Reincarnated 12monk / 7 pally / 1 rogue... looking for comments.

[Fratricide]

Planning to reincarnate from a Ranger multiclass to a Monk multiclass dualwielding Dream Edges (1d6 20/x3) and or Scimitars.
My thinking for this build is Good Saves, Improved Evasion, high AC, UMD, Self Healing, Lockpicking, fast attacking and decent damage with Knight of the Chalice I, Divine Sacrifice I, Exalted Smites I, Strike of the Enduring III, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Wind Stance and Rogue Haste Boost.

Additionally since my prior life was a ranger I will benifit from +2 resistance to all elemental damage types and be able to cast full +5 barksking 3x per rest.

I have not calculated max AC / Saves / HP on this build but I'd assume he could reach high 70's AC, 40's for saves (with GH), and 450+ HP

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page
 
Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(7 Paladin \ 12 Monk \ 1 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 324
Spell Points: 124 
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 21
Reflex: 21
Will: 19
           Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             14                    22
Dexterity            15                    18
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         12                    14
Wisdom               14                    18
Charisma             12                    16
Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
 
           Starting            Ending          
          Base Skills        Base Skills       
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)        
Balance               6                 22           
Bluff                 1                  3            
Concentration         2                 26            
Diplomacy             5                  7            
Disable Device        5                  9           
Haggle                5                  10            
Heal                  2                  4            
Hide                  2                  4            
Intimidate            1                  3            
Jump                  6                 10            
Listen                2                  4            
Move Silently         2                  4            
Open Lock             6                 18           
Perform               n/a               n/a           
Repair                1                  2            
Search                5                  12           
Spot                  6                  8            
Swim                  2                  6            
Tumble                6                  8            
Use Magic Device      5                 26            
 
Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Human Bonus) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
 
Level 2 (Paladin)
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Good
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Smite Evil
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
 
Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Warrior of the Wild
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Grace
Feat: (Automatic) Lay on Hands
 
Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Health
Feat: (Automatic) Fear Immunity
 
Level 5 (Paladin)
Feat: (Automatic) Turn Undead
 
Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kama
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves
Feat: (Automatic) Flurry of Blows
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Damage
Feat: (Automatic) Unarmed Strike
 
Level 7 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
Feat: (Automatic) Meditation
 
Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Monk Path) Philosophy - Path of Harmonious Balance
Feat: (Automatic) Fast Movement
Feat: (Automatic) Still Mind
 
Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Magic
Feat: (Automatic) Slow Fall
 
Level 10 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) AC Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Purity of Body
 
Level 11 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Combat Expertise
 
Level 12 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Wholeness of Body
 
Level 13 (Monk)
 
Level 14 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Evasion
 
Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Lawful
 
Level 16 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Automatic) Diamond Body
 
Level 17 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Abundant Step
 
Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Defense
 
Level 19 (Paladin)
Feat: (Automatic) Remove Disease
 
Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Dexterity I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey I
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey II
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey III
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Fists of Light
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Disciple of Breezes
Enhancement: Master of Thunder
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Disciple of Pebbles
Enhancement: Master of Stone
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III

[Fratricide]

Bump for comments from the build community.

FYI, I wanted to add that my current character I'm considering reincarnating is a 12ranger/6pally/2monk... so the gear he has aquired should work fine on this new character (which was an additional requirement for this build)

[xTethx]

Take defender stance instead of knight of the chalice. 1d6 dmg against evil outsiders vs 1 dmg everything, 20 hp, +2 to AC and saves (+1 more for con) is far better. Plus you get the xtra melee hate incase you decided to melee tank, the movement speed sucks but thats why u got tumble.

[Fratricide]

I had not considered that, I will look into it, thanks.

[Fratricide]

It looks like Defnder of Siberys grants +2str/+2con and +2dodge... I'd assume that this +2 dodge does not stack with chaosguards... please confirm/deny. Beyond that much of the Defender stance supports tower shield users, this character being monk will not be using a shield.

[Anthios888]

The dodge bonus does stack with everything. The STR/CON does not stack with rage, because it prevents rage from being casted on you. It's like a permanent rage that doesn't give you -2 ac!

[RavenStormclaw]

I have a defender great if you are sword and board not worth it if you dual wield. My sword and board Pali loves it even if currently broken. The +2 dodge does not stack with chaos guards confirmed since I have them.

BTW nice build idea and I applaud your dedication to actually level to 20 and reincarnate.

[Riggs]

1. Dont multiclass monk, go 20 monk.

2. 6-7 paladin levels doesnt nearly make up for the benefits you would get from monk - more base damage, quivering palm, more ac, better saves, 10 epic dr.

