleric needed event.

Although in ToD you would want a healer wanding or heal wording you just in case of a disintegrate.

Heal stick = awesome.

Saw a 2,969 point heal in the tavern...

You usually have to tell the cleric...really...don't heal me please. If you do, please use cure light at the most (200 to 500 point cures). Save your mana and use a wand. Heal scrolls are self cast at 245, now add the cleric's enhancements and you can see that is way too much. Suggest using wands or cure mod/light scrolls. Save them money and mana.

Horoth is actually really easy to hate tank. You will take a little more damage as when he does hit you your dr will be lower, but its really not a big deal. Try it with a guild run or something where they dont mind letting you experiment once your twf raid buff ac is >75 or so.

Horoth rarely likes to switch agro once hes locked in on someone. When he drops pull him into position, the group can kill the first wave of orthons. Use your haste boost and wail away. After that you should be good to go. If any other defenders in group, they should not be using hate stances, though it prolly wouldnt matter.

Heres the problem with intimidate in ToD. If you lag at the right time, or are stunned at the right time, you cannot hit that intim button. Once the 6 seconds are up, he will immidiately run to whoever has his hate. There is a good chance that person will be on sullu. If that happens you have to run to where that group is and intimidate him again, before he pwns that group. Most players run like mad once they realize he is on them, so it becomes difficult to get within range, hit intim, and pull him back to where you want him.

Remember as a 20 fighter you are swinging a lot faster than any thf barb that may hit for a bunch. You are much more likely to lose agro to a twf kotc paly who knocks off a few crit smites right off the bat then to a raging barb.

[Quikster]

One thing that should be noted is Vyvy and I both have higher ac so that might make a difference. Though I think your build as it sits may have slightly more dps than Vyvy's dwarf. Im not 100% on his feat selection. I know he does have PA but not sure about the weapon specs. Mine does not have the weapons specs, but is trading out for them slowly every three days. Im dropping cleave, g cleave, sf umd, and possibly bullheaded or sf intim, not 100% on the last one yet.


So if we can hate tank horoth, im 100% you can if your ac is high enough. (which raid buffed it should be)

[Deusxmachina]

And i still do, you asked what do you do with an 84 CE ac. I said turn it off and turn on PA. You mentioned the to hit penalty and my point was, there is no to hit penalty for using PA over CE.

The fact of the matter is a SD ac build suffers terribly in the dps category. I know, I know, I have seen Mr. Wizzards sustaned dps argument. But in reality I can make a twf with 10% alacrity, that can raid buff to 80 (twf) but still dish out serious hurt (240+crits w/khopesh) when called for. Thats a 32 point build with less gear grinding than an ac tank.

But in a game so focused on dps, I cannot understand how you can rationalize that +3 dr or having a higher crit range on piercing weapons is more important than +5 to every hit. What exactly does having a higher crit range for piercing weapons get you at end game that is better than +5 to every hit?

Yes, its only +5, but on a khopesh, thats a lot of +15's.

Yes, there is no to-hit penalty for PA over CE, but there is a potential death penalty, and death means 0 DPS. If you have a pocket healer, then you can just play like a barbarian anyway, so PA would be the obvious choice.

That TWF that can raid buff to 80, what happens when he's not in raids and doesn't get raid buffed? Would he prefer having 3-5 more self-buffed AC? Maybe.

I don't see much point in imp crit at high level, either, unless it's a rapier-using guy, and in particular, a radiance rapier-using guy, and in particular of that, a radiance rapier-using guy with sneak attack.

I've already said I think most fighters should be able to fit in PA on pretty much any build, but this goes past that to "for melees, PA is a must-have." If you have an AC melee character tight on feats, what do you do? Some kind of AC ranger/rogue melee guy, for instance, after the required feats plus Weapon Finesse, there's not a whole lot of room left. It often basically comes down to Imp Crit, CE, PA... pick any two.

If a radiance rapier is going to be in that person's hand probably 98% of the time, it's really hard to not take imp crit, (along with using other pierce weapons anyway). If you're going for AC, it's a bit hard to give up CE. If you're hitting for, let's say 15 base + 40-ish sneak attack, PA is adding about 10% DPS at the cost of either Imp Crit or CE. Instead of killing something in 10 seconds, you kill it in 9. Instead of killing something in 60 seconds, you kill it in 54. The gap gets even smaller when raid buffed or with more strength or factoring in Holy or light damage or greater bane or whatever.

