Making Epic Dungeons

[Borror0]

While I know they cannot cater expressly to vets, it would be unwise to ignore their views.

Actually, Epic probably comes from our requests.

There was a time where the developers believed that we wouldn't like them reusing existing dungeons.

"Wow! The scenery in VoN 6 is awesome! And A DRAGON! OOH! Look how big she is! Wait...what? I have to run around bases and break pillars? And...now that we're at the dragon, she isn't going to move, and only one person gets to go fight the unmoving dragon? And I'm not allowed to move from this spot, throw spells or fire ranged attacks at the dragon from here because it will wipe the raid? Uh...I thought this was going to be cool..."

+1 rep for a good description of The Plane of Night.

[Lorichie]

Actually, Epic probably comes from our requests.

There was a time where the developers believed that we wouldn't like them reusing existing dungeons.

+1 rep for a good description of The Plane of Night.

I remember those threads as well, and myself even voted for a new diff level added. i suspect that at the time we were "hungry" and were willing to take whatever we could get, and now that hunger's been eased a bit, so we forget how hungry we were not so long ago.

Human nature i guess. I agree with Mem. i would like to see something new from scratch epicly added. I would also like to see new quests added, as well as quests we have eventually all have epic challenge level, not all need to have epic loot.

I honestly believe that in the future we will see all of the above be added, even if its one new one every so often, and refurbished one's more frequently. It'll just take time to get the ball rolling.

Imo remember, Imo.

R

[Junts]

I will not do Epic VON6 unless Velah is actually changed to be entertaining and not just made more powerful .. that AI is absolutely the worst, stupidest, most immersion-breaking, unfun raid fight in all DDO. I would love me some epic kundarak delving boots, but its not worth the stupid that is that dragon's behavior.

Please, delete the entire von6 instance and re-design it for all 4 difficulties.

note: this from someone running epic desert quests 2-4 a day, not an epic hater here

But von6 is the single worst designed instance associated with any raid on DDO.

[moorewr]

I was vocal in those threads - but not for what we got. I said "I'd be 100% behind any shortcuts that mean more new quests. Content before all other things." That's not the same as replicating the existing quest in its entirety. Certainly there needed to be a way to take lower level raids and make them appropriate to the endgame.

Still, feel free to blame me.

[Borror0]

i suspect that at the time we were "hungry" and were willing to take whatever we could get, and now that hunger's been eased a bit, so we forget how hungry we were not so long ago.

That's my call, too. I even suspected that would be the case when reading that thread months ago.

Though, that was easy to predict. It's even a design law: "Despite your best intentions, any change will be looked upon as a bad change to a large percentage of your players. Even those who forgot they asked for it to begin with."

[ArkoHighStar]

Part of the problem right now is that Turbine chose a much older raid/quest series to start with, with items with a very low ML 9-11. These items are not exactly state of the art anymore(with a few exceptions). I imagine as we get higher lvl quests done we will see some more desirable items pop up, and that overall we will see a 20% really good upgrade vs 50% so so upgrade and a 30% downright crappy upgrade for all items regardless of item level. This is no different than what we have today with regular named loot with about 20% of it being very valuable, and the rest not as much.

[Lorichie]

---- what we wee today with-----

Weeeeee......ahem...k, im done

R

[ArkoHighStar]

Weeeeee......ahem...k, im done

R

Christ I need a spell checker

[Angelus_dead]

I daresay (dare, dare I say!) that a level 18 quest ran at Elite (what you equate to level 20)

I never said anything like that.

is not the same as a level 20 Quest ran on normal nor an Epic Quest.

This is not a time to ask what things are, but what they should be.

Prior to the introduction of this epic content, what percentage of a level-capped character's time was spent in Elite mode versus Normal mode? What percentage of all total Shroud runs were Elite instead of Normal? I think 1% would be an overestimation.

Previously top-level content came in Normal modes that are fairly easy, with an option for Elite to be much tougher with only slightly better rewards. Given that the designers had some reason to do it that way, does it make sense for the only version of the adventure pack for top-level characters to be more like Elite than Normal?

[Naash]

I will not do Epic VON6 unless Velah is actually changed to be entertaining and not just made more powerful .. that AI is absolutely the worst, stupidest, most immersion-breaking, unfun raid fight in all DDO. I would love me some epic kundarak delving boots, but its not worth the stupid that is that dragon's behavior.

