The Cannon Fodder Tank, The Kensai/Stalwart Build

[MrWizard]

All this talk of power attack. I tried it. Was a waste of a slot for my toon. Such little help at such a great loss of AC (combat expertise).

Looking at the epic threads I see one constant too. All the major DPS toons drop DPS and go for one shot weapons/items like trip, stun, weighted etc...

It seems like stunning blow or improved trip would be much more viable than power attack on elite and probably allow some good solo ability in there with little in the way of pots.

Tried switching out power attack but neither blow or trip were available...dang it. Lame.
Went back to imp crit pierce for the moment. Going to see what weapons that proc on crits do in epic to see if that would help any.

I know stat damage is pretty much nerfed in epic (although not completely). Slow actually works (for some reason their saves are lower). Paralyzers work too.

So, in EPIC, dps is meaningless for most parts as they seem to block/firewall a lot of mobs, by pass mobs via invis, or use lesser DPS weapons to proc trip, stun, etc and only then use DPS via insta crits. IF you are getting insta crits, then nice x4 cirt weapons would be good to carry too (which takes out the whole reason for getting khopesh feats and enhancements)

I am thinking once you get enough gear, you no longer will do anything but epic which should bring you to a respec.

However, if the hardest dungeons in the game are about x4 low crit range weapons, waiting for procs of trip/stun/weighted, and DPS only when stunned....then that kinda goes against most builds and reasoning behind them.

IF this works on such a high level challenge, why isn't it better to do the same things at lower levels? Very odd.

will respec a bit and post notes.

[worthful]

I know my 2 cents is actually worth a lot less than that, but here goes anyway:


I actually dropped Shield Master, TWF and OTWF for THF, WFocus:Slash, and PA just recently. When I was running around with 2x khopeshes I noticed a huge issue with missing mobs. I picked up OTWF and it seemed to make all the difference...side note: I use the highest + I can for my level. I do not get special effect weapons, because like I said, i had a huge hit problem. Between the expense of two weapons vs one weapon and the +hit situation, I decided I'd try out THF for the time being. Granted, I'm only level 9, but my new situation does WAY more damage. I'm sure this has more to do with my level then anything else. I can still run around without a shield on and take relatively low damage. I grab a pocket cleric and I can go full DPS mode without having to worry about dying.

With THF, I don't have to worry about missing, and I can keep PA on the whole time. Turns out I do a lot more damage this way.

That was a lot of rambling, but basically the tl;dr version is:

Perhaps the fact I am running normal / hard and am only level 9 determines the facts here, but as of right now PA + THF is way better. Maybe this carries through to later levels? Either that, or maybe PA isn't good when you are 20, but its great when you're 9.

[MrWizard]

I know my 2 cents is actually worth a lot less than that, but here goes anyway:

its your game and your toon, means more than my advice.


I actually dropped Shield Master, TWF and OTWF for THF, WFocus:Slash, and PA just recently.

OTWF is usually never needed. Wfocus slash you should have anyway. SHield mastery builds your DR for shield blocking. THF feats can be used instead of TWF, doesn't really matter which way you go (although for crafting it is a bummer to need to do botha greataxe and a khopesh minII for shield duty).

When I was running around with 2x khopeshes I noticed a huge issue with missing mobs. I picked up OTWF and it seemed to make all the difference...

I believe OTWF gives you plus 2 to hit. That means you just needed a little help like heroism pot, more strength, or you could just use sword and board...or a dagger in one hand.
THF has a higher to hit and PA does more damage with THF (+5).

side note: I use the highest + I can for my level. I do not get special effect weapons, because like I said, i had a huge hit problem.

If otwf cured it, your to hit is not so bad. I do not know how you built your toon or if you use buffs, but I would consider looking into your to hit. Destruction weapons help, using one weapon helps, using a dagger off hand helps, heroism or GH helps, I think you can do +4? or +5 str right now?
the weapon plus is important...if it is a +1, try getting a +4 or +5 and it will be solved.

Between the expense of two weapons vs one weapon and the +hit situation, I decided I'd try out THF for the time being. Granted, I'm only level 9, but my new situation does WAY more damage. I'm sure this has more to do with my level then anything else. I can still run around without a shield on and take relatively low damage. I grab a pocket cleric and I can go full DPS mode without having to worry about dying.

