Valhelm, Defender of Siberys

[Justicesar]

I did. My reasons for thinking about human are I have 2 pairs of kopeshes crafted on my human ranger who I plan to tr. If I go human I can still pick up stunning blow. Ill lose 2 ac but thats not too big of an issue with your gear set up. Ill gain access to DM3 by going with a 15 str and a 14 cha. I can make up the str by human adapt str. I can squeeze recovery 1-2 in the build and could possibly work a self healing set up in. Ill run the numbers but the hp will be close to what the dwarf version is pulling. If I had a build with d axes already crafted Id go dwarf in a heart beat but I think a human version would be sweet too. Cheers

Rage

Don't know if you have a fighter laying around to TR to pally....but the past life feat works really well for a human pally. That feat being +2 Intim with +1 to max dex allowed with armour and shield. This can make up the difference that a human pally has in AC to a dwarf with the armour master line a bit. My pallie is S&B with the 3 levik combo and single greensteal weapons. If the right tomes present thrmselves might swiith to TWF build such as Val...or if the right loot drops i might go with the Jarelach build. Both these builds have been top notch in helping me plan btw....super job...super.

[lord_of_rage]

Don't know if you have a fighter laying around to TR to pally....but the past life feat works really well for a human pally. That feat being +2 Intim with +1 to max dex allowed with armour and shield. This can make up the difference that a human pally has in AC to a dwarf with the armour master line a bit. My pallie is S&B with the 3 levik combo and single greensteal weapons. If the right tomes present thrmselves might swiith to TWF build such as Val...or if the right loot drops i might go with the Jarelach build. Both these builds have been top notch in helping me plan btw....super job...super.

The fighter I have is just getting rerolled lol. It would be awsome and the additional ac would be nice. I could beef the intim up a bit with human aps but in all honesty he should be able to tank bosses enough with hate generation. Trash wont be an issue with intim. The ranger Im going to tr will most likly be my best option and will be my project on leave. Getting the 1.5 lvls to 20 and tr'ing and seeing how far I can get him up in 2 weeks before I head back to the sandbox.

[Junts]

The fighter I have is just getting rerolled lol. It would be awsome and the additional ac would be nice. I could beef the intim up a bit with human aps but in all honesty he should be able to tank bosses enough with hate generation. Trash wont be an issue with intim. The ranger Im going to tr will most likly be my best option and will be my project on leave. Getting the 1.5 lvls to 20 and tr'ing and seeing how far I can get him up in 2 weeks before I head back to the sandbox.

I think you'll find there -are- some advantages to dwarf (dwarven armor mastery lets you use the extra dex thats qualifying for twf for extra ac) and also some disadvantages (bad cha, AP are way, way tighter).

[lord_of_rage]

I think you'll find there -are- some advantages to dwarf (dwarven armor mastery lets you use the extra dex thats qualifying for twf for extra ac) and also some disadvantages (bad cha, AP are way, way tighter).

There are pro's and cons. My first several builds were and are dwarves. The armor mastery feats are great because Id net 2 more ac. Ive crunched the build a few times both ways. Ill post what Im looking at up for a critique. But Human nets me imp recovery 1-2 with ease. I could shift ap around for extra intim if i needed to. I get kopesh and access to DM3 easier,which allows a bit more DPS, and if I dont want to I dont have to scrap any feats. I still might drop OTWF for imp crit slash at least till I get my min2s. Which leads to the next point. With a pair of min2 peshes with the ideal set up one holy,aburst,+4 insight, and one holy. aburst, ablast, and a pair of lt2s set the same way it just appeals to me more to go human. And im sure with the torc and conc opp I could work a self heal set up. Id possibly drop otwf for emp heal. The last part is I have alot of the gear Id want already on my ranger. I think I might actaully have the defender because I couldnt find a taker in the run. As well as the FPOD for the same reason and a boat load of tempest and sov runes for dt armor. I'm guessing Ill have a blast either way. And a huge nod to both you and val for the insperation.

P.S Val you dont mind if I use your gear breakdowns in when I post the human version for your and junts critique do you? Also just noticed you are shorting yourself 1 ac from the ac ritual for your armor.