Please, delete the entire von6 instance and re-design it for all 4 difficulties.

note: this from someone running epic desert quests 2-4 a day, not an epic hater here

But von6 is the single worst designed instance associated with any raid on DDO.

Its like fighting a turret on a battleship.
Pretty lame when compared to the dragons of Tor and the white dragon in Reavers Refuge.

[Cyr]

Part of the problem right now is that Turbine chose a much older raid/quest series to start with, with items with a very low ML 9-11. These items are not exactly state of the art anymore(with a few exceptions). I imagine as we get higher lvl quests done we will see some more desirable items pop up, and that overall we will see a 20% really good upgrade vs 50% so so upgrade and a 30% downright crappy upgrade for all items regardless of item level. This is no different than what we have today with regular named loot with about 20% of it being very valuable, and the rest not as much.

Actually that would be a huge design failure. If initially higher level quests were made to have significantly better loot when made into epic then people again would only run those quests...thus defeating the entire purpose of epic (getting a wider variety of quests into the end game rotation reducing the feeling of not enough content at cap). Nor could they make these quests harder then the current epic stuff and have any hopes that they would be run normal as the difficulty level on the current epic stuff is fairly high.

The real solution here is to make sure every epic item is valuable in some way. That would mean new item effects not just kind of crappy upgrades to some items.

[sirgog]

Just want to state again (emphatically) how much I hate blanket immunities. There are so many other ways to address problem type spells/weapons to reduce their effectiveness without making them useless.

Examples:

Vorpals - with seeker bonuses any roll of 20 will almost certainly be confirmed by most competent tanks. Instead of addressing the obvious problem by making mobs flat out vorpal-immune do something else, like randomly assigning a chance that a mob will have deathward up or giving them "reverse seeker" enhancement which deducts from your confirm crit roll.

Stat damage - reduce proc rate aka giants in prey on the hunter

Instakill spells/weapons - double save dynamic or instakill equates not to death but a very large damage output equal to a significant chunk of their hp.

Blanket immunities just aren't fun.

The blanket immunites are a little less than you might think.

These mobs are not immune to stat damage - effects that cause stat damage instead cause 4 less stat damage than normal. So a crit from a WoP weapon deals an average of 1 Con damage to them instead of 4.5; and a crit from a Puncturing weapon an average of 0.5 instead of 3.5. (They are totally unaffected by standard Wounders).

Were I a Dev, I'd change this ward to cause 2 less stat damage than normal - that's an average of 2.5 stat damage per crit (WoP) or 1.67 (Puncturing) - this starts to become noticeable but isn't overwhelming.

Vorpals, as you say, are worthless in Epic, but Vorpals are weak almost everywhere in game anyway (as basically everything can either be killed in under 20 hits by DPS or is immune; only real exceptions are Subterrane barbazu, Drakarav the vampire in hard/elite PoP, and maybe a couple others I'm forgetting). If Vorpals were changed to deal 500 damage to foes with blanket immunities to them (immunities not caused by Deathward), they'd remain vendor trash in most situations - were it 1000 damage, they'd start to have some merit.

Personally, if I were a Dev, I'd allow insta-kill spells to do 2000 damage on Epic (on a failed save). They'd still be weak as they would be hard to land (most Epic mobs have extremely high Fort saves, and it's not like extended Mass Suggestion is overpowered in Epic despite taking all mobs that fail their save out of combat for 60 seconds).

[sirgog]

While I like the idea of the Epic quests, I'm sorry if I just cannot get as excited about them as I would over actual new content. Epic, to me, just feels like a desperate attempt to extend content in the game by recycling old material with slightly new twists - and only moderately appealing carrots dangled to lure us in. The carrots themselves aren't new either... just Fabreeze'd versions of old stuff.


I'd be impressed by a 100% new Epic dungeon - and all that that implies. With Epic being the only setting that exists for that new dungeon. But, to be going back and messing around under the hood of old quests... It's just adding new grind to done-to-death quests, imho.

An interesting read, yes... but sadly nothing mentioned in the way of New.

I've been *much* more excited by the Epic quests myself than I was by the Path of Inspiration chain.