Not worrying about dying is important. But do not forget your roll as a stalwart, your first concern is to keep the mobs off the party, calm the battle down, and whittle your foes to pieces. You are the defender of the party.

With THF, I don't have to worry about missing, and I can keep PA on the whole time. Turns out I do a lot more damage this way.

If you were using Power attack at 9th level, while TWF, remember that is -5 to hit. You have to make that up somehow. Buffs should usually do it though.



Perhaps the fact I am running normal / hard and am only level 9 determines the facts here, but as of right now PA + THF is way better. Maybe this carries through to later levels? Either that, or maybe PA isn't good when you are 20, but its great when you're 9.

You do more damage per swing THF as your strength bonus is larger and Power attack does 5 more extra damage. You crit on a 19 or 20 with your great axe, 17-20 with khopeshes. Numbers say it all, I would go khopesh TWF.

THF is perfectly fine too.

Just remember to pay attention to your buffs.


Everything in this game is 'incremental' and a pain to build up. DPS, AC, DR, HP, etc... even 'to hit'.

Whenever you have a problem area, you need to address that issue....or neglect it, even walk away from it (like some do from AC).

DR starts at 0...to get it to 45 you need the feats, the proper shield, Stalwart....each step you take away gets further from the 'best you can do'

HP....false life items, con mods, con buffs, toughness feat/enhance, crafted items (you will see), temp spell pr proc effects...it all adds up...each step you do not take, comes out of your total 'best you can be'

and so on...

To balance your toon, you will never be perfect on all parts. Taking any one part and ignoring it can make you weaker or even gimp, or maybe not affect you much at all.

DPS is important. But you cannot kill if you are dead.
AC is important, but if you cannot kill things what are you doing?


Remember, to go stalwart means you are the last defense if the party is wiping or in real trouble. With one click of intim you stop the entire battle. You must be able to handle that and it takes some work.

Wait til you get to level 10 and up...and hit Gianthold..
I would venture to say on hard you may want that shield on...a lot

[Rydlic]

I would have to say that the best thing for the build is, be patient. You don't blast through things at warp speed, you slow hack everything down and come out alive (sometimes unscathed).

Loosing the shield might as well loose SD, you miss out on a majority of the class benefits from that. To each their own.

[worthful]

its your game and your toon, means more than my advice.
Its true, but I meant in terms of late game anything. I've never run the end game dungeons other than Shroud and the mutt, so I'm not sure how those pan out.

OTWF is usually never needed. Wfocus slash you should have anyway. SHield mastery builds your DR for shield blocking. THF feats can be used instead of TWF, doesn't really matter which way you go (although for crafting it is a bummer to need to do botha greataxe and a khopesh minII for shield duty).
Crafting is a bummer either way, because TWF you have to build 2 khopeshes. Currently I don't actually use a GA. I use a GS that does 1 con damage on hit. Maybe this isn't a great idea, but it seems to work.

I believe OTWF gives you plus 2 to hit. That means you just needed a little help like heroism pot, more strength, or you could just use sword and board...or a dagger in one hand.
THF has a higher to hit and PA does more damage with THF (+5).
Right, OTWF is +2. But I always run around with heroism, I have the max +str for my level (+4 to make it even.) Using a S&B actually did solve the problem. I'm somewhat of a zerger when I can be (I can solo Gwylans in 20 minutes, tear of dhakan in 23) so using the TWF or THF really made that work out. When I was TWF and used a dagger I noticed the hit problem being taken care of, but it really dropped my DPS a ton. Maybe I just need to be more patient.

If otwf cured it, your to hit is not so bad. I do not know how you built your toon or if you use buffs, but I would consider looking into your to hit. Destruction weapons help, using one weapon helps, using a dagger off hand helps, heroism or GH helps, I think you can do +4? or +5 str right now?
the weapon plus is important...if it is a +1, try getting a +4 or +5 and it will be solved.
I bascially followed your template exactly (as a 32point.) Pardon my noob, but what are destruction weapons? the only other thing I could get is a GH rather than a normal heroism. Pots are already expensive enough, and I Don't even think GH pots are available...are they? I also use the highest +weapon available for me. I even dropped my elemental damage weapons so I could pick up weapons that had a better +

Not worrying about dying is important. But do not forget your roll as a stalwart, your first concern is to keep the mobs off the party, calm the battle down, and whittle your foes to pieces. You are the defender of the party.
Very true. I have the game installed on a machine at work (I have not and will not play on the clock, but lunch break is free game, plus I get to work an hour early every day) so I often don't have time to find a group then run a dungeon. Maybe all servers are like this, I'm not sure, but on mine it always takes a decent amount of time to find a group that will get me EXP. I've thought about hopping to another server and trying it out, but we'll see if I do that or not.

