YABM - Yet Another Battle Mage

[metalworker]

Metalwalker is currently a TRx1 16/2/2 wiz/fighter/monk THF WF and is doing well.

I like the THF synergy more than TWF for a WF due to enhancements and the benefit of shifting all stat points away from DEX into INT/STR/CON. The TWF is definitely more on the higher dps lines but is expsensive gear-wise and might not in honesty do as well due to tighter feat and stat point allocation. If I had completionist, I think the TWF would be superior, but depending on the number of TRs, the lower TRs you have, the better THF is. I'm still always a fan of WF THF builds so I went ahead with 16/2/2.

These battlecaster builds need the gear to work well, and quite a lot of practice. I do need some advice from the YABM master here :P My main question is: I find myself more and more the nuker than the DC-caster. I can always enervate finger mobs but since I lost wail, I found myself to be the caster that tosses a huge Firewall and fights in it, swings with my Greataxe for quite some damage, and then finish off with a Cone of Cold or Ball Lightning. Otto's irresistable has become my favorite, so do spells like Web. As a result, you can see how this battlecaster plays out: tossing out some disruption while the monsters burn in magic and take some hits from melee. From this change of playstyle compared to a pure caster with nuking and insta-kill abilities, I was thinking if a sorc version of the build would be more viable, since sorcs have a bigger sp capacity, not to mention that they benefit more from the sp items in the game, and CHA skills are more important than INT skills.

The pros of sorc:
- more sp, more spells, more nuking, more web/otto's
- faster casting
- CHA skills more relevant (intimidate, UMD, ?haggle)

The cons of sorc:
- limited spell selection
- much less feats (big problem!)
- worse off DC-based spells

However, when I look at the way I play, I feel that the benefits of having more sp and even more with items, and the fact that I am not using DC-based spells a lot, and even if I did, they land fairly well with an enervate, I feel that for a nuking/dps point of view, a sorc build maybe viable. I currently need advice on this because I'm torn for my 2nd TR on doing 16/2/2 wiz/fighter/monk THF WF wiz or 16/2/2 sorc/palladin/monk for nuking and undying resists/saves or would a 16/2/2 sorc/fighter/monk build be more superior than the pally build (more feats, less saves/resists)

[Gol]

I tried to make a Sorc work for this build, but I just couldn't do it personally. I don't know that I'd give up the level 8 spell slot, either.

If you do Sorc, THF and Fighter 2 / Monk 2 are pretty much a must. You'll end up burning 4 free feats on metamagics:
1: Extend
3: Maximize
6: Enlarge
9: Quicken
Figure on Toughness x 2 for your Monk Feats, Power Attack and Imp Crit for your Fighter feats, and you still have 12/15/18 to play with THF, Toughness, and/or Stunning Blow.

Personally, though, I don't bother with spell damage unless the mob has a vulnerability for fire or cold. Otherwise, straight DPS and/or vorpals (as TWF) is just a lot faster. If there's a bard in the party, I never have to turn off power attack (with all 3 WF levels of it) either, so that's a big plus too.

edit: **** you, now I want to roll up a Sorc version!

[Gol]

Hi all,

Not to hijack the thread from the OP, but I have come up with 32 pt THF WF Battlemage from DDO character planner and need some comments / advice.

*snip*

Is this a viable 32pt build at end-game?

First, those character planner things are really hard to read. I made myself read through that one but I won't do it again.

Second, yes, that build looks like a valid THF version with Rogue levels instead of Monk. As you're not investing in Rogue skills, and you don't really need UMD as a WF Wizard, I'd suggest you consider Monk as it nets you 45 more HP, and +3 Will/Fort saves over the Rogue at the expense of skill points and UMD.

As var as viability goes... With any of these type of builds, your gear and keyboard skills will determine endgame viability. Playing one of these builds is nothing like playing any other style of character. You have to learn how, and you have to heavily invest in gear. If you don't do both of those, it won't be viable. IMO, 9 times in 10, viability is all about the person at the keyboard and how much they're willing to invest in raiding and loot farming. A person willing and capable of doing those 2 will know how to fix the build themselves.

[Aspenor]

I'd like to throw in a comment that this is a great build. It's *almost* as good as mine!!!! /pokeGol

[Gol]

I'd like to throw in a comment that this is a great build. It's *almost* as good as mine!!!! /pokeGol

Ye old THF vs TWF debate. TWF battlemage needs feats - ie, wizard. THF battlmage doesn't - ie, sorc

[zealous]

Haven't tried it, but at the same time the math says it's a ridiculous proposition. Trading 1d10x3(17)Khopesh for 1d6x2(20) Handwraps? Erm...

