Making Epic Dungeons

[Tolero]

Join developers Torc, Piloto, and Eladrin as they discuss one of the new dungeon features in DDO Unlimited! Click here!

[Cyr]

Interesting read, but did not really have any new information in it besides the hint that Von 5/6 are going to be made epic. I would really like to see some discussion about what the real goals of epic content from a design standpoint are as well as the logic behind the truly wide split of the quality of epic gear. I'm a fan of epic stuff, even though a decision was made to make AC essentially worthless again. Oh and another big question I've had is what 'level' are these epic quests supposed to be. They clearly are much higher then a normal level 20 dungeon design would have been based upon damage scaling, hp scaling, to hit scaling, and armor class scaling.

[Samadhi]

Please take note of how many people are not really enjoying epic, due to the simple fact that it is the same freakin dungeons we had already run for a long time, just with added time constraints since they have so many HP

[Dcloak]

I've enjoyed the challenge of the epic dungeons thus far.

I just don't agree with some of the epic items not being so epic, imo.

[RobbinB]

Just want to state again (emphatically) how much I hate blanket immunities. There are so many other ways to address problem type spells/weapons to reduce their effectiveness without making them useless.

Examples:

Vorpals - with seeker bonuses any roll of 20 will almost certainly be confirmed by most competent tanks. Instead of addressing the obvious problem by making mobs flat out vorpal-immune do something else, like randomly assigning a chance that a mob will have deathward up or giving them "reverse seeker" enhancement which deducts from your confirm crit roll.

Stat damage - reduce proc rate aka giants in prey on the hunter

Instakill spells/weapons - double save dynamic or instakill equates not to death but a very large damage output equal to a significant chunk of their hp.

Blanket immunities just aren't fun.

[Memnir]

While I like the idea of the Epic quests, I'm sorry if I just cannot get as excited about them as I would over actual new content. Epic, to me, just feels like a desperate attempt to extend content in the game by recycling old material with slightly new twists - and only moderately appealing carrots dangled to lure us in. The carrots themselves aren't new either... just Fabreeze'd versions of old stuff.


I'd be impressed by a 100% new Epic dungeon - and all that that implies. With Epic being the only setting that exists for that new dungeon. But, to be going back and messing around under the hood of old quests... It's just adding new grind to done-to-death quests, imho.

An interesting read, yes... but sadly nothing mentioned in the way of New.

[Shandi]

Just want to state again (emphatically) how much I hate blanket immunities. There are so many other ways to address problem type spells/weapons to reduce their effectiveness without making them useless.

Examples:

Vorpals - with seeker bonuses any roll of 20 will almost certainly be confirmed by most competent tanks. Instead of addressing the obvious problem by making mobs flat out vorpal-immune do something else, like randomly assigning a chance that a mob will have deathward up or giving them "reverse seeker" enhancement which deducts from your confirm crit roll.

Stat damage - reduce proc rate aka giants in prey on the hunter

Instakill spells/weapons - double save dynamic or instakill equates not to death but a very large damage output equal to a significant chunk of their hp.

Blanket immunities just aren't fun.

Quote for Truth, I am completely 100% emphatically and absolutely am against blanket immunities, ESPECIALLY For trash mobs, named mobs and end bosses is one thing but trash mobs it is just unfun.

[sephiroth1084]

Just want to state again (emphatically) how much I hate blanket immunities. There are so many other ways to address problem type spells/weapons to reduce their effectiveness without making them useless.

Examples:

Vorpals - with seeker bonuses any roll of 20 will almost certainly be confirmed by most competent tanks. Instead of addressing the obvious problem by making mobs flat out vorpal-immune do something else, like randomly assigning a chance that a mob will have deathward up or giving them "reverse seeker" enhancement which deducts from your confirm crit roll.

Stat damage - reduce proc rate aka giants in prey on the hunter

Instakill spells/weapons - double save dynamic or instakill equates not to death but a very large damage output equal to a significant chunk of their hp.

Blanket immunities just aren't fun.

There was a thread about this a while back in which one of the devs (I want to say Eladrin) posted a few times, in a discussion with myself, Borr, and others (prob A_D). Has anything come of that? Has there been any brainstorming, white-boarding, or even initial coding (holds breath) in trying to find a solution to this very frustrating and unfun mechanic?

[sirgog]

Just want to state again (emphatically) how much I hate blanket immunities. There are so many other ways to address problem type spells/weapons to reduce their effectiveness without making them useless.

Examples:

Vorpals - with seeker bonuses any roll of 20 will almost certainly be confirmed by most competent tanks. Instead of addressing the obvious problem by making mobs flat out vorpal-immune do something else, like randomly assigning a chance that a mob will have deathward up or giving them "reverse seeker" enhancement which deducts from your confirm crit roll.

Stat damage - reduce proc rate aka giants in prey on the hunter

Instakill spells/weapons - double save dynamic or instakill equates not to death but a very large damage output equal to a significant chunk of their hp.

Blanket immunities just aren't fun.

The blanket immunites are a little less than you might think.

These mobs are not immune to stat damage - effects that cause stat damage instead cause 4 less stat damage than normal. So a crit from a WoP weapon deals an average of 1 Con damage to them instead of 4.5; and a crit from a Puncturing weapon an average of 0.5 instead of 3.5. (They are totally unaffected by standard Wounders).

Were I a Dev, I'd change this ward to cause 2 less stat damage than normal - that's an average of 2.5 stat damage per crit (WoP) or 1.67 (Puncturing) - this starts to become noticeable but isn't overwhelming.