If you were using Power attack at 9th level, while TWF, remember that is -5 to hit. You have to make that up somehow. Buffs should usually do it though.
If I had TWF+PA, I'd probably do nothing but miss. When I put on a S&B, however, I do just fine even with PA. It actually makes a huge difference.


------
You do more damage per swing THF as your strength bonus is larger and Power attack does 5 more extra damage. You crit on a 19 or 20 with your great axe, 17-20 with khopeshes. Numbers say it all, I would go khopesh TWF.
Like I said above, I generally use a GS and do pretty well. I actually just picked up a falchion (from a chest, not the auction) and have been testing it out. The numbers are small, but I crit on a 15. That's pretty sweet.

THF is perfectly fine too. Just remember to pay attention to your buffs.
always do. I've actually robbed my cleric of all his money to feed my fighter pots.


Everything in this game is 'incremental' and a pain to build up. DPS, AC, DR, HP, etc... even 'to hit'.
This is such a different MMO then what I'm used to, I guess. EQ has bias my opinion about everything. When I first heard that elves could be reasonable barbarians, I was confused. Worse yet, barbarian was a RACE in EQ, not a class. Guess that means I just have to be patient. Missing was never a problem

Whenever you have a problem area, you need to address that issue....or neglect it, even walk away from it (like some do from AC).
My method of addressing it was switching to THF. I'd like to go back ASAP, though.

DR starts at 0...to get it to 45 you need the feats, the proper shield, Stalwart....each step you take away gets further from the 'best you can do' HP....false life items, con mods, con buffs, toughness feat/enhance, crafted items (you will see), temp spell pr proc effects...it all adds up...each step you do not take, comes out of your total 'best you can be' and so on...
I noticed that. This is my 2nd build like this, the other only got to 6. I thought dodge was a wasted feat. When I went back and rerolled, I picked up dodge. I was shocked it actually made a big difference.

Remember, to go stalwart means you are the last defense if the party is wiping or in real trouble. With one click of intim you stop the entire battle. You must be able to handle that and it takes some work.

Wait til you get to level 10 and up...and hit Gianthold..
I would venture to say on hard you may want that shield on...a lot
Can't wait to get there....


Again, I Can't thank you (and everyone else in this thread) enough for the responses

[worthful]

Loosing the shield might as well loose SD, you miss out on a majority of the class benefits from that. To each their own.

I keep SD and the other tank enhancements because whenever I group I run S&B. Or often when I'm soloing, I'll hit the huge fight at the end of the dungeon, and there is no way I'd make it through to the end without going into stance.

[Bolo_Grubb]

but what are destruction weapons?

Destruction and improved destruction lower the AC of the monster you are fighting. By -4 and -8 if I remember correctly.

Weapons with these effects also "lights up" the monster for a second or 2 in a shade of blue. this can be helpful when you want everyone to attack the same monster

[Rydlic]

With the new proposed change coming to TWF It may be that Sword and Board with BS or DA, and the THF line may come out on top for possible dps. When it hits, I'll let you know, as it stand now I'll be lesser res and not looking back.

[MrWizard]

there is a big battle on the dps dudes about thf and twf..

however, if you go twf, you want the ITWF and GTWF, each add an extra attack. That gives you seven attacks in your chain.

For me, the TWF meant I could add 2 different style weapons during combat...so I could destruct with one weapon, curse with another...or paralyze, etc.. at lower levels.

Some weapons have 2 or 3 things on them (stat damage, trip/stun, vorpal, and so on and so on)...It means a lot at low level to do that, at least for me.

Banishing rapiers dual wielded makes you unstoppable for many levels in many dungeons..LOL


Greater heroism can be gotten from a caster. There is also a clickie available at 9th level from the xorian cypher (or the auction house). It is worth grinding for. +4 to saves, skills, attacks, immunity to fear, etc..
This should be your first big purchase or grind. You want that 'Planar gird' belt.