(How much damage might +3-5AC stop from five mobs swinging at you for 60 seconds? Tough to say. Granted, again, if you have a pocket healer, you probably don't care much anyway. Although he might.)

Let's give him enough strength to not need Weapon Finesse, and so he picks up Khopesh. He's still pretty much in the same boat. So we're back to CE vs. PA on an AC build.

Even against constructs and undead, if you have the right weapon in your hand, it's not like PA is adding 50% DPS or something. Does it help against those? Heck yeah. More than the khopesh feat does. Do you, as an AC build, still want them to not hit you? Heck yeah.

The more buffed you are, the less PA helps, and the less PA matters. (In general.) But the more buffed you are, the more each point of AC helps. If your AC is already high enough to blow past any mob's to-hit, then great, that toon is a superstar that can afford to give up some AC for DPS. But I sure see a lot of players with AC characters saying they could use some more AC. MrWizard saying he can tell when his +3 Barkskin runs out is a good example. This guy is an AC tank, yet he can tell when he loses +3 AC.

Again, (even though this is a bad thread for it, but the conversation is where it is), I'm surprised when a fighter can't fit in PA somewhere. But "all melee toons should have PA," covers a lot of ground, and sometimes it can be difficult to fit it in, or even to use it instead of CE like MrWizard mentioned. If you're already hitting most things for around 70 a swing, PA is adding about 7% to it. So instead of killing something in 60 seconds, you kill it in 55.8 seconds. Instead of killing something in 10 seconds, you kill it in 9.3 seconds. *shrug*

[Quikster]

Yes, there is no to-hit penalty for PA over CE, but there is a potential death penalty, and death means 0 DPS. If you have a pocket healer, then you can just play like a barbarian anyway, so PA would be the obvious choice.

That TWF that can raid buff to 80, what happens when he's not in raids and doesn't get raid buffed? Would he prefer having 3-5 more self-buffed AC? Maybe.

I don't see much point in imp crit at high level, either, unless it's a rapier-using guy, and in particular, a radiance rapier-using guy, and in particular of that, a radiance rapier-using guy with sneak attack.

I've already said I think most fighters should be able to fit in PA on pretty much any build, but this goes past that to "for melees, PA is a must-have." If you have an AC melee character tight on feats, what do you do? Some kind of AC ranger/rogue melee guy, for instance, after the required feats plus Weapon Finesse, there's not a whole lot of room left. It often basically comes down to Imp Crit, CE, PA... pick any two.

If a radiance rapier is going to be in that person's hand probably 98% of the time, it's really hard to not take imp crit, (along with using other pierce weapons anyway). If you're going for AC, it's a bit hard to give up CE. If you're hitting for, let's say 15 base + 40-ish sneak attack, PA is adding about 10% DPS at the cost of either Imp Crit or CE. Instead of killing something in 10 seconds, you kill it in 9. Instead of killing something in 60 seconds, you kill it in 54. The gap gets even smaller when raid buffed or with more strength or factoring in Holy or light damage or greater bane or whatever.

(How much damage might +3-5AC stop from five mobs swinging at you for 60 seconds? Tough to say. Granted, again, if you have a pocket healer, you probably don't care much anyway. Although he might.)

Let's give him enough strength to not need Weapon Finesse, and so he picks up Khopesh. He's still pretty much in the same boat. So we're back to CE vs. PA on an AC build.

Even against constructs and undead, if you have the right weapon in your hand, it's not like PA is adding 50% DPS or something. Does it help against those? Heck yeah. More than the khopesh feat does. Do you, as an AC build, still want them to not hit you? Heck yeah.

The more buffed you are, the less PA helps, and the less PA matters. But the more buffed you are, the more each point of AC helps. If your AC is already high enough to blow past any mob's to-hit, then great, that toon is a superstar that can afford to give up some AC for DPS. But I sure see a lot of players with AC characters saying they could use some more AC. MrWizard saying he can tell when his +3 Barkskin runs out is a good example. This guy is an AC tank, yet he can tell when he loses +3 AC.

