The Cannon Fodder Tank, The Kensai/Stalwart Build

[worthful]

Well theres a +6 protection item, but its on a ring slot. Armor gives another 2-3 depending on your dex. An epic shield lets you max dex without ap on ts enhancements, but you lose 3 dr i think, so it comes down to ap or dr. I chose ap, but i can see arguments for either side. +4 dex tomes but those drop in 1 non epic raid. Thats really about it.

The pro rings a bummer, but I am holding out hope for a +6 protection somewhere else, maybe epic shroud min II item? Also hoping for +4 dodge chattering ring which would make dt even better than it is now, but prolly still not enough for me to go back to it. Time will tell i guess.

1 - Epic shroud min II? I've only run shroud maybe 3 or 4 times on my cleric (well, 3 or 4 completions. lag and idiocy has failed me about 3 or 4 more runs. 2 runs ago in part 2 my raid pulled all 4 guys to the same spot.) Anyway, my question: is there a difference between epic shroud items and normal shroud items? Or did you just mean fully upgraded shroud item?

2 - ****** quikster, where is your build? =P

3 - My server (argosomething) was full the other day so I made a toon on the server at the bottom of the list. I didn't get very far before I left for the day (oddly enough to go play PNP DND - can't get away I guess) so I'm dirt poor along the way. How difficult would it be to change this to a THF build, and would that severely gimp me? The way I see it:

PROS - cheaper, doesn't require exotic proficiency so it frees up a feat - PA perhaps? (=P) More likely I'd still take an exotic weapon though, either dwarven axes or bastard swords for the upcoming changes while wielding a shield. glancing blows add some nice procs for the 12/13 - 16/17 range when paralyzing weapons are useful, before DPS becomes the desired route. At least my understanding is that glancing blows can proc the effects of weapons.

CONS - lower dps? more people seem to prefer TWF for this reason. barbarians seem to rule the day with THF, everyone else with TWF (exploiter, monks, rogues, most kensai, the 14/6/2 builds...) "wasted" ability points. You still need a high dex for the AC portion of the build (at least the 15 I'd assume) which takes away from what could be added into STR for DPS since dex means nothing to your DPS when you THF. Technically its not wasted because it boosts your AC, but in terms for DPS its a waste.

Its a pretty simple change in terms of feats - just change them all over to THF line, etc etc...


How do you guys think it will pan out?

[Quikster]

1 - Epic shroud min II? I've only run shroud maybe 3 or 4 times on my cleric (well, 3 or 4 completions. lag and idiocy has failed me about 3 or 4 more runs. 2 runs ago in part 2 my raid pulled all 4 guys to the same spot.) Anyway, my question: is there a difference between epic shroud items and normal shroud items? Or did you just mean fully upgraded shroud item?

2 - ****** quikster, where is your build? =P

3 - My server (argosomething) was full the other day so I made a toon on the server at the bottom of the list. I didn't get very far before I left for the day (oddly enough to go play PNP DND - can't get away I guess) so I'm dirt poor along the way. How difficult would it be to change this to a THF build, and would that severely gimp me? The way I see it:

PROS - cheaper, doesn't require exotic proficiency so it frees up a feat - PA perhaps? (=P) More likely I'd still take an exotic weapon though, either dwarven axes or bastard swords for the upcoming changes while wielding a shield. glancing blows add some nice procs for the 12/13 - 16/17 range when paralyzing weapons are useful, before DPS becomes the desired route. At least my understanding is that glancing blows can proc the effects of weapons.

CONS - lower dps? more people seem to prefer TWF for this reason. barbarians seem to rule the day with THF, everyone else with TWF (exploiter, monks, rogues, most kensai, the 14/6/2 builds...) "wasted" ability points. You still need a high dex for the AC portion of the build (at least the 15 I'd assume) which takes away from what could be added into STR for DPS since dex means nothing to your DPS when you THF. Technically its not wasted because it boosts your AC, but in terms for DPS its a waste.

Its a pretty simple change in terms of feats - just change them all over to THF line, etc etc...


How do you guys think it will pan out?

There is no shroud epic yet, that was a pure speculation.

Shroud can be a pita when youre new, remember some of us had to run shroud for a very long time as the main end game raid. We even did things to make it more fun like see which server could do it the fastest (Khyber beat our 13 minute run i think) all silver flame club shroud, all dreamspitter shroud, all rogue shroud, all ranged shroud, all cleric shroud, all sorc shroud, all bard shroud, all paly shroud, etc. So many of us can run shroud in our sleep, lag or not.

