The Cannon Fodder Tank, The Kensai/Stalwart Build

[Quikster]

I am trying to do your concept, I like it in theory but I am confused. If having the use of the shield is such a vital component of the build, why all the TWF feats? Is that for ease of as you said switching enhancements around and playing kensai in lieu of SD? If one wanted to just concentrate on being a straight S&B SD what feats would be good to replace the TWF feats with or does doing that defeat the entire purpose of the character?

If one wanted to focus solely on s&b, that one would be a total waste of a party slot in 90% of the game. Thats the reason for all the twf feats.

[MrWizard]

I am trying to do your concept, I like it in theory but I am confused. If having the use of the shield is such a vital component of the build, why all the TWF feats? Is that for ease of as you said switching enhancements around and playing kensai in lieu of SD? If one wanted to just concentrate on being a straight S&B SD what feats would be good to replace the TWF feats with or does doing that defeat the entire purpose of the character?

as a fighter you need a dps option. THF or TWF is the way to go.

TWF is useful if your ac is high enough to deal with mobs too. Allows you to carry two weapons with lots of extras on them (curse, stat damage, etc). THF only allows one weapon attack.

Up to you which way you go...but you should pick one or the other as a back up. Do you need to? No.
You could take those three feats and make you more invulnerable. It really does not matter.

[Rydlic]

Yeah, one conveniently stacking AC. And the saves. Never forget about the saves!

You really will not have much left for the save enhancements after getting the PrE, HP, STR, DEX.. not much left at all.

[Paladin63]

If one wanted to focus solely on s&b, that one would be a total waste of a party slot in 90% of the game. Thats the reason for all the twf feats.

Why would that be a waste of a party slot? Survivability, still damaging albeit not quite as quickly. What makes S&B such a terrible thing? I don't understand that mind set.

[MrWizard]

Why would that be a waste of a party slot? Survivability, still damaging albeit not quite as quickly. What makes S&B such a terrible thing? I don't understand that mind set.

add stunning blow and improved trip, respecc enhancements and you will be a huge help, especially in epic

it don't really matter.

bad pugs need you to survive, great pugs will do fine with you s&b.

if the party decides not to use your intim/shield, then they are either nuts or a really good pug..either way, in the midst of it all, just have fun and do what you want.


another thing i am looking at is the feat mobility and the 3 enhancements..+10 ac while tumbling...with chattering ring i would be at 89+ self buffed, 94 boosted..add a pally and bard and ranger bark, and you get near 110 .

even epic would be hard pressed to touch you...especially after the new update

tumble, used while intiming in firewalls or just plain zerging..really helps. especially in alerts. However that ac is useless while fighting.

[Quikster]

Why would that be a waste of a party slot? Survivability, still damaging albeit not quite as quickly. What makes S&B such a terrible thing? I don't understand that mind set.

What makes 4 ac much more survivable? 4 ac vs full line of dps fighting style feats Ill take the feats 90% of the time. Not quite as quickly is a huge misnomer.

[Paladin63]

Well I am going to do the build as posted taking the TWF feats, I just don't understand when I am supposed to use the S&B tactics and when I am supposed to use the TWF tactics. Hopefully I will learn better as I go. I don't do well with DDO as a numbers game. I do much better with DDO as a social game/experience.

[MrWizard]

Well I am going to do the build as posted taking the TWF feats, I just don't understand when I am supposed to use the S&B tactics and when I am supposed to use the TWF tactics. Hopefully I will learn better as I go. I don't do well with DDO as a numbers game. I do much better with DDO as a social game/experience.

I believe sword and board gives you 4 attacks in your chain, twf gives you 8 (once you have ITWF and GTWF).

At lower levels I like to use different types of weapons in different hands to do many things at once (dps, paralyze, banish, curse, shatter, etc).

I usually enter combat sword and board for a number of reasons...

1) to make sure I am not overpowered and am killed quickly
2) to make sure the lag monster does not kill me
3) it is much cheaper to not blow my shield wands for combat where twf is not needed

If it looks like I am not taking much damage, I will switch to twf.
If on the back of a raid boss (not tanking) I will twf for more damage output.


IT has been scientifically proven that both twf and thf do more damage over time than sword and board.

However, if you are taking a lot of damage, going with a shield is much cheaper and will give you +5 to +10 ac depending on resources.

I believe the sword/board attack chain is just 4 swings...boom, boom, boom, etc..at full power.
TWF gives you 4 regular swings (like s&b) but adds 4 off hand swings with the strength modifier halved for damage.