Cheers
Rage

[Junts]

There are pro's and cons. My first several builds were and are dwarves. The armor mastery feats are great because Id net 2 more ac. Ive crunched the build a few times both ways. Ill post what Im looking at up for a critique. But Human nets me imp recovery 1-2 with ease. I could shift ap around for extra intim if i needed to. I get kopesh and access to DM3 easier,which allows a bit more DPS, and if I dont want to I dont have to scrap any feats. I still might drop OTWF for imp crit slash at least till I get my min2s. Which leads to the next point. With a pair of min2 peshes with the ideal set up one holy,aburst,+4 insight, and one holy. aburst, ablast, and a pair of lt2s set the same way it just appeals to me more to go human. And im sure with the torc and conc opp I could work a self heal set up. Id possibly drop otwf for emp heal. The last part is I have alot of the gear Id want already on my ranger. I think I might actaully have the defender because I couldnt find a taker in the run. As well as the FPOD for the same reason and a boat load of tempest and sov runes for dt armor. I'm guessing Ill have a blast either way. And a huge nod to both you and val for the insperation.

P.S Val you dont mind if I use your gear breakdowns in when I post the human version for your and junts critique do you? Also just noticed you are shorting yourself 1 ac from the ac ritual for your armor.

Cheers
Rage

I clearly prefer human; you might want to look at my Jaerlach build and adjust the statistics/feats to figure out how to do it with a human, vs doing it with the dwarf, if that's what you want to do.

[lord_of_rage]

I clearly prefer human; you might want to look at my Jaerlach build and adjust the statistics/feats to figure out how to do it with a human, vs doing it with the dwarf, if that's what you want to do.

Ive studied both builds and will continue to do so. Alas 3 months till leave):. But plently of time to ponder and accumulate tp. Ill most likely drop otwf and extend in favor of emp heal and possibly quicken once I snag the torc. Also how often does the heal on the l defender proc?

[Junts]

Ive studied both builds and will continue to do so. Alas 3 months till leave):. But plently of time to ponder and accumulate tp. Ill most likely drop otwf and extend in favor of emp heal and possibly quicken once I snag the torc. Also how often does the heal on the l defender proc?

its a 2% proc

if you are only gonna carry one feat for healing, take maximize; the torc sort of frees you from the burden of caring about how sp efficient your cast is, and maximize is slightly more mana-efficient anyway. Its much better to pop a 140 point heal and have more time to swing than to throw 2 70 pointers for the same total sp; the time you spend casting is time you aren't killing.

[lord_of_rage]

its a 2% proc

if you are only gonna carry one feat for healing, take maximize; the torc sort of frees you from the burden of caring about how sp efficient your cast is, and maximize is slightly more mana-efficient anyway. Its much better to pop a 140 point heal and have more time to swing than to throw 2 70 pointers for the same total sp; the time you spend casting is time you aren't killing.

Great point I know I said Id work a build up to get your feedback on but I had to pull a few more hrs last night. Ill try and get it worked up tonight.

[Valezra]

I think you'll find there -are- some advantages to dwarf (dwarven armor mastery lets you use the extra dex thats qualifying for twf for extra ac) and also some disadvantages (bad cha, AP are way, way tighter).

Humans are amazing for paladins. I will NOT get into an argument about which one is better but I would like to point out some other benefits to dwarf that Junts missed above.

1. Dwarves also have +2 higher will saves versus spells.
2. Dwarven Axes do about the same damage as a khopesh on 50% fort mobs and more damage against 100% fort mobs.
3. When Stunning Blow lands (fairly often actually) DAxe crits hit harder than Khopesh ones... and alternatively when SB lands if you follow it with a Smite the Daxe will do more damage than the Khopesh as well.
4. Dwarves can increase their combat feat checks via Action Points, thus making SB more effective.
5. Dwarves receive increased Armor Dex (already discussed) via Action Points.
6. Free +4 AC versus Giants.
7. +4 to Balance checks which is useful for us since we are always in melee.

The major con against Dwarves is what Junts already pointed out... our AP is spread extremely thin. You cannot have everything you would want and you must make choices.

As far as self healing goes, I have found that most of the time my 5 big Lay on Hands are sufficient between shrines (I soloed Weapons Shipment on just my LoH's while TWF and can also easily do Titan pillars Elite through the occasional Warforged Titan blasts and hits). Human self healing is leaps and bounds above Dwarves however, and appears to add a more viable long term self healing solution.

