Heavy Picks(Green Steel)

[KolbyLMD]

What are ya'll thoughts on Green Steel Heavy Picks versus the other weapons like Khopesh or Rapiers for a TWF?
Does the damage per hit compare to them? or is the burst from critical's where they shine?

[Quikster]

Crits is where the heavy picks shine. Khops are ahead. Dont use rapiers for dps on a str build. High crit #'s are fun

That about sums it up

[WolfSpirit]

My Warrior Wolfsoul uses Greensteel heavy Picks.
Crits well over 200.
I'd suggest Kensii III for improved Crit Range.
Devastating...
Without the need for extra Feat.
Ever so Slightly behind the Khopesh in overall dps but the Massive Crits are fun for sure!

[elraido]

My Warrior Wolfsoul uses Greensteel heavy Picks.
Crits well over 200.
I'd suggest Kensii III for improved Crit Range.
Devastating...
Without the need for extra Feat.
Ever so Slightly behind the Khopesh in overall dps but the Massive Crits are fun for sure!

Kensii III on a paladin?

[jarlaxle_dourden]

Kensii III on a paladin?

That's what I was about to say ...

On a fighter DPS build I would say that Kop/Heavy Pick is a toss up ... but on a pally where the Kensei is NA ... It's a no brainer ... Kopesh all the way.

[elraido]

If you want to improve your crit range on a pally....spam divine sac and exhaulted smite.

[Bunker]

Are you high enough lvl to use the Holy Sword Spell? If so, test out how Heavy Picks feel by making 1 (or 2 if you dual weild) and use those on high end bosses and in quests. If you like the dmg those picks do, then I would say for for it.

With the holy sword spell, you can make identical stats on most any weapon, and should be able to get a comparison before making any Greesteel.

[WolfSpirit]

Kensii III on a paladin?

Paladin huh?
Missed that one!
That will teach me for sorting my threads by newest instead of catagory!
lol

[elraido]

Paladin huh?
Missed that one!
That will teach me for sorting my threads by newest instead of catagory!
lol

Hoping maybe I was wrong and it was a new enhancement for paladins at level 3.

[KolbyLMD]

Hmm. Guess I can wait a couple levels for Holy Spell to test it, didn't think about that.
Thanks for the responses everyone.

[excess]

That's what I was about to say ...

On a fighter DPS build I would say that Kop/Heavy Pick is a toss up ... but on a pally where the Kensei is NA ... It's a no brainer ... Kopesh all the way.

Weapons with exceptional crit ranges/crit multipliers actually end up a wash once you crunch the numbers: e.g. rapiers/scimis vs. picks - 18-20/x2 vs. 20/x4 or, with IC - 15-20/x2 vs. 19-20/x4.

Take for example +30 damage:

Rapier: (3.5 + 30)*0.7 + (3.5 + 30)*2*0.3 = 0.7b + 0.6b = 1.3b (or 1.3b + 2.7 with rapier damage enhancements)
Pick: (3.5 + 30)*0.9 + (3.5 + 30)*4*0.1 = 0.9b + 0.4b = 1.3b
Khopesh: (4.5 + 30)*0.8 + (4.5 + 30)*3*0.2 = 0.8(b + 1) + 0.6(b +1) = 1.4b + 1.4

With +1 to crit multiplier:

Rapier: 0.7b + 0.9b = 1.6b (1.6b + 3.2 with rapier enhancements)
Pick: 0.9b + 0.5b = 1.4b
Khopesh: 0.8(b + 1) + 0.8(b + 1) = 1.6b + 1.6

So going with picks, while awesome for the big numbers, is actually resulting in less DPS.

[KolbyLMD]

Weapons with exceptional crit ranges/crit multipliers actually end up a wash once you crunch the numbers: e.g. rapiers/scimis vs. picks - 18-20/x2 vs. 20/x4 or, with IC - 15-20/x2 vs. 19-20/x4.

Take for example +30 damage:

Rapier: (3.5 + 30)*0.7 + (3.5 + 30)*2*0.3 = 0.7b + 0.6b = 1.3b (or 1.3b + 2.7 with rapier damage enhancements)
Pick: (3.5 + 30)*0.9 + (3.5 + 30)*4*0.1 = 0.9b + 0.4b = 1.3b
Khopesh: (4.5 + 30)*0.8 + (4.5 + 30)*3*0.2 = 0.8(b + 1) + 0.6(b +1) = 1.4b + 1.4

With +1 to crit multiplier:

Rapier: 0.7b + 0.9b = 1.6b (1.6b + 3.2 with rapier enhancements)
Pick: 0.9b + 0.5b = 1.4b
Khopesh: 0.8(b + 1) + 0.8(b + 1) = 1.6b + 1.6

So going with picks, while awesome for the big numbers, is actually resulting in less DPS.

Aha, Thank you for all the math as I'm sure that took some time to type out. >< But sadly I'm a math moron and that's another language to me. How small(or large) is the DMG difference in layman's terms?

[excess]

Pretty small overall:

Keep in mind there are better numbers out there and I just threw this together to illustrate that picks vs. rapiers/scimis didn't go the way people often intuitively thought they went with IC factored in.

Generally, for classes without a PrE increasing crit damage multipliers you're looking at a difference of something like 10% of your +damage + 1.4 (difference in mean damage between a rapier and a khopesh taking crit percentages into account - assuming keen weapons or appropriate IC feat). Subtract 2.7 if you happen to be drow/elf/dwarf with both +damage weapon type enhancements.

That's per hit mind you, so over a minute's worth at 130+ attacks per minute, it ads up. But nothing like how important some make it sound.

For Kensai with that increase crit multiplier damage I've actually got rapiers with both enhancements coming out ahead by a small amount, but I might have missed something (I wasn't using GS base weapon damage for one thing - Khopesh at 1d10 might make a difference, but I don't have the rapier/scimi numbers).

For classes that fall in between it very much depends. Basically abilities that increase the crit multiplier by a flat amount favor large crit ranges over higher crit multipliers (i.e. rapiers/scimis/falchions/kukris over khopeshes/great axe). So figure out how much of your damage comes from those sources and way pros and cons.