The Epic quests have required teamwork every time I've run them - even on Elite the Path of Inspiration stuff can be blindly zerged except for the traps and one or two of the fights. Epic has required players to work out tactics, discuss them, and even after nearly a month, there's still plenty on room for innovation.

The following tactic, however, beats all the Path content on any difficulty assuming no prior knowledge of traps: "Rogue scout ahead invisible looking for trap. If no trap, have the Cleric/FvS run into any room with 4+ mobs and Bladebarrier them all to death, or melee them if 1-3 mobs. If there is a trap, rogue try to disable, if unable, rogue trip trap". Or if you have no Clr/FvS, replace 'bladebarrier them all to death' with 'Wail until there are <4 then melee' or 'cast Mass Suggestion until there are <4 uncharmed ones, then melee'. If you have no rogue (or are not confident in their Spot skill) send someone else ahead, preferably evasive.

Epics on the other hand have required strategy. Casters have looked at spells such as Halt Undead (and to a lesser extent Incendiary Cloud) in an all-new light. Weighted weapons have gone from a bad joke to amazing (yes, Tenderizer is now one of the best raid items in the game). And epic items (whilst I hate the scroll system) have presented a whole new Shroud-style rush to find out just what everything does. Perhaps we will see this when the Suppressed Powers cease being suppressed, perhaps not.

There are still things I'd have done differently, however. These are:

1) Make the displayed quest level accurately reflect the quest difficulty (IMO Wiz-King should be level 22, Offering, Chains and DQ2 level 23 and DQ1 level 24). Future Epics should vary from 21 to 25, with most 22 or 23.
2) Do away with the Scrolls and make the Seals tradable (but not the Shards). This would keep epic items somewhat tough to create, but removes any potential for ninja-looting and keeps an aspect of trading in the game.
3) Have DQ1 award two epic dungeon tokens. It's far too hard to be worth running otherwise (although it is easy to brute force with heavy resource usage, I'm just not a fan of using 500 Heal scrolls and either 10 mana potions or 2 dragonshard-turnin Rest of the Eladrin statues each run, and that's in groups that are strong enough to not even use all the shrines in Wiz-King).
4) I'd add a few fully tradeable named items (min level 16 to 19) that only drop in the Epic quests. Some of these would be useful in Epics (say a set of +5 Holy Handwraps of Weighted 4%) and others would be more useful elsewhere (say a +5 Holy Silver Longsword of Evil Outsider Bane - note this is not 'greater bane' just 'bane'). Just as people still run The Cursed Crypt or Bloodstone/Greaves chests for named items (whether they can use the items or just want to trade them), this would create some new excitement in Epics, plus alternatives to grinding the Shroud over and over to get 'Epic ready'.
5) I'd seriously consider allowing +3 *unbound* tomes to drop in Epics, but only from the purple epic chests. Elite Litany of the Dead was extremely popular to run when it was the only farmable source of +2 unbound tomes. If you don't do this, I'd add +4 bound-to-character tomes to the raids in addition to the +3 binds-to-account tomes.

[Solmage]

While I like the idea of the Epic quests, I'm sorry if I just cannot get as excited about them as I would over actual new content. Epic, to me, just feels like a desperate attempt to extend content in the game by recycling old material with slightly new twists - and only moderately appealing carrots dangled to lure us in. The carrots themselves aren't new either... just Fabreeze'd versions of old stuff.

Actually, I couldn't disagree more. To be the worst part was to leave behind really fun quests and cherished raid items. I can't emphasize enough how thrilled I am by the choice to go epic. (I also wish however that many of the items in the desert had been made actually epic... or simply left alone in non-epic status - we don't need to dilute the pool of good items to make acquiring those almost impossible)

So while I think that the fact that several items are very disappointing, epic itself is the best idea ever.

[Auran82]

The problem I am seeing so far with the epic quests is that it seems no-one really runs chains of flame on epic, simply because there aren't really any decent shards in there to strive for and the quest is somewhat longer and more difficult than the other 2 flagging quests and the raid.

People are running offering because of the gloves and to a lesser extent Wizking for Vambracers, Bracers of Deftness, Spectacles of Spirit Sight and to a lesser extent Sirocco (hey, it looks cool)

It has been difficult finding a group for DQ1 epic though due not so much to the difficulty as such, just the length compared to the amount of mana required (maybe all casters and clerics/fvs were assumed to have the bauble and epic spell storing ring) compared to the number of shrines (1!)

