Stop Dumb Changes

[mashedpotato82]

dont cater to all these mmo'ers coming over to ddo try to have it be the other mmo they play. this game is getting mutilated to where its going to be copy infringment to call it d&d...

[Hokiewa]

could you be any more vague?

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Writing Actionable Feedback FAIL.

Garth

[mashedpotato82]

yes it was vague wasnt it?
okay since i dont feel like writing something essay length, heres the most recent thing ive found out.
a few days ago i got this +1 dagger with frost and puncturing, nice (i think to myself) con damage. taking down higher hp critters should be a little easier with thier con getting cut.
then later that day i see on the forum that despite con reducing to 0 monsters will still have 80% of thier hp because of 'monster durability', the mirror for heroic durability only bigger. con reducing to 0 = death, or should...

[Vordax]

yes it was vague wasnt it?
okay since i dont feel like writing something essay length, heres the most recent thing ive found out.
a few days ago i got this +1 dagger with frost and puncturing, nice (i think to myself) con damage. taking down higher hp critters should be a little easier with thier con getting cut.
then later that day i see on the forum that despite con reducing to 0 monsters will still have 80% of thier hp because of 'monster durability', the mirror for heroic durability only bigger. con reducing to 0 = death, or should...

This wasn't done because of people coming from other MMO's, it was done because con damaging opponents to death was trivializing the content.

Vordax

[Junts]

yes it was vague wasnt it?
okay since i dont feel like writing something essay length, heres the most recent thing ive found out.
a few days ago i got this +1 dagger with frost and puncturing, nice (i think to myself)
con damage taking down higher hp critters should be a little easier with thier con getting cut. then later that day i see on the forum that despite con reducing to 0 monsters will still have 80% of thier hp because of 'monster durability', the mirror for heroic durability only bigger. con reducing to 0 = death, or should...

It was that way until very recently. Know what happened?

Lets pick a monster and call him Monster A. He is an ordinary monster in a raid. he has 1500 hit points, which is not all htat many for a monster in a raid. he has a constitution score of 24.

I could take my raid loot greensteel mineral2 Khopesh, which does 40-50 damage per swing, plus 2d6 holy and 1d4 slicing and crits for 130ish 20% of the time, and hit him until he's dead


Alternately, I could wield a Wounding Rapier of Puncturing, which does 1 con damage every hit and 1d6 more on critical hits.

Which do you think kills Monster A faster? Its the rapier.

Now consider what happens when Monster A goes up to 5000 hit points on elite difficulty .... but has the same con because otherwise his fort save would be in the 80s. Now which weapon is faster?

The end result was that the only weapon wanted for a non-boss mob was a wounding of puncturing rapier, unless the mob was immune to con damage (undead/construct). It did not produce very good game play. It was changed after wounding rapiers of puncturing were 20 times more valuable than anything else in the game, and even barbarian s were built piercing-specced around rapiers because itw as better than killing things with an axe and strength.

[Strakeln]

It was that way until very recently. Know what happened?

Lets pick a monster and call him Monster A. He is an ordinary monster in a raid. he has 1500 hit points, which is not all htat many for a monster in a raid. he has a constitution score of 24.

I could take my raid loot greensteel mineral2 Khopesh, which does 40-50 damage per swing, plus 2d6 holy and 1d4 slicing and crits for 130ish 20% of the time, and hit him until he's dead


Alternately, I could wield a Wounding Rapier of Puncturing, which does 1 con damage every hit and 1d6 more on critical hits.

Which do you think kills Monster A faster? Its the rapier.

Now consider what happens when Monster A goes up to 5000 hit points on elite difficulty .... but has the same con because otherwise his fort save would be in the 80s. Now which weapon is faster?

The end result was that the only weapon wanted for a non-boss mob was a wounding of puncturing rapier, unless the mob was immune to con damage (undead/construct). It did not produce very good game play. It was changed after wounding rapiers of puncturing were 20 times more valuable than anything else in the game, and even barbarian s were built piercing-specced around rapiers because itw as better than killing things with an axe and strength.

Call me crazy, but I feel there were at least half a dozen solutions better than this one.

For example, why not tie con score to HP? That would even out the "killing-by-DPS" with the "killing-by-stat-damage". Naturally, we already know the answer... fort saves go through the roof. But tell me... would it really be that difficult to scale down the fort save?