Vorpals, as you say, are worthless in Epic, but Vorpals are weak almost everywhere in game anyway (as basically everything can either be killed in under 20 hits by DPS or is immune; only real exceptions are Subterrane barbazu, Drakarav the vampire in hard/elite PoP, and maybe a couple others I'm forgetting). If Vorpals were changed to deal 500 damage to foes with blanket immunities to them (immunities not caused by Deathward), they'd remain vendor trash in most situations - were it 1000 damage, they'd start to have some merit.

Personally, if I were a Dev, I'd allow insta-kill spells to do 2000 damage on Epic (on a failed save). They'd still be weak as they would be hard to land (most Epic mobs have extremely high Fort saves, and it's not like extended Mass Suggestion is overpowered in Epic despite taking all mobs that fail their save out of combat for 60 seconds).

[ArkoHighStar]

Torc is now negotiating with the infamous House Kundarak for their Vault of Night so that you won’t need to reflag to revisit a certain lovely red dragon every time – no matter what difficulty you’re on!

That alone is EPIC win right there

I personally have no issues with doing older dungeons on epic, as long as Turbine keeps giving us new content to go along with it.

I for one relish to see an EPIC CUBE, not that CUBE's are not EPIC already


All HAIL THE CUBE!!

[Tolero]

Interesting read, but did not really have any new information in it besides the hint that Von 5/6 are going to be made epic

Or that regular Von you won't have to constantly reflag, in precise sequential order, for every dragon run.

[Mav145]

Or that regular Von you won't have to constantly reflag, in precise sequential order, for every dragon run.

Huh?

Sorry, I'm a little dense sometimes.

[Tolero]

Huh?

Sorry, I'm a little dense sometimes.

Basically we had gotten a lot of requests to change the Vault of Night dragon raid so that you didn't have to reflag for it every single time. It was a real undertaking. But since Torc and Purplefooz had to crack those quests open to start fiddling with Epic versions anyway, they took the liberty of setting it up so that you only need to flag for it once on any difficulty, not just epic.

As I understand it, they've informed me that you will also be able to do the quests out of order, rather than HAVING to do von 1 then 2 then 3 then 4 in that exact order.

[bobbryan2]

Great news on the VON reflagging.

Great news on making more epic quest.

The epic grind associated with epic items, however... that one I'm going to say is epic fail.

[Mav145]

Basically we had gotten a lot of requests to change the Vault of Night dragon raid so that you didn't have to reflag for it every single time. It was a real undertaking. But since Torc and Purplefooz had to crack those quests open to start fiddling with Epic versions anyway, they took the liberty of setting it up so that you only need to flag for it once on any difficulty, not just epic.

As I understand it, they've informed me that you will also be able to do the quests out of order, rather than HAVING to do von 1 then 2 then 3 then 4 in that exact order.

I think I love you.

[Hakushi]

Basically we had gotten a lot of requests to change the Vault of Night dragon raid so that you didn't have to reflag for it every single time. It was a real undertaking. But since Torc and Purplefooz had to crack those quests open to start fiddling with Epic versions anyway, they took the liberty of setting it up so that you only need to flag for it once on any difficulty, not just epic.

As I understand it, they've informed me that you will also be able to do the quests out of order, rather than HAVING to do von 1 then 2 then 3 then 4 in that exact order.

Nice, very nice. That's very good news Tolero, this will bring back life to the dragon raid. Thank you.

[Rekker]

Basically we had gotten a lot of requests to change the Vault of Night dragon raid so that you didn't have to reflag for it every single time. It was a real undertaking. But since Torc and Purplefooz had to crack those quests open to start fiddling with Epic versions anyway, they took the liberty of setting it up so that you only need to flag for it once on any difficulty, not just epic.

As I understand it, they've informed me that you will also be able to do the quests out of order, rather than HAVING to do von 1 then 2 then 3 then 4 in that exact order.

I don't know why this quest was never converted to work the same way as DQ works ???

Merek asks you for 4 items, you turn them in, when he gets all 4 he says you can head to Von 5 just how Zwabi keeps track of what 3 items you turned in.

Von1 - return the Axe. Upon completion everyone would receive a token that looked like the axe.
Von2 - return the silver mirror.
Von3 - return the Maruts head or some other item.
Von4 - return the Lightning rod same token idea as for Von1.

[maddmatt70]

Basically we had gotten a lot of requests to change the Vault of Night dragon raid so that you didn't have to reflag for it every single time. It was a real undertaking. But since Torc and Purplefooz had to crack those quests open to start fiddling with Epic versions anyway, they took the liberty of setting it up so that you only need to flag for it once on any difficulty, not just epic.

As I understand it, they've informed me that you will also be able to do the quests out of order, rather than HAVING to do von 1 then 2 then 3 then 4 in that exact order.

Are Torc and Purplefooz new staff? If so that is exiting to see Turbine staffing up the DDO staff or perhaps allocating resources from LOTRO to DDO.

[moorewr]

Or that regular Von you won't have to constantly reflag, in precise sequential order, for every dragon run.

oh, hurrah!

[LuckyCuss]

After a lot of work, I managed to make my Fire Storm Greaves epic. As a result, these greaves now have improved fire resistance, the item is now bound to one toon, and the item has a level requirement of 20 instead of 9 so that toon can not use the item since reincarnation has left him below 20th level.

Yes the item does have two slots now, however, since epic came out I have managed to obtain only a few epic quest tokens. Since reincarnation came out there just hasn't been many pugs for epic stuff and to be trueful, I do not enjoy running epic desert quests where most of my spells don't work so I have really lost interest in the whole epic side of things. I finally decide to reincarnate the toon to see how that goes but now I can no longer use this boots even though I am above ninth level.

It seems to me that the epic/recanation thing are really at cross purposes on multiple levels.

For a future release I would like to see a way to make an Epic item "unepic" again for those of us with buyer remorse.