If you want to spend the resources (shield wand) and pick up the feat (twf defense) they will give you 5 AC..this will make up 5 AC loss from losing the shield AC of 10 when twf fighting..

And that is not so bad.

New update...hmm...maybe go sword and board, we shall see. The best part about twf is there is no need for re-crafting or new-crafting of weapons for dps switch from twf to sword and board. To go THF you have to do twice the crafting, double the items, so you can do the same thing while sword and board and while THF.


So, stay sword and board for the most part. Open up when you want with TWF. It does add some more damage over time.


Honestly though, I do not think it is really a 'necessity' but it is fun to use the twf.

There may be more to twf in extra hit chances...and the new update may make that even more effective, I would just go twf and wait and see.


wearing the shield gives you 6 dr and easy button up ability...and with stoneskin I can get to 49 DR...which is rather helpful.

[Quikster]

Are you counting the extra hooks granted for twf feats? Excuse me if you did, I just woke up and am sitting on the porch over looking the water in Mexico, drinking my first cup o joe, so my mind isnt really here yet

[MrWizard]

Are you counting the extra hooks granted for twf feats? Excuse me if you did, I just woke up and am sitting on the porch over looking the water in Mexico, drinking my first cup o joe, so my mind isnt really here yet

i have no idea of all the stuff...ddowiki says that twf adds the extras til you get 4 main attacks and 4 off hand.

no idea what extras come with single weapon either...turbine has not really ever set a 'official manual' about any of it, from what I see it is all player 'info' that figured it out...why they need to make it 'unknown' is beyond me.

[worthful]

Huge post, beware:

New update...hmm...maybe go sword and board, we shall see. The best part about twf is there is no need for re-crafting or new-crafting of weapons for dps switch from twf to sword and board. To go THF you have to do twice the crafting, double the items, so you can do the same thing while sword and board and while THF.

I don't understand when people say that THF is twice the weapons. For TWF you have to craft 2x weapons by default. For THF you have to craft a THF weapon and a normal weapon for tanking. How is that 2x? /confuse.

another thing i am looking at is the feat mobility and the 3 enhancements..+10 ac while tumbling...with chattering ring i would be at 89+ self buffed, 94 boosted..add a pally and bard and ranger bark, and you get near 110

I don't mean to sound harsh, but, I personally don't see this being very useful yet. it seems like the melee would hate you for tumbling all the time and dragging the mobs back and forth while you tumbled. The AC would be insane, though, and probably really useful for the shroud while the other mobs are being primed. In other situations, it seems like more of a hassle than the benefit provided. You're more experienced though, what do you think of the downside of this?

You really will not have much left for the save enhancements after getting the PrE, HP, STR, DEX.. not much left at all.

I keep seeing people mention PrE...what is that? (the noob questions never stop, sorry.)

TWF is useful if your ac is high enough to deal with mobs too. Allows you to carry two weapons with lots of extras on them (curse, stat damage, etc). THF only allows one weapon attack.

I've been using THF for a bit now and noticed a huge damage increase, but after some thought it seems like TWF is really going to jump ahead in a few levels, for exactly that reason. 2x the chance to paralyze, curse, damage stats, vorpal, etc...

Gonna be a while before I get there. Just switched servers so I'm running a barb as my first character to get some money for the gear-dependent monster this build is. I hate to say I took a build from a nemesis of yours (shade) =P I've seen some of your back and forth on the thread about how useful AC is in Epics...was a good laugh.

2- not sure what you mean, but your greensteel would be different (and a lot of your build) if you go warforged.

I mean the immunities that WF get automatically. Sleep, poison, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion vs. the reduced healing penalty. Being immune to those could be a huge help in some situations, but then again when you are tanking and being healed through a boss fight, the reduced healing sounds terrible. Nothing is worse than a dead tank, and if you can't heal the tank effectively then you have a dead tank. Unless you have a sorc / wiz dedicated healer for the tank, but in that case...*** is wrong with your group? =P (I know that group build can be valid, just a joke.)




Lastly:

I wonder what the charts would look like if you took some base feats from both TWF and THF then used DA or BS. It would have to be for a more DPS Focused build than this one is (or maybe not, perhaps.) Using this build, you could drop dodge, imp crit pierce, and maybe greater weapon spec slashing for the three THF feats. Or does that bonus to those weapons only apply if you are using a shield?

[Quikster]

Wf'd can get healed by an arcane as well. You say healing penalties and I say healing versatility. If you are going to use DT you can get real close to 100% healing on divine healing fairly easily. WF'd also do more damage then other classes with their PA enhancements.