Nothing wrong with a thf defender. You still are going to want some dex for ac though, which is why many go ahead and go twf.


Edit:: My Fighter

[worthful]

There is no shroud epic yet, that was a pure speculation.

Shroud can be a pita when youre new, remember some of us had to run shroud for a very long time as the main end game raid. We even did things to make it more fun like see which server could do it the fastest (Khyber beat our 13 minute run i think) all silver flame club shroud, all dreamspitter shroud, all rogue shroud, all ranged shroud, all cleric shroud, all sorc shroud, all bard shroud, all paly shroud, etc. So many of us can run shroud in our sleep, lag or not.

Nothing wrong with a thf defender. You still are going to want some dex for ac though, which is why many go ahead and go twf.


Edit:: My Fighter

I keep entertaining the idea of trying to join a guild that could get me better shroud runs / exp parties. Even on my main (17 cleric) its a ***** and a half finding groups doing exp quests. Basically my choices are run shroud or shroud flagging quests. Every once in a while theres a chance at running hound as well, but for the most part late game groups don't exist when I'm online.



If I went THF, couldn't I drop dex to 14 with very little / no penalty in the long run, since 15 is an odd number so basically is the same as 15? It could save me a few points and allow me to boost int higher probably.


EDIT: if THF, do I need to do twitch fighting? =\ I read a thread on that the other day. Pretty annoying actually how people would say "if they removed twitch fighting I'd quit the game" - thats the kind of people who ruin MMOs. "What? They're going to fix something that makes me do less dps? Guess it's time to quit the game because I got a nerf." How can you balance the game when people threaten to quit if you do?

/rant


EDIT 2: Also, I'm not sure how Shroud weapon crafting works in terms of how many slots each weapon gets, but it seems that TWF would out do THF just because of the procs. TWF has 2x the procs, doesn't it? Or do 2h weapons get more chant slots to make up for this?

[Quikster]

I keep entertaining the idea of trying to join a guild that could get me better shroud runs / exp parties. Even on my main (17 cleric) its a ***** and a half finding groups doing exp quests. Basically my choices are run shroud or shroud flagging quests. Every once in a while theres a chance at running hound as well, but for the most part late game groups don't exist when I'm online.



If I went THF, couldn't I drop dex to 14 with very little / no penalty in the long run, since 15 is an odd number so basically is the same as 15? It could save me a few points and allow me to boost int higher probably.


EDIT: if THF, do I need to do twitch fighting? =\ I read a thread on that the other day. Pretty annoying actually how people would say "if they removed twitch fighting I'd quit the game" - thats the kind of people who ruin MMOs. "What? They're going to fix something that makes me do less dps? Guess it's time to quit the game because I got a nerf." How can you balance the game when people threaten to quit if you do?

/rant

Lol yeah twitch is more dps.

As far as stats, depends on what tomes you plan on, what gear, what enhancements. Some builds are better off starting odd, others even. Most of that is negated with reincarnation however.

[worthful]

Worthful 
Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(20 Fighter) 
Hit Points: 282
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 8
Will: 9

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 5 (Fighter)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Bullheaded
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword


Level 7 (Fighter)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Intimidate


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave

So..at 20th level I had no idea what to use my fighter feat for, which means I'd have to reorganize them. I'm going to post this for now, see what flaming (read:suggestions) I get and move from there. There is a lot of room for reorganization in this.

The only thing I'm worried about here is I have a ton of DPS feats, it seems like this is going to gimp my AC. But in all the builds I have read, there isn't a lot of AC feats anyways.

[MrWizard]

you might want to post a new thread and get a lot more info from people since this is only read by a few experienced and mostly new people.

[MrWizard]

new vid showing how to clear the first part of sins elite before putting up an lfm for squishie toons...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkEzcuxN3j8

[emptysands]

new vid showing how to clear the first part of sins elite before putting up an lfm for squishie toons...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkEzcuxN3j8

Nice.

What do you find the is low water (only miss on a 1) and high water (they need a 20) mark for AC in Amarth quests on Normal? How much does it scale with Hard and Elite?

[osirisisis]

how are U getting 7 max dex bounce with dragon touch full plate?

