True Reincarnated tank; Projections & Thoughts

[sephiroth1084]

So, looking at the new list of True Reincarnation passive abilities and selectable feats, I've been thinking about what to do with my capped intimitank. On the one hand, True Reincarnating a dozen or so times seems appealing, what with all the beneficial passive abilities that can be stacked up to 3 times (+3 attack, trip, damage, turn attempts, +30 HP, and +15% Healing Amp being the most attractive from fighter, monk, cleric, barbarian and paladin respectively), the thought of having to cap a character 15 or so times (more if considering the increased XP needed to level) isn't especially appealing.

I do, however, think that True Reincarnating twice will be of much value, and won't necessarily be so arduous.

Someone crazy should really make a tank after TRing through 3 barbarians, 3 fighters, 3 monks and 3 paladins (and maybe 3 clerics).

Here are my current projections for what I'll want to end up doing with my current tank, and upon which I'd appreciate comments and criticisms.

Currently, Ferrumrym is a Pal 14/Fitr 6, so his past life granted ability will be +5% Healing Amp. I'm thinking of TRing him into a fighter (or mostly fighter) before TRing yet again back into a mostly paladin-based intimiitank (18/2 or 14/6 again). My reasoning behind this, is that the trainable past life feat from fighter looks pretty **** good on such a character: +1 Max Dex in armor and shields, +2 Intimidate and 3x/rest +4 attack.

Considering staying dwarf, as that will give access to Armor Mastery, and possibly more damage with axes.
Str 16
Dex 14 (ends up at 22 w/ a +2 tome, which will fill out DT FP with DAM II, DoS III and the Past Life feat)
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 14 (+4 tome to get DM III)

Feat-wise, I was considering either something reflecting Junts' self-healing build, or going with a greater offensive option, so either:

Power Attack
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Past Life
Improved Critical
Extend (maybe replace with Improved Trip)
Maximize
Quicken (maybe drop for something else if I find that I don't need it)
Toughness
(add 2 feats if going 14/6, maybe Improve Trip, or Weapon Focus and Spec)
or

Power Attack
Combat Expertise
Past Life
Improved Critical
Toughness
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
OTWF
(add 2 feats if going 14/6, probably Dodge plus 1 more, maybe Extend)

I'm really on the fence about some of this stuff. On the one hand, I really like Improved Trip, but it doesn't succeed all that often at endgame, and there are somewhat better feats to consider. Also, while I did manage to go a long time before picking up offensive feats on Ferrum (THF-GTHF), not having the DPS option seems like a sub-optimal choice, though I really like what little self-healing I already have built into a few characters.

S&B with dwarven axes seems like it'd be a bit weaker than with khopeshes, s that also makes not having a DPS option a bit painful.

What do you other capped tank players think? Which would be the more attractive/useful/effective route?

[Junts]

Dwarf is a really bad platform for a tanking paladin for the following reasons:

1: AP are super tight, affording axe enhancements and armor mastery enhancements costs you a lot somewhere else.
2: Axes are terrible weapons with which to smite, and you give up a ton of dps by using them for smite and divine sacrifice
3: Needing to raise dex enough to actually make use of dwarven armor mastery (remember, you can get 5-6 max dex out of armor already .. 1 base, 2 defender, 2 socket on vambraces of inner light or the like) requires a significant build point investment in dexterity, well past what you need even to get dodge. Completionist would allay this, but you aren't talking about that feat.
4: All things being equal, divine mights are harder to get.

Dwarves actually make the worst dps of all races for a paladin tank template, because of the charisma and axes being so bad for paladin dps abilities. You'd be better off with basically any other race.

[sephiroth1084]

Dwarf is a really bad platform for a tanking paladin for the following reasons:

1: AP are super tight, affording axe enhancements and armor mastery enhancements costs you a lot somewhere else.
2: Axes are terrible weapons with which to smite, and you give up a ton of dps by using them for smite and divine sacrifice
3: Needing to raise dex enough to actually make use of dwarven armor mastery (remember, you can get 5-6 max dex out of armor already .. 1 base, 2 defender, 2 socket on vambraces of inner light or the like) requires a significant build point investment in dexterity, well past what you need even to get dodge. Completionist would allay this, but you aren't talking about that feat.
4: All things being equal, divine mights are harder to get.

Dwarves actually make the worst dps of all races for a paladin tank template, because of the charisma and axes being so bad for paladin dps abilities. You'd be better off with basically any other race.

After running Ferrumrym (a dwarf) up, and then plotting out another paladin, I would have agreed with you, but looking at 36 points, and the past life stuff, I'm thinking that the extra 2 AC that comes with dwarf may be worthwhile. Then again, it may not be worth enough to warrant the penalties you mention. AP-wise, if I were to go 14/6 again, they fit well enough. And if I go 18/2 then, yeah it will hurt a bit.

