TWF vs. THF. Again.

[BlackSteel]

140 madstoned with perfect twitch. Altho I tend not to use it unless theres only one enemy left alive.

if you want a fraps as proof you'll have to ask shade, I'm pc doent like that program very much

[BlackSteel]

I'm intrigued by this, and would like to hear more. I've wondered for a while if aggro might be time-weighted -- it's not "what have you done to me", but "what have you done to me lately".

This could also be explained by M_A's "few TWF'ers have every single piece of raid loot and optimal buffs" -- are you one of these people?

doubt its time weighted; I've given twf fighters a minute, and up to a two minute head start on horoth before, and still managed to take aggro and had to go to shield blocking before the last 15%.

[Hjarki]

They only altered moving attack speed to be less/equal with autoattack. As a result, twitch speeds have been slowed down slightly.

Didn't they also remove hook #2 glancing blows from GTHF?

[maddmatt70]

doubt its time weighted; I've given twf fighters a minute, and up to a two minute head start on horoth before, and still managed to take aggro and had to go to shield blocking before the last 15%.

Woah. The age old aggro = dps claim. My little halfling twf 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 rogue does not wants aggro because she wants her SA damage and hence wears the full tharnes set not that she typically pulls aggro on Horvoth on part 3, but on part 2 I was getting aggro too much because of fighter haste boost and the like so I switched from just Tharne's 2 to Tharne's 3 so I wouldn't get aggro and could get my SA damage. Last I checked warforge had a hate increase enhancement line as well. Not disparaging your dps Shadow just saying that alot of people do not want aggro and alot of people do want aggro and dps does not = aggro.

[BlackSteel]

Woah. The age old aggro = dps claim. My little halfling twf 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 rogue does not wants aggro because she wants her SA damage and hence wears the full tharnes set not that she typically pulls aggro on Horvoth on part 3, but on part 2 I was getting aggro too much because of fighter haste boost and the like so I switched from just Tharne's 2 to Tharne's 3 so I wouldn't get aggro and could get my SA damage. Last I checked warforge had a hate increase enhancement line as well. Not disparaging your dps Shadow just saying that alot of people do not want aggro and alot of people do want aggro and dps does not = aggro.

hate enhancements from wf dont work on a barb btw, rage cancels it out

[Emili]

doubt its time weighted; I've given twf fighters a minute, and up to a two minute head start on horoth before, and still managed to take aggro and had to go to shield blocking before the last 15%.

It is spiked damage gets the agro... You smack it harder then others and you've the agro, but it does have a time duration as in the mob seem to forget... any pally can tell you that as they have the highest single spike output with a smite (breaching 600+ straight damage before any procs), yet are generally maintain less high numbers outside that. The mob immediately focus' on you and keeps focus'd for 10-20 seconds then turns to a barb or fighter - who probably had a high crit but I know for a fact for less. I see this all the time... Fully buffed I've seen high spike breaking 200 on my human khopesh fighter latter shed... I've seen smites over 600 on my pally, I've seen 500+ on my barb and yes eventually shed...

I'm going to also state this... Outside of horoth or sulu, there are many times unless designated you do not want one melee to have complete control of agro all the time... especially in groups with iffy DPS as a group it is in these groups the poor agro holder is soaking up mana ... while others are basically plinky off a few hp with the bulk coming from the higher dps toon (who has not much choice but take some back) ... It is better the higher dps back off a little and the focus and movement of the mob change agro... the agro code kicks in and the mob queue thus changes as it has to now decide what it is going to do about it's new agro focus <- eats up some mob swings/spells/movement just in it's decision process.

In practice though it is very hard to judge as different players playing different builds and the action and party dynamics change constantly.

[BlackSteel]

if it was shed over time, then I seriously doubt that DPS tanking would work so well on horoth. few big crits and he should turn no? shouldnt really matter how long a head start the main tank gets then, if he only has an DPS aggro attention span of 30s? 1 min? 2?