[MrWizard]

how are U getting 7 max dex bounce with dragon touch full plate?

1 plate
3 armor mastery enhance
1 fighter past life
2 stalwart defender III

[Hayder]

Just hit level 8, well, got the xp banked for level 8. This build is awesome, in Deleras on elite, lagged into a room, whole party stuck outside, so I backed into a corner, SD on and a couple of minutes later, room cleared and still had 3/4 health.

Different quest, rest of the party wiped on last boss, I tanked and finished it. Love it.

However, I made the mistake of going True Neutral, so I might need to reroll to go Lawful Good for Choasgardes. Is there anything else I can use to replace them, or is a reroll my only option? Are there any Stability items that could make up for it?

[worthful]

With a 32 point build you can create a similar WF tank, statwise. In fact, I'm currently looking at:

15str
15dex
15con
13int
6wis
12cha


Wis is a dump because of FoP, but with WF some of the need for that dies anyway. Other than lacking a feat and skillpoints while leveling, is there any other reason not to go WF? Do docents give similar armor bonuses, or is that where the real problem lies? Thats the only one I can think of myself - the feats you would have to take for the armor to catch up plus the docents aren't as good as real armor. Sound accurate?


EDIT: Sorry for being a newb. My first search through the post I didn't see why you chose human. Second time around I found it.

[MrWizard]

Different quest, rest of the party wiped on last boss, I tanked and finished it. Love it.

However, I made the mistake of going True Neutral, so I might need to reroll to go Lawful Good for Choasgardes. Is there anything else I can use to replace them, or is a reroll my only option? Are there any Stability items that could make up for it?

chaosgardes can still be worn, just gotta get your umd at some point to 20, even if only for a second or two. At higher levels it will always be over 20, not an issue.
Low level like you are, really hard to get to 20.

4 gh
1 voice of master
3 golden cartouche
1-5 human versatility
------------------
9-13 in buffs and items.

7 needed ranks

7 ranks = 11th level....

so at 11 you could probably buff up to put them on for the dungeon

There are no other options for dodge 2 that I know of.

glad you enjoyed it so far.

I really liked leveling him up too.

[Quikster]

Just hit level 8, well, got the xp banked for level 8. This build is awesome, in Deleras on elite, lagged into a room, whole party stuck outside, so I backed into a corner, SD on and a couple of minutes later, room cleared and still had 3/4 health.

Different quest, rest of the party wiped on last boss, I tanked and finished it. Love it.

However, I made the mistake of going True Neutral, so I might need to reroll to go Lawful Good for Choasgardes. Is there anything else I can use to replace them, or is a reroll my only option? Are there any Stability items that could make up for it?

TN is better anywho, dont bother to change it.

[Hayder]

chaosgardes can still be worn, just gotta get your umd at some point to 20, even if only for a second or two. At higher levels it will always be over 20, not an issue.
Low level like you are, really hard to get to 20.

Ah, I kept wondering why it had (UMD 20) on weapons/gear I couldn't use, that explains it.

TN is better anywho, dont bother to change it.

Really? Would you mind explaining the reasons? Is it down to gear availability or something?

[Sk1zz1k]

n1z build

very thx @ MrWizard

thx & greetz from germany

Sk1zz1k

[Hayder]

Read the whole thread and you'll find a build. I'm not going to say what page as you do need to read the whole thread. There is so much useful information that helps you understand the build that little bit better. Without it, the build is just a build.

[Quikster]

Ah, I kept wondering why it had (UMD 20) on weapons/gear I couldn't use, that explains it.



Really? Would you mind explaining the reasons? Is it down to gear availability or something?

TN lets you not take damage from many alignment based attacks, and lets you use lotd without a penalty.

LG lets you use 1 item (raise dead clickie) that has no umd check, otherwise you can umd any weapon needed.

[MrWizard]

shield bash...hmmm..

Improved shield bash feat allows you to keep your AC while bashing, that would mean shield block ac too.

Hmmm... Add
improved shield bash and power attack... with PA on, would lose 5 ac from Combat expertise, but make up for it by staying blocked.

hmmmm...

Shield 1d12 +5 damage.