I agree with Sirgog, either get rid of the scrolls altogether, make them drop as rare collectables from collectable bag drops in the epic quests instead of being separate or allow them to be bought (as Bound to account) from Misty for epic tokens.

[sirgog]

It has been difficult finding a group for DQ1 epic though due not so much to the difficulty as such, just the length compared to the amount of mana required (maybe all casters and clerics/fvs were assumed to have the bauble and epic spell storing ring) compared to the number of shrines (1!)

I'm happy to run DQ1 again, if the group gives me 20k PP *each* to cover costs, and I know everyone in the group to be solid players. That will let me buy a bunch of Eberron Dragonshard Fragments (to get Rest of the Eladrin statues) and the hundreds of heal scrolls needed.

Worse than having only one shrine is the placement of the one shrine about 80% of the way through the quest.

[sephiroth1084]

Actually, Epic probably comes from our requests.

There was a time where the developers believed that we wouldn't like them reusing existing dungeons.

+1 rep for a good description of The Plane of Night.

Haha! Thanks Borr. Better be careful, I'm getting near to the point where I'll be able to give you neg rep!

Few comments:
1. I've always suggested that whenever "Boss Immunity" deflects a special attack, the boss should pay for it by losing an amount of hitpoints as damage. If that kind of effect were given to epic mobs (whether or not bosses also get it), then you could potentially use Vorpal to make them die faster, but not instantly.
I've always been against this sort of change, as I see it as negating the need for standard DPS weapons. What I imagine occurring, is that rather than having some monsters you try to vorpal (and insta-kill), and others you try to DPS, you just use vorpals almost all of the time as against some monsters it just kills them, and against others it does big damage. Seems almost impossible to me to find a balance point where it would be worth using, yet not the very best choice in every situation.

I'd much rather see some attempt to remove blanket immunities in favor something else, like high CL defensive buffs that we can try to dispel, but will require a very good roll, or changing defensive buffs (like DW, FoM, NP, etc...) to not grant immunity, but something close (grants a bonus and a reroll on a failed save?).
2. In D&D 4e, Vorpal just adds a lot of damage on crits. There's a reason they did that.
Bleh! There are some things I like about 4E (healing surges, increased tactical focus, ease of character building, flexibility in respec'ing), but the critical effects, and especially the Vorpal were not one of them. I just don't see a jaberwocky being very afraid of a 4E vorpal blade, and I don't imagine it going "snickerty-snack."
3. In around DDO module 3, Sap was changed to have no saving throw, so the Weighted weapon property had its Sap bonus replaced with a passive chance to stun on each swing. That was observed to be a minor game design flaw, because it was a percent chance of doom that couldn't be mitigated by the monster's Fortitude. But at its peak it worked like a "slow vorpal": A weighted 5% weapon would have about the same chance to immediately doom a monster as a vorpal did, except that it took a few auto-crits after he was stunned to finish him off. Tactically the effect was almost as good. But now that these epic mobs have immunity to Vorpal but not stunning, Weighted -> Maul/Pick is the best way to melee them.

Yeah, the weighted thing strikes me as being very odd.

[Borror0]

Haha! Thanks Borr. Better be careful, I'm getting near to the point where I'll be able to give you neg rep!

Meh. Bring it on.

EDIT: While I'm spamming, I'll mention that I share the same issues as you with 4e Vorpal weapons and damage being dealt if the boss is immune to the effect.

[sephiroth1084]

Meh. Bring it on.

What, you don't think that I can take down your bazillion favor all by my lonesome? Be afraid, Borr! Be afraid!

[Hakushi]

Basically we had gotten a lot of requests to change the Vault of Night dragon raid so that you didn't have to reflag for it every single time. It was a real undertaking. But since Torc and Purplefooz had to crack those quests open to start fiddling with Epic versions anyway, they took the liberty of setting it up so that you only need to flag for it once on any difficulty, not just epic.

As I understand it, they've informed me that you will also be able to do the quests out of order, rather than HAVING to do von 1 then 2 then 3 then 4 in that exact order.

Nice, very nice. That's very good news Tolero, this will bring back life to the dragon raid. Thank you.