Again, (even though this is a bad thread for it, but the conversation is where it is), I'm surprised when a fighter can't fit in PA somewhere. But "all melee toons should have PA," covers a lot of ground, and sometimes it can be difficult to fit it in, or even to use it instead of CE like MrWizard mentioned. If you're already hitting most things for around 70 a swing, PA is adding about 7% to it. So instead of killing something in 60 seconds, you kill it in 55.8 seconds. Instead of killing something in 10 seconds, you kill it in 9.3 seconds. *shrug*

Whats all this garbage about radiance and sa? We are talking about tanks here (i know you mentioned it, but i think after a long winded response about stuff that has no buisness in this thread it deserves another mention )

All my dex based alts have PA, IC, CE, toughness, twf line, and, wf. Everyone of my melees has pa. So I live by what I preach. Are there builds that cant fit it in? Sure. this isnt one of them.

Now to highlight a section of your mostly off topic response:

Yes, there is no to-hit penalty for PA over CE, but there is a potential death penalty, and death means 0 DPS. If you have a pocket healer, then you can just play like a barbarian anyway, so PA would be the obvious choice.

That TWF that can raid buff to 80, what happens when he's not in raids and doesn't get raid buffed? Would he prefer having 3-5 more self-buffed AC? Maybe.

The death penalty you refer to is a non issue in the context of our discussion. Maybe you need to re-read the posts. Our discussion was in reference to CE not getting you any more meaningful ac. That is per YOUR post.

So if your ac is at a 78 on vod norm, you might as well turn PA on. You are going to get hit the exact same amount let me repeat for emphasis. At 78 ac on vod norm (with ce on ) if you turn PA on you will get hit the exact same amount as you would with ce on These are the situations I am talking about. Mr. Wizard should be getting close to this situation much more than hes is to using a banisher.

Now obviously this depends on the content you play, the amount of grinding you are going to do, etc.

Another argument for PA is for epic trash. PA is a must if you have someone using weighted weapons where you are going to auto hit/crit.

As someone who has several builds that break the 80 ac mark, who has tanked every raid in the game on every difficulty, I highly recomend PA if you are interested in being an end game tank at the highest levels.

[vyvy3369]

I do not see how a SD can hate tank with 4 barbarians on the mobs back. Let's say you get some lucky 220 crits in there....the barbs are hitting for 500+ over and over and over again. The arcane archer is wailing away with 500 point arrows.

It's not that complicated, really. You make roughly twice as many attacks, and each one counts for at least double due to your defensive stance (if Defensive Stance 3 hate generation actually worked, that would mean +200% instead of +100%). There are also a few other increases in hate generation that can help with that. So assuming each hit does at least 1/4 of what the THF DPS builds are dealing, you will tend to keep aggro. I ran a ToD last night with 3 guildies who do very good DPS (edit: I can't really speak for the PUGs, but I knew most of them, and none of them were low DPS by any means), and never had to use intimidate a single time - they just give me a little head start against each boss, and then they're free to go all out.

Edit: and as I said, I've done everything with shield blocking & intimidate, it's just more reliable to use hate. The fundamental difference is that with hate tanking, other people have to steal the aggro from you, but with intimidate you constantly have to steal it back from everyone else every 6 seconds. Both will work, but auto-attack is far easier to rely upon than making sure you hit intimidate every 6 seconds.

[Deusxmachina]

All my dex based alts have PA, IC, CE, toughness, twf line, and, wf. Everyone of my melees has pa. So I live by what I preach. Are there builds that cant fit it in? Sure. this isnt one of them.

Now to highlight a section of your mostly off topic response:

My response isn't off-topic when you say, "PA for melee toons is a must have," and then I respond to that statement. Nor off-topic when the Original Poster himself says PA doesn't fit into the build all that great and that he notices when he's missing +3 AC and that he "gets hit a lot" when CE is off.

I originally asked what to do with 84ac because that's 5 less than the 89 you mentioned when it's ok to drop CE. I assumed the point would be obvious that I was talking about the general going from "untouchable" to not, but apparently not. If you have the best gear and buffs and are untouchable without CE, then of course there's no reason to use CE. But that's not really the case here.