Getting Dex and Cha up though isn't too hard, and is covered by the extra 2 build points: 14 Dex (2 above what most would take), and 14 Cha (same number of points others would spend), so that doesn't seem like a real penalty.

Axes are a bit better against crit-immune or resistant targets, otherwise, yeah, they're not as good as khopeshes.

Aside from dwarf, what do you think about what I have laid out? Obviously, you'd probably favor the self-healing version. Are others going to comment?

[Junts]

I like that stat layout without changes for a human or wf template .. with a drow, you get to slack on cha even a little more.

Not much I disagree with really.

I dont htink dwarf 14/6 is worth it, you lose out on superior stance and 1 aura, which is the same 2 ac that you gain from dwarf with less dex required


My ideal version of this build is actually 18 pal / 1 fighter / 1 rogue, since I spend a feat on SF: umd, and rogue is worth more UMD than that is.

if you drop the sf and want to twf, though, then 18 /2 fighter is a better option.

[Quikster]

I think wf'd are better suited then dwarves. The cost for +to Daxes is ok, but on a build where you want either ez crits, or huge multipliers I dont like axes. AP are so tight that the + of toughness enhancements are negated. At least the bonus wf'd get go on any weapon, and multiply out much better with khop or picks imo. Also wf'd immunities have nice synergy with paladin immunities imo.

The nice thing about dwarves have been negated with the DoS pre imo. You can now get a meaningful ac without a ton of gear, and elite ac with the nice items. Dwarf doesnt do it fer me like it did pre mod 9, I have been thinking of reincarnating mine, but he has to get in line

[sephiroth1084]

I like that stat layout without changes for a human or wf template .. with a drow, you get to slack on cha even a little more.

Not much I disagree with really.

I dont htink dwarf 14/6 is worth it, you lose out on superior stance and 1 aura, which is the same 2 ac that you gain from dwarf with less dex required

True, I have no idea how I managed to forget about that between the shower and my keyboard.

Hmm...guess I will probably end up recrafting my mineral II then.

[Junts]

If you want to be a dwarf, max out ac, and really do intimidate, you could consider 18 fighter instead. An 18 fighter/2 rogue build (something based on Rockcandy) would have a little better ac (in top ac situations) and more intimidate, as well as work in twf more easily.

[sephiroth1084]

If you want to be a dwarf, max out ac, and really do intimidate, you could consider 18 fighter instead. An 18 fighter/2 rogue build (something based on Rockcandy) would have a little better ac (in top ac situations) and more intimidate, as well as work in twf more easily.

For the time being, I really like paladins (obviously) though if I reroll Ferrumrym into a fighter, I may come to like a pure or mostly pure fighter. Things can change over a few months.

Part of the motivation for doing this was to use the fighter past life feat on a pally to squeeze in some more AC. Doubt I'd get enough Dex on a dwarf to warrant FAM, DAM and the past life feat.

[sephiroth1084]

Browsing through my old threads to find stuff on solid fog not working properly, came across this one and figured I'd update it.

Ferrumrym's life as a dwarven fighter was interesting. He swapped back and forth between Kensai and Stalwart Defender several times. He spent most of his life as a Kensai until it was time to tank his first VoD around level 16, when he switched, and then flip-flopped a few times between the two thereafter. I liked Kensai better for the added DPS, extra Haste boosts and much better stun and trip DCs.

Ferrum TR'ed again back into a (mostly) paladin, and is currently 13/2 paladin/fighter, this time as a human. The XP required for a double TR is brutal, and it's going to get worse over the next 5 levels. I ended up going with a hybrid of the two options I had been considering before, with both a DPS option and the strong self-healing, though it required a Lesser Reincarnate and feat swapping to get everything in there with tomes.

1. TWF
1. Human - Toughness
1. Fighter - PA
3. Past Life: Fighter (used the +4 attack clicky quite a bit for a while, but have hardly used it for a few levels--helped in end fight of Cabal when soloing on elite, though)
6. ITWF
8. Fighter - Improved Crit: Slashing (using scimitars mostly)
9. Maximize
12. GTWF
15. Quicken
-----------------
18. will be Combat Expertise (kind of miss having this when running GH on elite, but can manage)


Now that I've compared a paladin and a fighter tank, I can say that I much prefer the paladin version. The DPS is pretty close, as Divine Favor, Divine Might and Divine Sacrifice keep the paladin competitive with the fighter's Weapon Specialization, extra Str, etc... And the burst damage is much higher, meaning that the paladin can do things the fighter never could, like killing most ogre magi before they pull their disappearing act (drop to ~1/4 HP, then smite). On top of that, the saves, immunities and self-healing make the character exceptionally more survivable.

I kind of miss having solid tactics (stun and trip) on the paladin, but will manage without them.

I have noticed that I seem to have gotten rather attached to the look of a dwarf chugging along, and find the look of a male human running around kind of...off...a little silly.