1d12 + 5 + 12 str + 5 PA +5 Human boost + other buffs = ~44 damage + other buffs.
Add to that on a crit (only on a 20 unless imp crit bludgeon) which gives +2
~44 + 6 bloodstone x 2 = 100 damage.

imp crit bludgeon....19- 20 crit for 100 points

not adding in bard buffs or other damage buffs.

You know, that is really a lot of damage for a shield if you think about it.

However, most mobs have a DR that I do not think a shield could get through (no metalline shields)
A paladin could make it holy.

I think I am gonna search for some cool shields and test it out on my other toon.



That is a lot of damage. Add in bard buffs and some other pots and such and you are doing near 150 damage on a crit...while shield blocking.

That is rather impressive. More than I thought it would be.


==================================
During testing....

learned that although a shield bash is your one attack while shield blocking, your strength damage is halved as if it were a offhand weapon.

Flametouched shields do get through DR of good against an orthon.
Was not able to test mithral as silver.

Heavy shields do way less than tower shields (1d12 versus 1d6)
All other damage bonuses seem to apply.

Attacking while keeping DR made it real easy. However, without quality DR breaking shields, as in for raid bosses, this is not so good.

I did find one good shield, but it was a heavy shield. 'Ward of undeath' is flametouched. Worked good on a named orthon, right through is DR. With no damage buffs it was
1d6 + 6 for damage, x2 on crit, it did take my bloodstone into that, I critted for
1d6 +6 + 6 x2 for about 31. (no other buffs)

my str was 36 for a +13, but halved it still only gave me +6... ;(

Leviks, which is mithral (and possibly acts as silver) rarely ever got through the DR of the orthon (20 I think).


it is also -3 to hit over your main weapon.


although my blocking DR is 39, I did see one part of the combat log where '45 points of damage was blocked by damage reduction' making me think the inventory listing of 39 is wrong and it is much higher (or shield bash added more than normal)

the named orthon was the one by sins. Although damage output per swing was low, it is notable that in the entire battle he did not do a single point of damage to me. Not 1.

If that attack damage could be boosted to around 40, with a x2 crit on a 19-20 it would make it quite awesome.


it would be interesting to note that the 45 DR, while bashing, should bock many spells and for the most part make AC meaningless (if imp. shield bash feat is added to keep DR)




edit: there was one point where he did 18 damage, of which only 10 was blocked by DR. That is odd. The shield I was testing had less DR than leviks though..and my inventory said my blocking dr was 28.
that will take some thought.


edit : ward of undeath has DR4. SD gives 6... not sure of where the that 10 comes from come from. Maybe you do not get full blocking DR when shield bashing. Hard to tell


edit: stone skin was giving me an extra 6dr......figure that one out....how does the number 4 come into that equation?
it obviously is being taken away (stoneskin) before my other DR kicks in, but only 6 of it at a time...odd



Shield damage

base damage + 5 + 1/2 str modifier
(losing half damage bites, this should be full strength damage since you are not dual wielding)

pluses....
2 good hope
12 inspire courage
5 human damage boost
0-1 (possible madstone affect)
0-1 rage
5 power attack

Crit stuff
x2 shields
19-20 with imp crit bludgeoning
+6 bloodstone


There are a myriad of other things you can come across that will help do more damage, I could not list them all as no one has ever done a thread on all of them.

heavy shield = 1d6 +5
Tower = 1d12 + 5

base + 5
12 (34 -37 strength mod)
14 bard buffs
5 damage boost
5 power attack
1 rage/madstone/whatever
---------------------------
base + 42 damage
crit = (base + 48) x 2 = 96 + (1-12)

if a barb, that is what another x2 on the crit for x4? Plus all the str bonus and damage bonus....~250-300 for a shield bash? Not bad.

Kensai makes it 17-20 cirt..but you would have to make a shield your sig weapon...HA HA HA


Madstone- due to str mod at half, a single madstone might bring you to a even number mod gaining you one damage, or a double madstone will give you +4 strength resulting in 1 damage modifier.

rage - only adds to to str with is 1/2 damage mod. It would only add one if you needed two to get an even str mod.

[worthful]

Another random update:


Ran Tempest's Spine at level 7. Had the most AC by far (31 compared to my 45) Did the usual Taunt and block thing. Nothing in there could hit me. This build is really starting to shine. I did drop Shield Mastery for OTWF for now. I've noticed a huge problem with my hit on harder quests, so any boost I've found almost necessary. So far that and the will save thing are the only problems I've encountered.