So say you have a mob with 4x the pnp HP equivalent. So make the con score 4x the pnp equivalent, but scale down the con bonus to fort save accordingly.

Ta-dah!

[sephiroth1084]

Call me crazy, but I feel there were at least half a dozen solutions better than this one.

For example, why not tie con score to HP? That would even out the "killing-by-DPS" with the "killing-by-stat-damage". Naturally, we already know the answer... fort saves go through the roof. But tell me... would it really be that difficult to scale down the fort save?

So say you have a mob with 4x the pnp HP equivalent. So make the con score 4x the pnp equivalent, but scale down the con bonus to fort save accordingly.

Ta-dah!

Were you so enamored with your WoPs? I'm not thrilled with stat-damage on the whole anyway as a catch-all solution to difficult encounters.

[Mylon]

The end result was that the only weapon wanted for a non-boss mob was a wounding of puncturing rapier, unless the mob was immune to con damage (undead/construct). It did not produce very good game play. It was changed after wounding rapiers of puncturing were 20 times more valuable than anything else in the game, and even barbarian s were built piercing-specced around rapiers because itw as better than killing things with an axe and strength.

That's just the side effect of giving every mob 20x more hp than it should have.

Many of the changes in this game truly baffle me.

Mobs have 20x more HP than normal to counter the fact that the game only throws us up against maybe 3-4 at a time, plus the occasional big battle with 10-12. This excessive amount of HP is also to counter the fact that players have enhancements that boost their effective level by 2-4 or more and are decked out Monty Hall style with tons of loot. Then to reward this "make the red bar go down" style SR is eliminated for nuke-style spells, which already are super-weak because they can't do nearly enough damage anyway.

[Junts]

That's just the side effect of giving every mob 20x more hp than it should have.

Many of the changes in this game truly baffle me.

Mobs have 20x more HP than normal to counter the fact that the game only throws us up against maybe 3-4 at a time, plus the occasional big battle with 10-12. This excessive amount of HP is also to counter the fact that players have enhancements that boost their effective level by 2-4 or more and are decked out Monty Hall style with tons of loot. Then to reward this "make the red bar go down" style SR is eliminated for nuke-style spells, which already are super-weak because they can't do nearly enough damage anyway.

Not sure which game you're playing, because pnp nukes are almost never subject to spell resistance anyway. The only 'rule adjustment' that benefits nuke spells in DDO (besides no friendly fire) is the lack of touch/ranged touch attacks, and the fact that all touch and ranged touch spells are consequently no-save guaranteed hits as long as the mob doesn't dodge the collision with your projectile.

[RATRACE931]

yes it was vague wasnt it?
okay since i dont feel like writing something essay length, heres the most recent thing ive found out.
a few days ago i got this +1 dagger with frost and puncturing, nice (i think to myself) con damage. taking down higher hp critters should be a little easier with thier con getting cut.
then later that day i see on the forum that despite con reducing to 0 monsters will still have 80% of thier hp because of 'monster durability', the mirror for heroic durability only bigger. con reducing to 0 = death, or should...

This is the "Most Recent" thing you have found out? This was widely debated long before your oh so recent Join Date. I don't see how this pertains to you OP, as this is a DDO and a DDO ONLY issue. Wounding/Punct was altered because it was seen as overpowered. If you cant offer some exact point of what is bothering you much less a way to improve the game please keep your mouth, or at least your fingers, silent.

[Letrii]

Oh sure, let's throw the rules out the window because it trivializes content. Who really cares if it makes things easier? Personally, I play for fun not for the challenge.

[toughguyjoe]

Oh sure, let's throw the rules out the window because it trivializes content. Who really cares if it makes things easier? Personally, I play for fun not for the challenge.

Easy games bore people. they might not bore you, but that puts you in a minority. Sorry son.

[Junts]

Oh sure, let's throw the rules out the window because it trivializes content. Who really cares if it makes things easier? Personally, I play for fun not for the challenge.

Would it be fun if your monk was worthless and unwanted for all high-level questing because it's unable to use a puncturing weapon at all, since there are no piercing monk weapons, and even if they were, the crit ranges would be so bad no one would want you anyway?