Val

[lord_of_rage]

Humans are amazing for paladins. I will NOT get into an argument about which one is better but I would like to point out some other benefits to dwarf that Junts missed above.

1. Dwarves also have +2 higher will saves versus spells.
2. Dwarven Axes do about the same damage as a khopesh on 50% fort mobs and more damage against 100% fort mobs.
3. When Stunning Blow lands (fairly often actually) DAxe crits hit harder than Khopesh ones... and alternatively when SB lands if you follow it with a Smite the Daxe will do more damage than the Khopesh as well.
4. Dwarves can increase their combat feat checks via Action Points, thus making SB more effective.
5. Dwarves receive increased Armor Dex (already discussed) via Action Points.
6. Free +4 AC versus Giants.
7. +4 to Balance checks which is useful for us since we are always in melee.

The major con against Dwarves is what Junts already pointed out... our AP is spread extremely thin. You cannot have everything you would want and you must make choices.

As far as self healing goes, I have found that most of the time my 5 big Lay on Hands are sufficient between shrines (I soloed Weapons Shipment on just my LoH's while TWF and can also easily do Titan pillars Elite through the occasional Warforged Titan blasts and hits). Human self healing is leaps and bounds above Dwarves however, and appears to add a more viable long term self healing solution.

Val

All phenominal points. My main is an 18barb 2/ftr dwarf pick user. They both offer great advantages and disadvantages. If I had a Daxe user capped and geared out there is no question Id go dwarf. But this way going human gives me a chance to take your build and toss a self heal set up on it and see how it works. Worse comes to worse I run him to 20 and TR again.

[Valezra]

All phenominal points. My main is an 18barb 2/ftr dwarf pick user. They both offer great advantages and disadvantages. If I had a Daxe user capped and geared out there is no question Id go dwarf. But this way going human gives me a chance to take your build and toss a self heal set up on it and see how it works. Worse comes to worse I run him to 20 and TR again.

I was thinking about this on my TR Dwarf Paladin. A Cure Serious Wounds spell has a base 3d8 +15 or 28.5 Avg HP per cast. As a dwarf I can fit in let's say Devotion II only for +20% healing. That brings us up to ~34 HP. With a Superior Devotion/Potency item that brings the spell up to 51.3 HP avg per cast. If I choose to put 20% healing amp on my ring (or better yet put it on my 2nd ring when I eventually get it) then that should bring Cure Serious up to around ~62 HP and with my Paladin TR I healing amp I am at ~64 HP per cast. That's not a huge number but I can cast that about 24 times if I cast nothing else. If I spend half my SP on Zeal, Divine Favor, and some resists I can get 12 Cure Serious spells per shrine for about 768 HP per shrine of self healing. If I wanted to go the Torq route and Conc-Opp (which I will eventually) then that number only goes up from there considerably.

My LoH's will heal me for 315 HP times 5 LoH's is another 1575 HP per shrine.

That's a total of 2343 HP that I can recover per shrine -or- 4.25 entire health bars per rest... this is excluding Cure Serious Wands between CS Spell cooldowns, pots, etc... and again, this excludes SP regen from Torq and Conc-Opp.

So, yeah the human version can self heal better than the Dwarf version but I don't want to imply the Dwarf Version *can't* self heal at all. In fact it is quite decent.

PS - In doing this math I realized how much more mileage I get out of LoH's than I previously thought. 1575 HP is about the equivalent of spending my entire SP bar on healing only.

[lord_of_rage]

I was thinking about this on my TR Dwarf Paladin. A Cure Serious Wounds spell has a base 3d8 +15 or 28.5 Avg HP per cast. As a dwarf I can fit in let's say Devotion II only for +20% healing. That brings us up to ~34 HP. With a Superior Devotion/Potency item that brings the spell up to 51.3 HP avg per cast. If I choose to put 20% healing amp on my ring (or better yet put it on my 2nd ring when I eventually get it) then that should bring Cure Serious up to around ~62 HP and with my Paladin TR I healing amp I am at ~64 HP per cast. That's not a huge number but I can cast that about 24 times if I cast nothing else. If I spend half my SP on Zeal, Divine Favor, and some resists I can get 12 Cure Serious spells per shrine for about 768 HP per shrine of self healing. If I wanted to go the Torq route and Conc-Opp (which I will eventually) then that number only goes up from there considerably.