Dream edges mostly suck. x3 crit on a crummy weapon vs x2 crits on 2d10 base damage....bodyfeeder, pure good/anarchic...otherwise its a +5 weapon with no bonus damage....good on maruts maybe. But then so is any old +5 anarchic weapon - and you get the 2d6 damage on top - so better than a dreamedge still.

Unarmed attack speed, along with the level 18 wind stance will mean way more attacks than 12 monk levels - so your dps will be like half by adding some pally levels and dreamedges. Or less.

If anything, going 18/1/1, or 18/2 if you are dead set on getting umd - but umd means no epic dr and lower base damage. At some point monks will also be getting prestige enhancements...and then those 12 levels vs 18 or 20 are probably going to make you want to reroll anyway.

3. Dont multiclass monks. (Again unless you are dead set on getting umd, no other class is worth it)

[Fratricide]

1. Dont multiclass monk, go 20 monk.

2. 6-7 paladin levels doesnt nearly make up for the benefits you would get from monk - more base damage, quivering palm, more ac, better saves, 10 epic dr.

Dream edges mostly suck. x3 crit on a crummy weapon vs x2 crits on 2d10 base damage....bodyfeeder, pure good/anarchic...otherwise its a +5 weapon with no bonus damage....good on maruts maybe. But then so is any old +5 anarchic weapon - and you get the 2d6 damage on top - so better than a dreamedge still.

Unarmed attack speed, along with the level 18 wind stance will mean way more attacks than 12 monk levels - so your dps will be like half by adding some pally levels and dreamedges. Or less.

If anything, going 18/1/1, or 18/2 if you are dead set on getting umd - but umd means no epic dr and lower base damage. At some point monks will also be getting prestige enhancements...and then those 12 levels vs 18 or 20 are probably going to make you want to reroll anyway.

3. Dont multiclass monks. (Again unless you are dead set on getting umd, no other class is worth it)

Humm most 20 monks I've spoken to feel underpowered when compaired to other lvl 20's. Lets compair what 8 more levels of monk contribute vs. 7 pally 1 rogue.

Pure Monk (levels 13-20) would give me:
BAB: +6
30 Spell Resistance from Diamond Soul (level 13)
Quivering Palm (level 15)**
Rank IV monk paths (level 15)
+2 AC (level 15 and 20 AC Bonus)*
+2 to hit with Flurry of Blows (level 16 and level 20)*
Ki Strike: Adamantite (level 16)**
Timeless Body - immune to undead spawn affects (level 17)
Empty Body - shadow walk (level 19)
Perfect Self 10/epic DR (level 20)
Extra Slow Fall ranks (level 14, 16, 18, 20)
Grandmaster Ranks (level 18)
Monk Serenity - capstone +10 concentration +1 ki generation (level 20)

Breakdown of Grandmaster Ranks vs. Master Ranks (I would be using wind stance and strike of the enduring)
Wind: +4 dex /-2 con vs. +3dex/-2con and + 25% vs. +20% speed bonus (does not stack with haste)
Stone (strike of the enduring) +16 vs. +12damage and 2d10 vs 2d6acid on criticals

*Must be centered and usinging monk weapons to get benifit
** Unarmed attack only

7Pally / 1 Rogue would give me:
BAB +7
High UMD (Gear / Res / Stoneskin Wands / Heal Scrolls)
lockpicking (over 70DC)
minor trap disabling (Spot ~30, Disable Device upto 65DC)
1d6 +3 sneak attack damage / attack
Rogue Haste Boost (15% boost that stacks with haste for 20sec 5/rest)
Divine Favor Spell (+2 luck bonus to attack and damage)
Lesser Restoration
Martial Weapon Proficiency
Divine Grace (with this build an extra +7 to Fortitude / Reflex / Will saves)
Lay on Hands 3x / rest for 150+ healing per use
Immunity to Fear
Bulwark of Good II (granting +3 AC aura)
Resistance of Good II (granting +3 bonus to all saves)
Paladin Toughness III (30 more HP)
Paladin Charisma II (+2 CHA)
Knight of the Chalice I (1 extra smite / rest, +1 attack, 1d6 damage, and +2 saves vs Evil Outsiders)
Unyielding Sovereignty (1300hp Heal removing death penalty's, negative levels and all debuffs once/10min)
Divine Might 1 (+2 Sacred bonus to damage for 1min 9x/rest)
Divine Sacrifice I (attack deals additional 5d6 light damage and increases critical multiplier by 1 costs 5hp / 1 sp)
Exalted Smites I (+9 to hit / +7 to damage and +1 to critical multiplier)


Making side by side compairsons are difficult, but your claims that multiclassing would decrease my damage, AC, and Saves appear to be incorrect. I show a net increase in all those areas. While I would not have 10/epic DR, I gain the ability to stoneskin myself and use heal scrolls. My saves would be about 10 better in every area and I would have the ability to use non monk weapons (scimitars / khopeshes) at any level if I dont mind not using a Master stance (which is ok if I'm hasted). Further I would be able to help my party more by opening locks and pally aura.