Is +5 more damage nice to have? Certainly. But if you still notice when your Barkskin drops off and you start taking a lot of damage, then you're probably going to leave CE on. And, if you are untouchable, how much do you really care if you kill something in 9.3 seconds instead of 10? That turns into an even smaller gap when you have 11 other people killing it.

Neither side of the spectrum is always the best choice. It depends what you're doing and who you're doing it with, of course.

Swap the imp crit argument for a skills feat argument or just the simple argument of you can't have CE on if PA is on and so which will you use more and how much more. I was offering different examples to get the same overall point across -- that sometimes PA just doesn't fit in all that great. Let me count how many "off-topic," "different example to show a point" sentences there might be in my last post... I count about 5. Out of about 40 sentences. Oh noes.

If someone didn't like the sneak-attack damage example, I didn't think it'd be hard for them to make the connection to whatever other damage their particular build might be doing. If you're hitting for 55 or whatever a swing, then you're hitting for 55 or whatever a swing.

The blanket statement of "All melee toons should have PA" is what I straight-out said I was referring to, and since you now just said, "Are there builds that can't fit it in? Sure." there we are.

[Quikster]

My response isn't off-topic when you say, "PA for melee toons is a must have," and then I respond to that statement. Nor off-topic when the Original Poster himself says PA doesn't fit into the build all that great and that he notices when he's missing +3 AC and that he "gets hit a lot" when CE is off.

I originally asked what to do with 84ac because that's 5 less than the 89 you mentioned when it's ok to drop CE. I assumed the point would be obvious that I was talking about the general going from "untouchable" to not, but apparently not. If you have the best gear and buffs and are untouchable without CE, then of course there's no reason to use CE. But that's not really the case here.

Is +5 more damage nice to have? Certainly. But if you still notice when your Barkskin drops off and you start taking a lot of damage, then you're probably going to leave CE on. And, if you are untouchable, how much do you really care if you kill something in 9.3 seconds instead of 10? That turns into an even smaller gap when you have 11 other people killing it.

Neither side of the spectrum is always the best choice. It depends what you're doing and who you're doing it with, of course.

Swap the imp crit argument for a skills feat argument or just the simple argument of you can't have CE on if PA is on and so which will you use more and how much more. I was offering different examples to get the same overall point across -- that sometimes PA just doesn't fit in all that great. Let me count how many "off-topic," "different example to show a point" sentences there might be in my last post... I count about 5. Out of about 40 sentences. Oh noes.

If someone didn't like the sneak-attack damage example, I didn't think it'd be hard for them to make the connection to whatever other damage their particular build might be doing. If you're hitting for 55 or whatever a swing, then you're hitting for 55 or whatever a swing.

The blanket statement of "All melee toons should have PA" is what I straight-out said I was referring to, and since you now just said, "Are there builds that can't fit it in? Sure." there we are.

Uh ok sure, I make a flipant comment about how every melee build should have pa, point being a 20 fighter can certainly find a way to fit it in, and you go off for half a post about things completely unrelated to a fighter, or even a specific build in the fighter forums, ok your right on topic.


You keep going back to the 84 ac issue. Drop it, your wrong. If you would like to string together assumptions the reader should have made, spell it out in the future.

I pulled a number out of my head for that post. But if you would like to debate it fine. A fighter who has so many feats, whose goal it is to be a raid tank, would be better off at lvl 20 with power attack over 1 of the shield mastery feats or ic pierce (when specd for khops). Why is that? Well hate tanking is by far the best way to tank most raids. If the defender has enough ac (which he should eventually for most raids on norm or hard) he is better off dpsing the boss while taking little damage (hit on 20's) than turtled and taking little damge (spell damage only if vod, 40 pts less on tod).

In tod the tank will still take constant damage regardless of ac. There are 2 choices, take constant damage while turtled, spamming intim, or take constant damage while dealing constant damage. A low dps SD should be able to whittle Horoth down below 1/2 ish before the rest of the raid party dispatches sullu. This saves a lot of time, while using almost the exact same mana.

Sure not every build could fit in PA, doesnt mean they are good builds though. If you would like to discuss this, start a thread for it, but i suspect you dont, so lets drop it as it is off topic.