My LoH's will heal me for 315 HP times 5 LoH's is another 1575 HP per shrine.

That's a total of 2343 HP that I can recover per shrine -or- 4.25 entire health bars per rest... this is excluding Cure Serious Wands between CS Spell cooldowns, pots, etc... and again, this excludes SP regen from Torq and Conc-Opp.

So, yeah the human version can self heal better than the Dwarf version but I don't want to imply the Dwarf Version *can't* self heal at all. In fact it is quite decent.

PS - In doing this math I realized how much more mileage I get out of LoH's than I previously thought. 1575 HP is about the equivalent of spending my entire SP bar on healing only.

There is no arguing that this build isnt a killer build. It is. Originally I was going to roll it note for note. But then I thought about it and realize that the build I want to TR is a mod 6 human ranger with **** for ac. But He does have alot of the gear Id want and the kopeshes. And I can give a solid showing of what the human version is capable of. When I get him up Ill have to pay a visit to your server look you up and go cause some trouble. Either way I think the build is going to work out great. I'm sure as I lvl Ill tweak it a bit. Ill have the 20% human, 20% on dt untill I get the vambraces,20% dev2 and a sup dev item. I should be pretty solid. Thanks for such a killer build and the on going feedback on it.

Rage

[maddmatt70]

I have started on the path of making something somewhat similiar but different. I currently have a 16 barbarian 2 rogue that I am power leveling and will tr into a pure barbarian which I in turn plan to power level and change into a paladin. My thinking was make a dwarven pure level 20 twf paladin knights of the chalice with the hopes that someday the fighter defender will become available for dwarves. At that point it would be a knights of the chalice/fighter defender. The biggest issue in that build is action points which you discuss in the posts later in this thread. I have some comments/questions on your build:

Tactics? you briefly discuss getting dwarven tactics in one of the posts, but for a paladin I would think that is not worthwhile except if you tr as a fighter a couple of times because the dc for stunning blow on epic content are fairly high such that stunning blow is more the realm of fighters and barbarians on epic.

My second suggestion is to pick up improved critical for the non mineral 2 mobs. There are many mobs where mineral 2 is not the answer. It behoves a player who has a decent number of feats to pick up improved critical so you can do more dps.

I have a feeling you can do better with the necklace slot. Obviously the negative energy absorbtion item is nice to swap in there when needed, but perhaps you should think about having that be a shroud item swap area if you have the ingredients handy. That would free up the goggles or cloak slot - I would free up the goggle slot for the mentau goggles what with paladin smites and the like. I would probably wear the mentau goggles with the option to swap them out so you can wear the negative energy absorbtion necklace when needed.

Have you ever thought about picking up the shield mastery feats so you can have more dr when you tank? That is one of the glaring weakness of this build is its a hit point/ac tank with less dps then the monk splash ac characters but without the dr of the other S&B tanks?
Drop dodge, the tactical feat, and perhaps extend or toughness (to fit improved critical in).

[maddmatt70]

I did. My reasons for thinking about human are I have 2 pairs of kopeshes crafted on my human ranger who I plan to tr. If I go human I can still pick up stunning blow. Ill lose 2 ac but thats not too big of an issue with your gear set up. Ill gain access to DM3 by going with a 15 str and a 14 cha. I can make up the str by human adapt str. I can squeeze recovery 1-2 in the build and could possibly work a self healing set up in. Ill run the numbers but the hp will be close to what the dwarf version is pulling. If I had a build with d axes already crafted Id go dwarf in a heart beat but I think a human version would be sweet too. Cheers

Rage

Any thoughts on tr into a dwarf and using the khopeshes without the khopesh profiency? I do not know what the to-hit would be in that scenario with or without power attack, etc.. The dwarf could swap between khopeshes and dwarven war axes depending on the mob type. For instance I have been thinking if somebody were to make a pure paladin and wanted to use the epic chaosblades, but feats were tight that may be one option.

[Junts]

I dont think it'd be wise to go without the feat on a paladin; most of their bonuses are damage only, so to-hit bonuses are rather at a premium.