[MrWizard]

Huge post, beware:
I don't understand when people say that THF is twice the weapons. For TWF you have to craft 2x weapons by default. For THF you have to craft a THF weapon and a normal weapon for tanking. How is that 2x? /confuse.

Well, if you are going sword and board for any reason against a raid boss, you need to get a great axe minII AND a khopesh minII. The difference being only one can be used at a time and if you do not have BOTH done, you are SOL for one style of combat.
For TWF and sword and board you can get by with one minII until the other is done.
For me, I would have no choice but to craft two weapon types of the same kind to have the same effect if I was THF.
I usually have a min II in one hand and a messed up lightning strike in the other.
Until you get both done if THF, one fighting style will not be up to par.





I don't mean to sound harsh, but, I personally don't see this being very useful yet. it seems like the melee would hate you for tumbling all the time and dragging the mobs back and forth while you tumbled. The AC would be insane, though, and probably really useful for the shroud while the other mobs are being primed. In other situations, it seems like more of a hassle than the benefit provided. You're more experienced though, what do you think of the downside of this?

If you are tanking a boss you are usually up against a wall, so tumbling keeps you put.
However, I am usually zerging through mobs at yellow to red alert. One hit and you are harried. Tumbling means faster movement in stance, keeping that AC, and then adding 10 more...go right through the dungeon on a zerg fest..lol

it was just a thought. Everything is worth looking into. Quite frankly I am usually way ahead of a group and I do not like to take damage. Great way to move around.


I keep seeing people mention PrE...what is that? (the noob questions never stop, sorry.)

Prestige enhancement. SOme classes have them, some do not. Stalwart defender is one of those prestige enhancements. (just an uber upgrade for your toon).



I've been using THF for a bit now and noticed a huge damage increase, but after some thought it seems like TWF is really going to jump ahead in a few levels, for exactly that reason. 2x the chance to paralyze, curse, damage stats, vorpal, etc...

It really is up to you what you want to do. Either way is fine both now or after the update.

Gonna be a while before I get there. Just switched servers so I'm running a barb as my first character to get some money for the gear-dependent monster this build is. I hate to say I took a build from a nemesis of yours (shade) =P I've seen some of your back and forth on the thread about how useful AC is in Epics...was a good laugh.

Not my nemesis. He just reads what I write in the wrong way and seems to take it personally. And he seems to hate ac tanks. He is a definite barbarian builder and i would probably use any of his builds to plan my barb at first for sure.
Shade is more like a forum role playing barbarian. And he plays it well.

Best quick money for me is a sorc with high charisma, heighten, and pure control specc to just waltz through lower stuff. You can also pay to transfer your toon(s) to another server.



I mean the immunities that WF get automatically. Sleep, poison, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion vs. the reduced healing penalty. Being immune to those could be a huge help in some situations, but then again when you are tanking and being healed through a boss fight, the reduced healing sounds terrible. Nothing is worse than a dead tank, and if you can't heal the tank effectively then you have a dead tank. Unless you have a sorc / wiz dedicated healer for the tank, but in that case...*** is wrong with your group? =P (I know that group build can be valid, just a joke.)

Building a character and planning it out takes a lot. The more you invest in research, the better your toon will be. You have to look at all the racial stuff, the different classes and possible multiclass, and then research all the gear (from end gear on down).
This build was researched for a human, 32 pt build, and the gear and uses for that specific thing. I WF would be different in many unique ways, some good, some bad.



Lastly:

I wonder what the charts would look like if you took some base feats from both TWF and THF then used DA or BS. It would have to be for a more DPS Focused build than this one is (or maybe not, perhaps.) Using this build, you could drop dodge, imp crit pierce, and maybe greater weapon spec slashing for the three THF feats. Or does that bonus to those weapons only apply if you are using a shield?

I used to have this fighter with all the fighting feats. Being a generalist lowers your abilities but is still playable quite well. Each thing you add takes something away and takes the build in another direction.
The gweapon spec slashing would also cause the loss of the extra damage enhancements and a lower to hit (and this does matter in epic).


It really sounds like you want to go THF. So just do it. Take the three THF feats and not the 3 TWF feats. It really does not matter... it is just up to you.

I would advise against lowering your ac or doubling up on too many redundant dps feats. If you go TWF you can still use a THF style, just with less 'extras'.

[Paladin63]

So how are these new changes to fix lag coming down the pike going to affect the feasibility of this build? Or is it simply going to stay proportional overall?