No matter what your build or what you do with your toon, it takes a long time to understand how the game works and WHY it works the way it does. What may seem silly or wrong will one day make sense.

As an AC tank, you end up regularly going over your head in dungeons, usually much higher level than you should...and that makes it hard to hit at lower levels.

Just sword and board for the plus to hit. You will still kill things.


Damage per swing can be misleading when looking at thf vs twf also.

[x1372]

Just wanted to say, thanks again for the build and the discussion going on around it. I had stopped playing on my lowbie fighter for a bit (most of my guildies suddenly stopped using their lowbies right as I got him up to their level... bleh) and now that I got him to level 8... he's doing quite well. I have yet to run into something that I couldn't intim (aside from the things that simply are immune to it) and I can pretty easily get my AC up above 50 if that's necessary. With using that 18 second +2 AC click I hit 55 selfbuffed... and I'm pretty sure I forgot to use my heroism pot for that test too. Can't wait to get my planar grid out next level for even more fun. Finally having access to improved crit slashing made a world of difference too in my dps. Felt painful to shell out the money for the +5 mith FP and tower shield, but I don't have to worry about upgrading again before I'm raid ready.

Are there any special recommendations for low level weapons I should get? Currently using a frost bodyfeeder khopesh of parrying... and have my icy burst paralyzer ready for 10 (my poor rogue's gonna have to make do without it, but he still has his icy burst paralyzer of puregood that the fighter can't UMD). Unfortunately my backup khopesh is just a frost holy of deception... nothing special there.

Also, do the "Dex AC" enhancements not show up when looking at armor? I took the first one this level and my mithril fullplate still SAYS its capping my dex AC at 3... or do the first two levels of that not work with mithril?

[Quikster]

Just wanted to say, thanks again for the build and the discussion going on around it. I had stopped playing on my lowbie fighter for a bit (most of my guildies suddenly stopped using their lowbies right as I got him up to their level... bleh) and now that I got him to level 8... he's doing quite well. I have yet to run into something that I couldn't intim (aside from the things that simply are immune to it) and I can pretty easily get my AC up above 50 if that's necessary. With using that 18 second +2 AC click I hit 55 selfbuffed... and I'm pretty sure I forgot to use my heroism pot for that test too. Can't wait to get my planar grid out next level for even more fun. Finally having access to improved crit slashing made a world of difference too in my dps. Felt painful to shell out the money for the +5 mith FP and tower shield, but I don't have to worry about upgrading again before I'm raid ready.

Are there any special recommendations for low level weapons I should get? Currently using a frost bodyfeeder khopesh of parrying... and have my icy burst paralyzer ready for 10 (my poor rogue's gonna have to make do without it, but he still has his icy burst paralyzer of puregood that the fighter can't UMD). Unfortunately my backup khopesh is just a frost holy of deception... nothing special there.

Also, do the "Dex AC" enhancements not show up when looking at armor? I took the first one this level and my mithril fullplate still SAYS its capping my dex AC at 3... or do the first two levels of that not work with mithril?

SD I increases MDB on shields only.

SD II increases MDB on heavy armor and shields only

SD III increases MDB on Medium or Heavy armor and shields

[MrWizard]

Also, do the "Dex AC" enhancements not show up when looking at armor? I took the first one this level and my mithril fullplate still SAYS its capping my dex AC at 3... or do the first two levels of that not work with mithril?

the armor will say what the cap is, but look around the graphic and look for 'with dex' and the regular armor rating..that number should be diff.

Also, hovering over your ac in your character sheet (ctrl-c) will show what your dex bonus and max dex bonus are at the moment with that armor.

As quick stated about stalwart...and your enhancements can add some too.

[Quikster]

the armor will say what the cap is, but look around the graphic and look for 'with dex' and the regular armor rating..that number should be diff.

Also, hovering over your ac in your character sheet (ctrl-c) will show what your dex bonus and max dex bonus are at the moment with that armor.

As quick stated about stalwart...and your enhancements can add some too.

Right but at level 8 he will receive 0 MDB increase for armor. AT level 12 he will receive 0 MDB increase for MFP in relation to sd. Just wanted to clarify this.

[emptysands]

SD I increases MDB on shields only.