There really aren't that many advantages to going dwarf with a paladin unless you intend to make use of dwarven armor mastery on top of the defender of siberys bonuses.. otherwise, other races are pretty much uniformly better, because of how reliant the class is on charisma and how tight the action points are; dwarves use lots of AP and the con bonus is unnecessary.

If you're not going human, go drow, especially for a pure 20; if you're not a 34 or 36 pt human, drow is a lot better for going for a pure 20 build.

[maddmatt70]

I dont think it'd be wise to go without the feat on a paladin; most of their bonuses are damage only, so to-hit bonuses are rather at a premium.

I agree with this, but for the fact that Turbine has been adding additional means for upgrading a player's to-hit. The epic spectral gloves are one example. It might be possible to get a to-hit up fairly high for the usage of weapons like the chaosblades for trash mobs.

There really aren't that many advantages to going dwarf with a paladin unless you intend to make use of dwarven armor mastery on top of the defender of siberys bonuses.. otherwise, other races are pretty much uniformly better, because of how reliant the class is on charisma and how tight the action points are; dwarves use lots of AP and the con bonus is unnecessary.

If you're not going human, go drow, especially for a pure 20; if you're not a 34 or 36 pt human, drow is a lot better for going for a pure 20 build.

No real disagreement with any of these statements I was more contemplating the future with Eladrin's recent update of the prestige enhancement thread to reflect that the defender pre was still on slate for dwarves. The build I was thinking of making and the OP's build could make usage of the defender pre for dwarves when it come out. The OP could switch to the fighter defender pre and use knights of the chalice as his paladin pre for instance. Drow also could be interesting depending on the drow pre when it comes available. Edit: or warforge with juggernaut.

[Junts]

I agree with this, but for the fact that Turbine has been adding additional means for upgrading a player's to-hit. The epic spectral gloves are one example. It might be possible to get a to-hit up fairly high for the usage of weapons like the chaosblades for trash mobs.



No real disagreement with any of these statements I was more contemplating the future with Eladrin's recent update of the prestige enhancement thread to reflect that the defender pre was still on slate for dwarves. The build I was thinking of making and the OP's build could make usage of the defender pre for dwarves when it come out. The OP could switch to the fighter defender pre and use knights of the chalice as his paladin pre for instance. Drow also could be interesting depending on the drow pre when it comes available. Edit: or warforge with juggernaut.

While I think that a dwarven-defender paladin will be interesting, I think you would find that the action point requirements of taking two PREs on a paladin are pretty close to impossible; you could do it, but to do so you'd have to give up other enhancements that are simply superior. There's no way, for example, that such a build could also afford to max bulwark of good. If paladins had 120 action points, it'd be a great idea. However, there's just 80. They;'d have to make dwarven defender incredibly cheap to access (way less so than any other recently released pre) for this to really be a viable strategy. Right now, there's about 15-20 spare AP after you take your requirements and major dps enhancements on a paladin.

[lord_of_rage]

Any thoughts on tr into a dwarf and using the khopeshes without the khopesh profiency? I do not know what the to-hit would be in that scenario with or without power attack, etc.. The dwarf could swap between khopeshes and dwarven war axes depending on the mob type. For instance I have been thinking if somebody were to make a pure paladin and wanted to use the epic chaosblades, but feats were tight that may be one option.

I have thought about it quite a bit. But Id have to drop 2 feats, beacuse Id want imp crit. So otwf goes but Im going to drop that on my human as well, And either dodge or extend. It would be awesome to shift from Daxe to kopesh and back when needed. I think this build is something Im really going to play with. If the ranger past life feat does give the full +5 bark at some point Id most likely slide it in just to get the extra self buffed ac without begging for a bark or blowing pots solo. But with kopesh and exalted smite 3 and dm3 there is a potential for solid dps with a killer ac. I cant wait to roll it up and see what it can do.

Rage

[lord_of_rage]

Do effects like lightning strike proc off grazing hits like the torc and conc opp do? If so I might be tempted to at least craft a strike item.

[Junts]

Do effects like lightning strike proc off grazing hits like the torc and conc opp do? If so I might be tempted to at least craft a strike item.

To be honest im not sure, but crafting dual lit2s is a great benefit, much moreso than making min2s (which I advise against for any paladin twf, since holy swords are seriously like .3 damage per swing worse). Lightnings, on the other hand, are ~15-20 damage per swing better than holy swords or min2s on trash mobs.