To me it seems he just pays attention to whoever does the most. Of course hate +/- does help. if its limited span and based on spikes you would think he would turn around 2 minutes in when a palidan gets several good smites or a barbarian gets a few good crits. Not really the case.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Why does math show that TWF does more DPS than THF, but in-game experience doesn't?

It doesn't? :O

I'm playing THF fighters, barbs, and all the twf max dps builds out there, and I really feel the difference between my THF vs TWF in dps output. TWF in favor that is.

This is ofcourse ignoring more targets. And in such situations (sins for example) THF deals more. Shame that killing trash is just that, killing trash. A single bb would out kill all the dps builds out there in those groups. And that's what I do when I play "trash-quests" (not raids).

[Emili]

if it was shed over time, then I seriously doubt that DPS tanking would work so well on horoth. few big crits and he should turn no? shouldnt really matter how long a head start the main tank gets then, if he only has an DPS aggro attention span of 30s? 1 min? 2?

To me it seems he just pays attention to whoever does the most. Of course hate +/- does help. if its limited span and based on spikes you would think he would turn around 2 minutes in when a palidan gets several good smites or a barbarian gets a few good crits. Not really the case.

Makes sense, however does seem strange that can smite agro away from many... who I consider a great barb... I cannot see her possibly running so close behind them that a high spike steels? - as a kotc she really is gimpy in gear... be not unusual for even my Kensai to do so under full out dps mode, I get those instant turns and a few whacks at me and either stop my assault a tad or hide behind someelse a little and let him focus back.

[assamite]

Q: Doesn't the THF-Twitch technique give you a lot more attacks?
A: I assumed a Madstoned THF Barbarian using twitch attacking can get 133-134 swings/minute, (or a hasted one got 126-127) but I don't have any video confirmation on these numbers yet. If someone can demonstrate a faster speed, by all means post a vid. For THF to be attacking fast enough to equal TWF on *one* target, it would need a madstoned-attack rate of about 144/minute.

Im not sure if this is ever calculated but twitching not only makes you atk faster, it also allows you to glance a single target.

[Shade]

if it was shed over time, then I seriously doubt that DPS tanking would work so well on horoth. few big crits and he should turn no? shouldnt really matter how long a head start the main tank gets then, if he only has an DPS aggro attention span of 30s? 1 min? 2?

To me it seems he just pays attention to whoever does the most. Of course hate +/- does help. if its limited span and based on spikes you would think he would turn around 2 minutes in when a palidan gets several good smites or a barbarian gets a few good crits. Not really the case.

Yea agro = dps. Straight up. Players who say otherwise don't understand ddo. +Hate modifiers apply, but an absurdedly low % of players actaully use any.

It's not shed over time. At least not within 5 minuits or less.

I have shield block'd for the last 15% of horoths health and he didn't budge on my main thf barb. That was with max dmg WF monster builds and all attacking, starting after ive only had him down 5%.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Im not sure if this is ever calculated but twitching not only makes you atk faster, it also allows you to glance a single target.

You always glance on main target. With twitching however you go down to 1/2 instead of 3/4.

starting after ive only had him down 5%.

And when I dps tank with my Monster I barely hit him two attack chains before everyone jumps him, and I still keep it till the end.

[Shade]

Q: Doesn't the THF-Twitch technique give you a lot more attacks?
A: I assumed a Madstoned THF Barbarian using twitch attacking can get 133-134 swings/minute, (or a hasted one got 126-127) but I don't have any video confirmation on these numbers yet. If someone can demonstrate a faster speed, by all means post a vid. For THF to be attacking fast enough to equal TWF on *one* target, it would need a madstoned-attack rate of about 144/minute.

Well there you go. Your own math prooves THF is better on a single target. You just have the attack rates wrong.

Here are some simple facts maybe you never understood in the latest attack speed update:
Per a dev post: Attack rates were set to the same values as pre mod9 while hasted, with BAB20 = BAB16. You confirmed the twitch attack video I did at 140 attacks a min. It will look exactly the same if I recorded it again.
Madstone is now 5% faster then haste.
Twitch attack was never changed. The idea that it could be "fixed" is ludicrous as it was never broken. What was broken was auto attacks 5th attack, it was corrected.
As such, new rate = 140 +5%. Not sure why you need to demand a video to proove this simple fact, or why you use totally made up a way lower then accurate numbers to try to proove some false claims.