[Soulken]

Oh sure, let's throw the rules out the window because it trivializes content. Who really cares if it makes things easier? Personally, I play for fun not for the challenge.

Actually I think those kind of weapons worked better here then they did in pnp, and for me an easy cheat isnt fun.

[Hendrik]

Oh sure, let's throw the rules out the window because it trivializes content. Who really cares if it makes things easier? Personally, I play for fun not for the challenge.

Funny how people want to use the rules when it is to their advantage and yet ignore them when it does not.

You may want to at least familiarize yourself with the game that DDO is based off of.

[sephiroth1084]

yes it was vague wasnt it?
okay since i dont feel like writing something essay length, heres the most recent thing ive found out.
a few days ago i got this +1 dagger with frost and puncturing, nice (i think to myself) con damage. taking down higher hp critters should be a little easier with thier con getting cut.
then later that day i see on the forum that despite con reducing to 0 monsters will still have 80% of thier hp because of 'monster durability', the mirror for heroic durability only bigger. con reducing to 0 = death, or should...

It was that way until very recently. Know what happened?

Lets pick a monster and call him Monster A. He is an ordinary monster in a raid. he has 1500 hit points, which is not all htat many for a monster in a raid. he has a constitution score of 24.

I could take my raid loot greensteel mineral2 Khopesh, which does 40-50 damage per swing, plus 2d6 holy and 1d4 slicing and crits for 130ish 20% of the time, and hit him until he's dead


Alternately, I could wield a Wounding Rapier of Puncturing, which does 1 con damage every hit and 1d6 more on critical hits.

Which do you think kills Monster A faster? Its the rapier.

Now consider what happens when Monster A goes up to 5000 hit points on elite difficulty .... but has the same con because otherwise his fort save would be in the 80s. Now which weapon is faster?

The end result was that the only weapon wanted for a non-boss mob was a wounding of puncturing rapier, unless the mob was immune to con damage (undead/construct). It did not produce very good game play. It was changed after wounding rapiers of puncturing were 20 times more valuable than anything else in the game, and even barbarian s were built piercing-specced around rapiers because itw as better than killing things with an axe and strength.

Oh sure, let's throw the rules out the window because it trivializes content. Who really cares if it makes things easier? Personally, I play for fun not for the challenge.

Junts is right, though I was fairly certain monster HP has never been tied directly to their Con (not just a recentish change) for the reason stated.

The game isn't fun if all of the DPS abilities are trivialized and marginalized in everything but a boss fight because one type of weapon obviates the need for anything else. Barbarians were running around with toothpicks because WoPing something killed it faster than hitting it with a big sword (and raging was only used for the HP, saves and crit range bonus). Sneak Attack became fairly meaningless, as did smite evil (except for improving crit range), divine sacrifice, divine favor, bard songs, the rage spell, fighter's unique bonus feats, etc...

Not fun. Even more not fun if you didn't have one, or ideally two, of these rare items.

Eschewing PnP game rules for balance, fun and challenge in DDO is a necessary part of changing media, just like cutting material from a story is necessary when converting a book to a movie.

I'll argue about some changes that seem unnecessary, or detrimental, but monsters just cannot have HP tied directly to their Con scores in this game--either we'd kill them waaaaay too swiftly, or they would have impossibly high Fort saves, and save DCs (dragon's breath weapons tied to Con score, not sure what else is).

[QuantumFX]

Oh sure, let's throw the rules out the window because it trivializes content. Who really cares if it makes things easier? Personally, I play for fun not for the challenge.

That would have required Puncturing weapons to follow D&D rules correctly in the first place.

[Turial]

...puncturing, nice (i think to myself) con damage. ....

Puncturing here does not work the same as it does in PNP. Our version is vastly better and it made content design difficult. This is why a change was made.

From SRD:
Rapier of Puncturing

Three times per day, this +2 wounding rapier allows the wielder to make a touch attack with the weapon that deals 1d6 points of Constitution damage by draining blood. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to the Constitution damage dealt by this weapon.

[Mani]

dont cater to all these mmo'ers coming over to ddo try to have it be the other mmo they play. this game is getting mutilated to where its going to be copy infringment to call it d&d...

Another satisfied free to play customer….
Thanks for the nerfs Turbine!