Maths would say...
for +5 alignment greater bane
Khopesh: 14*0.75 str + 9enh + 5.5 base + 8PA + 9 bard=> 42 base damage; 5*3.5=17.5 added effects
100 % fort: 0.95*(42+17.5)=56.5
50% fort: 56.5+0.2*42=64.9
0% fort: 56.5+0.4*42=73.3
a minII would loose 4 base (3.8/4.56/5.32) as well as 3*3.5 while gaining 3.5 acid, 2.5 slicing and burst+blast (2.2+0.7), net loss of ~6

Unarmed: 14 str(sun stance) + 9 enh +5.5 base + 8PA +9 bard=>45.5; 17.5 + 2*3.5 ToD ring1 + 3.5 ToD ring2=28
100 % fort: 0.95*(45.5+28)*1.05=73.3
50% fort:73.3+0.05*45.5*1.05=75.7
0% fort:73.3+0.1*45.5*1.05=78

...that with a pair of ToD rings and good wraps you'd likely do more damage even if you discount popping a elemental strike or two and count low on the speed advantage of unarmed.

If we consider the situations where you wouldn't be using alignment of greater bane, unarmed would loose 7. Then again, not only do those situation tend to be with at least 50% fort, they tend to include acid resistance and thus cost about the same for a minII.

[edit:] Alignment of greater banes as well as metalline of greater banes aren't that common though

[Gol]

Maths would say...

Confucious says you don't know how to do DPS math. Please move along now and don't post more handwraps junk on the thread.

[zealous]

Confucious says you don't know how to do DPS math. Please move along now and don't post more handwraps junk on the thread.

There is one error in that 1d6 doesn't have a average of 5.5 so the numbers for the wraps should be lower. Other than that they should be quite accurate.

I think a more appropriate quote would be:
The people may be made to follow a path of action, but they may not be made to understand it.
or
Ignorance is the night of the mind, but a night without moon and star.

[metalworker]

Why would you ever bring in ToD rings for your Handwrap calculations and not include an equivalent in the khopesh? Clearly your 'calculations' are just adding what you want to put your damage for handwraps higher...

I think the sorc build is only viable with wiz past lives so you have an innate spell penn and greater spell penn feat given by the wiz past life which makes the feat-starve build a little viable. I'm going to head on with this TR and hopefully see how well he does.

[vettkinn]

Comrade Gol, how much AC does this build have?

[ratpacker]

First, those character planner things are really hard to read. I made myself read through that one but I won't do it again.

Second, yes, that build looks like a valid THF version with Rogue levels instead of Monk. As you're not investing in Rogue skills, and you don't really need UMD as a WF Wizard, I'd suggest you consider Monk as it nets you 45 more HP, and +3 Will/Fort saves over the Rogue at the expense of skill points and UMD.

As var as viability goes... With any of these type of builds, your gear and keyboard skills will determine endgame viability. Playing one of these builds is nothing like playing any other style of character. You have to learn how, and you have to heavily invest in gear. If you don't do both of those, it won't be viable. IMO, 9 times in 10, viability is all about the person at the keyboard and how much they're willing to invest in raiding and loot farming. A person willing and capable of doing those 2 will know how to fix the build themselves.

Hi Gol,

Thank you for going through the Character plan - I know it is a PITA :P
One reason for going rogue is because I am premium and I do not have Monk available. Having a good UMD just makes this build easier to use other equipment (alignment based), especially before TR or even shroud runs.

After reading metalworker post, I am actually going to explore having a Sorc 16/ Paly 2 / Rogue 2 or a Sorc 16/Fighter 2/ Rogue 2. The rogue 2 will be able to make use of the increased Cha for UMD. I have similar questions as Metalworker and that is whether Paly or Fighter will make the build better.

My feeling (no confirmations yet) - Paly has better saves, Fighter has 1 more feat. So it is a toss up between the two.

[Musashiclaw]

this guy neutral good?
I probably will try this build you and Nick have here since he will start out at 32pts.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=116254

[ratpacker]

Hi all,

I took some time to run Sorc/Paly/Rogue and Sorc/Fighter/Rogue through the Character Planner (both on 16/2/2). In my opinion, the lack of feats on these multi-classes make them much weaker than the Wiz/Fighter/Rogue.

On Wiz builds, I can have feats like stunning blow and 2x toughness; mental toughness + a good suit of metamagics (empower, Maximise, extend, heighten (or quickening)

On Sorc builds, I can only have 1x toughness and no mental toughness (abeit with same suit of metamagics)

Sorc build has about 300 sp more than Wiz build at level 20, but 22 HP lower. Saves are similar except for Paly, which has slightly higher saves. Also Sorc has much fewer AP (after put into concentration and balance, not enough for intimidation).