140 x1.05 = ~147 attacks per minuit.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Well there you go. Your own math prooves THF is better on a single target. You just have the attack rates wrong.

Here are some simple facts maybe you never understood in the latest attack speed update:
Per a dev post: Attack rates were set to the same values as pre mod9 while hasted, with BAB20 = BAB16. You confirmed the twitch attack video I did at 140 attacks a min. It will look exactly the same if I recorded it again.
Madstone is now 5% faster then haste.
Twitch attack was never changed. The idea that it could be "fixed" is ludicrous as it was never broken. What was broken was auto attacks 5th attack, it was corrected.
As such, new rate = 140 +5%. Not sure why you need to demand a video to proove this simple fact, or why you use totally made up a way lower then accurate numbers to try to proove some false claims.

140 x1.05 = ~147 attacks per minuit.

Because they reduced the animation speed of moving attacks, and +5% more attackspeed is not a plain +5%. It doesn't work that way. It's probably more in most situations.

[Shade]

Im not sure if this is ever calculated but twitching not only makes you atk faster, it also allows you to glance a single target.

All glancing blows work on your main/single target. By design.

[Gunga]

Well there you go. Your own math prooves THF is better on a single target. You just have the attack rates wrong.

This is my experience, no numbers. If what you say is true, than how can all the number guys get this so wrong?

[cforce]

This is my experience, no numbers. If what you say is true, than how can all the number guys get this so wrong?

Well, using the wrong number of attacks per minute is a start -- simply, no two sources have confirmed the same number. I've had individual reports at 133, 140, and 147 (the last two repeated in this very thread). Heck, if I get the same number from two credible source that *matches*, that'll be great . I'll take a video from one person over two sources saying the same thing, of course.

C'mon, someone out there has to have a BAB 20 character and the skills to put this discussion to rest. Anyone?

[Shade]

This is my experience, no numbers. If what you say is true, than how can all the number guys get this so wrong?

See answer 1 in OP.

They think there so smart they can handle all the factors of DDOs incredibly complex combat system in a spreadsheet. The fact is they're arrogant to think thats possible. Every equation has it's flaws and for a system so complex to assume 1 person can throw some numbers together and give an accurate depiction is a joke.

The game is complex, fluid and fast paced. What looks good on paper doesn't always translate so ingame.

Ingame experience. Trial and error. Watching what works. Thats how you learn how to deals the most damage. Not some spreadsheet.

[cforce]

You just have the attack rates wrong.

I might! If only someone could confirm!

Per a dev post: Attack rates were set to the same values as pre mod9 while hasted, with BAB20 = BAB16. You confirmed the twitch attack video I did at 140 attacks a min. It will look exactly the same if I recorded it again.

This reasoning assumes (a) dev claims are always accurate, and that (b) their claim applied to both twitch style and regular style. I'm not willing to take either of those on faith.

Not sure why you need to demand a video to proove this simple fact, or why you use totally made up a way lower then accurate numbers to try to proove some false claims.

Shade, quite simply because we've got he-said, she-said going on. Different people are quoting different numbers. If everyone agreed on the speed, I wouldn't be questioning -- but, quite simply, your claim doesn't jive with what others have said.

You've proven you were right in the past; but that doesn't make me automatically believe you now when others are saying different. You may be right, but you'll have to demonstate it to put this topic to bed.

[Gunga]

See answer 1 in OP.

I can tell you this...the pc I bought a bunch of pieces for and built myself 18 months ago has officially expletive the bed. It had the best motherboard, the best videocard, best everything for the price point of around $1500.

I never lost agro with my THF Barb once I had it.

I've since ordered an Alienware which I won't have until Nov. 30.

In the meantime, I'm playing on an old Vaio laptop that I bought in early 2006. She works, everything loads eventually, but....you know.

Lost agro the first VOD I did on this computer.

Connection and processor speed has got to have something to do with it.