Your claim about dream edges sucking... well I only have 2 decent ones atm (parrying and pure good). The constant bodyfeeder affect allows me to solo nicely since it and my stoneskin absorbs all grazing damage due to my AC. I even have left over bonus hp to spam Divine Sacrafice without affecting my hp. On my 12ranger / 6pally / 2 monk the dream edges crit for around 100 (over 170 with smite or divine sacrafice on evil outsiders), and non crit damage when using power attack is around 40 a swing. I wouldn't say Dream Edge's damage sucks though I dont know what a pure 20monk pulls off in damage using handwraps, I will however say that I out kill them in instances.

Why even go 12 monk vs the 1 or 2 common in splash builds?
1 extra feat
2ac when centered
Improved Evasion (nice against 900 point traps)
Poison Immunity
Abundant Step
Slow Fall
+2 Saves vs. Enchantments
Wholeness of Body (another heal)
Way of the Clever Monkey III (6 energy resistance, +3 haggle, +3 saves vs. traps)
Extra abilities when I dual wield Dream Edges.

Normally I would go ranger for Tempest I or II and favored enemies but with my past life ranger feat I'll still have access to buff barkskin +5 3x/rest. The speed bosts when DW Dream Edges and centered should make up for lack of tempest. Additionally you can not multiclass 4 classes so I would loose 1 rogue which gives the benifits listed above (traps, lockpicking, sneak attack, high UMD)



I do want feedback though. Please tell me if I'm wrong or have additional suggestions.

[Riggs]

Well if you want the build have at it.

A d6 dreamedge +6 pure good (which wont bypass pit fiend dr anyway), vs a 2d10 fist, with options for metaline now, well I am not sure how one seems better than the other one that has higher numbers….

If not using fists, a d6 kama vs a d10 khopesh, +2d6 +d4 +d6 +burst +blast (or +4ac) plus metaline….I mean I know they look cool and all….but they are not good weapons. Bodyfeeder for a max 15 point temp hp, vs healing fists that are constantly healing you every single hit. Bodyfeeder wont heal you to full if you drop low, healing fists will.

Monks get bab 20 with fists, and dev notes state that they get more attacks with unarmed (Somewhere in Eladrins posts), wind stance adds a haste effect AND a stacking bonus with haste, so wind stance +haste is faster than just haste alone(I think its like 7.5 or 12.5%). A level 20 monk with wind stance and greater twf attacks FAST.

So…a 2d10 weapon, plus a Tod ring with holy burst say (2d6+burst), plus healing fist and shock strike( 2d20 vs 5d6 for divine sac), with say force burst of pure good wraps for dps, options for metaline wraps now for raid bosses, or weighted 5% for constant auto stun, with x2 crits for 6 full seconds every stun vs x3 crits on a lower number only on a 20, and with monk speed autocrit happens very fast. Add a second ring get shock burst too maybe. Can get 4-5 extra dice numbers on wraps…2d10 +2d6 +d10 +d6 + burst +burst + ki strikes ….how exactly does a d6 +d6 weapon even come close?

+2 divine might wont make up for all that extra damage….

AC and saves will be higher on a pure monk, negating the paladin bonus, and freeing up the points into charisma to add to str/dex/wis/con say. Maybe get a 2-3 point bonus with aura AND charisma bonus…except once your around 30 saves the rest doesn’t matter anyway – dc 55 traps will whack you with a 32 save or a 29 save just the same.

Lots of people can open locks, and any full pally in a group – of which there are many now – will override the aura anyway.

10dr all the time is far better than stoneskin clickies – high level stuff a mineral 2 stoneskin will last maybe 10 seconds usually, unless your running around with a 80 ac, then it will last maybe 20-30 seconds in a fight – leaving a lot of time unprotected in a 30 min quest. Re-wanding 70 point stoneskins every 5 seconds drops your dps a lot.

So the only real benefit is umd. Heal and res scrolls, true seeing scrolls maybe, and beoing able to solo stuff with locked doors…vs a ton of other benefits.

If you want umd that bad go nuts – but you give up a massive amount of things to get it.

Monks got shafted on dps yes…until mod 9, there are a lot more options now to help rebalance things – and they still get the other benefits, and whatever pre’s coming at some point. But 12 monk/rest whatever, is far, far inferior to 20 monk.

If you are outkilling or out dps-ing level 20 monks and your using dream edges to do it – your playing with very bad monks. Seriously.