In conclusion, I think I will enjoy the Wiz/Fighter/Rogue build better - swinging my greataxe in an extended empowered, maximised Wall of Fire and intimidating all to come fight me.

Have fun!

[Musashiclaw]

What enhancements would you try to put on this guy?

[Gol]

On business travel at the moment, I'll reply to all these when I get home.

[Gol]

Clearly your 'calculations' are just adding what you want to put your damage for handwraps higher...

QFT.

Comrade Gol, how much AC does this build have?

Displacement and Stoneskin for the win. AC is probably around 20 if I had to guess.

After reading metalworker post, I am actually going to explore having a Sorc 16/ Paly 2 / Rogue 2 or a Sorc 16/Fighter 2/ Rogue 2. The rogue 2 will be able to make use of the increased Cha for UMD. I have similar questions as Metalworker and that is whether Paly or Fighter will make the build better.

This build really doesn't stand to gain much with UMD. You can self heal and you have a full arsenal of arcane buffs. All you get from UMD is using RR gear, which hardly justifies splashing. As I recall you said you didn't have access to Monks, but I'd suggest you catch it on sale and use it in this build. Monk 2 is +3 Fort/Will and +2 feats over Rogue. Also, Fighter 2 is 2 feats over the Pally. You should be able to pull off a THF Sorc version with Fighter 2 / Monk 2.

this guy neutral good?
I probably will try this build you and Nick have here since he will start out at 32pts.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=116254

Neutral good is the worst alignment in the game. If you have access to Monk, you have to be lawful and Lawful Neutral is your best option. Since I don't have UMD, I typically endure the pain of Lawful Good so I can use pure good weapons.

I took some time to run Sorc/Paly/Rogue and Sorc/Fighter/Rogue through the Character Planner (both on 16/2/2). In my opinion, the lack of feats on these multi-classes make them much weaker than the Wiz/Fighter/Rogue. On Wiz builds, I can have feats like stunning blow and 2x toughness; mental toughness + a good suit of metamagics (empower, Maximise, extend, heighten (or quickening). On Sorc builds, I can only have 1x toughness and no mental toughness (abeit with same suit of metamagics). Sorc build has about 300 sp more than Wiz build at level 20, but 22 HP lower. Saves are similar except for Paly, which has slightly higher saves. Also Sorc has much fewer AP (after put into concentration and balance, not enough for intimidation). In conclusion, I think I will enjoy the Wiz/Fighter/Rogue build better - swinging my greataxe in an extended empowered, maximised Wall of Fire and intimidating all to come fight me.

Heighten is useless on this build. Mental Toughness is the equivalent of 2 reconstruct scrolls per shrine - again, useless. If you're going THF anyway, you don't need the extra feats and Sorc/Fighter/Monk is the best option IMO.

What enhancements would you try to put on this guy?

I max fire/ice and repair damage, racial toughness, and put a few points in MM efficiencies. I usually have APs to burn any time I respec.

[zealous]

Why would you ever bring in ToD rings for your Handwrap calculations and not include an equivalent in the khopesh? Clearly your 'calculations' are just adding what you want to put your damage for handwraps higher...

QFT.

It's not about making a fair comparison, it's for determining what's optimal for the build.

Damage from ToD rings are added only for the monk since there is no equivalent for the khopesh.

That is correct. The first ring will add "Holy Burst" to all of your unarmed attacks, and the other ring would add "Shocking Burst". The rings do not stack with exactly identical effects. (No Holy Burst Ring + Holy Burst Handwraps, but Holy Burst Ring + Holy or Pure Good Handwraps will work.)
...
The rings are not greensteel weapons. They're different. In some ways better, in other ways worse. (Note: There are also a couple of incorrect assumptions that have been made regarding some of the available enchantments on them, but those will clear as there is more experimentation with them. Their enchant list is similar to, but does not exactly match, the greensteel weapon enchantment set.)

[Gol]

It's not about making a fair comparison, it's for determining what's optimal for the build.

Damage from ToD rings are added only for the monk since there is no equivalent for the khopesh.

Again, I respectfully request you stop posting about handwrap DPS on this thread.

[transtemporal]

Confucious says you don't know how to do DPS math. Please move along now and don't post more handwraps junk on the thread.

Lol

[Musashiclaw]

I have gotten my guy up to level 8ish so far. Should be level 12 or so by end of weekend.

Questions:
What equipment do you wear in the mean time?
Docent?
Do you use a shield?
Do you play mostly as a caster because i feel a bit squishy right now yet the self healing is nice.