SD II increases MDB on heavy armor and shields only

SD III increases MDB on Medium or Heavy armor and shields

Yeah: +1 MDB for Shields for each SD tier, +1 for Heavy at tier 2 and 3, and +1 for Medium at tier 3.

So:

Medium/Heavy/Shield
0/0/1
0/1/2
1/2/3

[worthful]

2 things:

1 - how badly do you think the proposed TWF fix will hurt this build?

2 - since its a tank build, if you went warforged, would the healing penalty kill the immunities bonus?



EDIT: Changed servers so my toon isn't geared. Decided to run a barb for a little while and grab some gear before remaking my tank. Wow, this no AC thing sucks.

[MrWizard]

2 things:

1 - how badly do you think the proposed TWF fix will hurt this build?

2 - since its a tank build, if you went warforged, would the healing penalty kill the immunities bonus?



EDIT: Changed servers so my toon isn't geared. Decided to run a barb for a little while and grab some gear before remaking my tank. Wow, this no AC thing sucks.

1- not at all

2- not sure what you mean, but your greensteel would be different (and a lot of your build) if you go warforged.

[Paladin63]

I am trying to do your concept, I like it in theory but I am confused. If having the use of the shield is such a vital component of the build, why all the TWF feats? Is that for ease of as you said switching enhancements around and playing kensai in lieu of SD? If one wanted to just concentrate on being a straight S&B SD what feats would be good to replace the TWF feats with or does doing that defeat the entire purpose of the character?

[SirAppleheart]

First off, thanks for a great post/thread MrWizard!

I've been looking this over for a few days now and am pondering a variant on this build tweaked a bit for U5, and adapted to the master race (halfling).

Being a halfling instead will make reaching Dex cap much easier, but at the expense of other stats. The Str drop is only a loss of 1 dmg, some HP, and a bit of healing amp, which is acceptable to look awesome. Improved saves and AC will be nice though. And it will also, if I can fit in the feats, possibly allow using dragonmarks for self-healing. Not that needed at level cap I am sure, but I am a huge fan of them for levelling up. The saves is the big thing it'd add though, as well as the coolness factor of being the toughest little bastard around.

And tough little bastard brings me right on to the second thing I was thinking of swapping around, namely building the char for using Bastard Swords. With the U5 changes of them allowing glancing blows from THF while using a shield means that the 4 feats spent (Khopesh/TWF/ITWF/GTWF with this build vs Bastard Sword/THF/ITHF/GTHF) you'd still have a viable DPSy alternative as well as working well when a Sword 'n Board is preferred. The glancing blows while using SnB will be extra threat as well as extra DPS, which should easily offset the -1 damage per swing from the lower halfling strength.

All in all it'd be the same build though, just smaller.

[Rydlic]

First off, thanks for a great post/thread MrWizard!

I've been looking this over for a few days now and am pondering a variant on this build tweaked a bit for U5, and adapted to the master race (halfling).

Being a halfling instead will make reaching Dex cap much easier, but at the expense of other stats. The Str drop is only a loss of 1 dmg, some HP, and a bit of healing amp, which is acceptable to look awesome. Improved saves and AC will be nice though. And it will also, if I can fit in the feats, possibly allow using dragonmarks for self-healing. Not that needed at level cap I am sure, but I am a huge fan of them for levelling up. The saves is the big thing it'd add though, as well as the coolness factor of being the toughest little bastard around.

And tough little bastard brings me right on to the second thing I was thinking of swapping around, namely building the char for using Bastard Swords. With the U5 changes of them allowing glancing blows from THF while using a shield means that the 4 feats spent (Khopesh/TWF/ITWF/GTWF with this build vs Bastard Sword/THF/ITHF/GTHF) you'd still have a viable DPSy alternative as well as working well when a Sword 'n Board is preferred. The glancing blows while using SnB will be extra threat as well as extra DPS, which should easily offset the -1 damage per swing from the lower halfling strength.

All in all it'd be the same build though, just smaller.

At the sacrifice of a Feat, Healing Amp, you will come out with +1-2 AC, halflings get a +1 ac for being small.

[SirAppleheart]

At the sacrifice of a Feat, Healing Amp, you will come out with +1-2 AC, halflings get a +1 ac for being small.

Yeah, one conveniently stacking AC. And the saves. Never forget about the saves!