[Quikster]

So how are these new changes to fix lag coming down the pike going to affect the feasibility of this build? Or is it simply going to stay proportional overall?

Honestly nobody knows until some of the tweakers get together and run the calcs. New attacks/min need to be run for both styles with and without the full line of feats. Then the numbers need to be crunched. Finally it has to go live so we see which version Turbine decides to go live with and if it matches the one that was tested on Lamania.

However, not much would change if you decided to go thf in order to maximize damage. Its less stat intensive to begin with, though you would still have some dex to help your ac. Switch twf for thf, drop twd and thats really about it (unless he has otwf, then you would drop that as well)

In my not so humble opinion an intimitank needs a dps option in this game. If going fighter, there is no reason to not have a fighting style line of feats. You get so many feats, and can get your defense more then high enough, its simply too good to pass up imo.

[MrWizard]

So how are these new changes to fix lag coming down the pike going to affect the feasibility of this build? Or is it simply going to stay proportional overall?

it will be absolutely fine...


infact, with the ac changes in epic you will be more than fine.


If your dps goes down a bit, everyone's does. And THF is getting nerfs too, so there is no safety haven.

Fact is, a little less or more is not gonna really make a difference at all.

It is just disappointing to everyone the 'sudden' changes with 3 weeks warning.


The only real bummer for the build with the coming nerfs is the bunny hat changes. Not allowing the umd to add to scrolls means you need to switch out stalwart necklace for UMD which looses all your action boosts.
It means grinding for the gloves from the titan for +5, and possibly having to get an extra dex item somewhere or somehow to avoid that ac/save loss when switching to the umd gloves in combat.

other than that....we be fine.

[Quikster]

it will be absolutely fine...


infact, with the ac changes in epic you will be more than fine.


If your dps goes down a bit, everyone's does. And THF is getting nerfs too, so there is no safety haven.

Fact is, a little less or more is not gonna really make a difference at all.

It is just disappointing to everyone the 'sudden' changes with 3 weeks warning.


The only real bummer for the build with the coming nerfs is the bunny hat changes. Not allowing the umd to add to scrolls means you need to switch out stalwart necklace for UMD which looses all your action boosts.
It means grinding for the gloves from the titan for +5, and possibly having to get an extra dex item somewhere or somehow to avoid that ac/save loss when switching to the umd gloves in combat.

other than that....we be fine.

Since I didnt get the lotd on my 20th abbot I took the gloves for +3 umd till I get titan gloves, this lets me keep my necklace on when i need.

[MrWizard]

Since I didnt get the lotd on my 20th abbot I took the gloves for +3 umd till I get titan gloves, this lets me keep my necklace on when i need.

thought they were +5 ?

I just worry about dropping my dex gloves to don them..
-3 to reflex saves, not a biggie.
-3 to AC a biggie.
-3 to any skill or save per dex (knockdown?)

I guess it would only matter when I was doing the 'surrounded by enemies heal scroll' thing.

You ever use a concentration item to help you with that?




One other thing...totally forgot...I can get purchase past life feat a second time right? Even if I only TR'd once...?
That would be 1 max dex bonus more, 2 intim, etc, etc, etc...

am I reading that wrong?

[Quikster]

thought they were +5 ?

I just worry about dropping my dex gloves to don them..
-3 to reflex saves, not a biggie.
-3 to AC a biggie.
-3 to any skill or save per dex (knockdown?)

I guess it would only matter when I was doing the 'surrounded by enemies heal scroll' thing.

You ever use a concentration item to help you with that?




One other thing...totally forgot...I can get purchase past life feat a second time right? Even if I only TR'd once...?
That would be 1 max dex bonus more, 2 intim, etc, etc, etc...

am I reading that wrong?

its much much better then you think Vile Blasphemy

No past life feats can only be purchased once. You can get to +10 with a human though, how much more dex are you going to get then 30?

I dont bother with con items, I have so few backpack spaces as it is.

[MrWizard]

awesome, didn't know they had dex..perfect...i hate the titan...


this just in, lammania...

Non-named Epic monsters now are often classified as "minions", and have reduced saves and a greater chance of missing their opponents due to their lackluster combat training. Sucks to be them!

this may only apply to monks or casters...

Combat Expertise no longer breaks on spellcast. Instead, spell point costs are doubled while in the stance.

The Stalwart Defender enhancement line now explicitly mentions that the DR benefit is only gained when using a melee weapon with a shield.