"not reccommended for new players"

[BracchusBridgeburner]

Why not?

I see this advice repeated quite often on the forum and it leaves me scratching my head a little. Is this said to mostly protect players who aren't normally very 'gamer savvy' type of people? If so then I can understand that. But when this advice is given from a loot point of view I often see it alongside advice to take a pure class to 20 first...

... but that makes no sense to me. After all, as a new learning player would this not end up being more work than just going straight for a build that you are smart enough not to wreck? Seems to be it would be far more efficient to farm for loot on the character who needs it then it would be to have to level 2 characters vs. one.

Is it tomes? Assuming I'm willing to just buy the +1 tomes from the Store, then what is stopping me from farming for +2 tomes on my main character later on instead of some kind of "practice pre-character-character"?

I've never seen the logic in advising people to sink 20 levels of time in some type of "warm up practice character" as if it were a good idea to make that kind of time investment only to just shove the poor gimpy guy on a shelf while you play your "for real this time, this is not a drill" character.

Like I said, if this is intended to protect people who aren't really into powergaming or researching game mechanics from frustration, then ok, I can understand that.

[Arianrhod]

Most likely, it's because originally there was no mechanic ingame to "fix" a character that mistakes were made with. Since practically everyone makes mistakes, it was generally recommended that people stick with something that's harder to screw up for their first character, since losing that first collection of raid loot the first time you delete and reroll is the most painful.

Once reincarnation goes live, who knows. Maybe that advice will no longer be relevant, and people can learn as they go along without having to worry about ever losing any bound loot.

[Junts]

Why not?

I see this advice repeated quite often on the forum and it leaves me scratching my head a little. Is this said to mostly protect players who aren't normally very 'gamer savvy' type of people? If so then I can understand that. But when this advice is given from a loot point of view I often see it alongside advice to take a pure class to 20 first...

... but that makes no sense to me. After all, as a new learning player would this not end up being more work than just going straight for a build that you are smart enough not to wreck? Seems to be it would be far more efficient to farm for loot on the character who needs it then it would be to have to level 2 characters vs. one.

Is it tomes? Assuming I'm willing to just buy the +1 tomes from the Store, then what is stopping me from farming for +2 tomes on my main character later on instead of some kind of "practice pre-character-character"?

I've never seen the logic in advising people to sink 20 levels of time in some type of "warm up practice character" as if it were a good idea to make that kind of time investment only to just shove the poor gimpy guy on a shelf while you play your "for real this time, this is not a drill" character.

Like I said, if this is intended to protect people who aren't really into powergaming or researching game mechanics from frustration, then ok, I can understand that.

Sometimes its the tomes; sometimes its the sheer amount of loot needed; other times its just the sheer complexity of the character. For example, a character built to provide both DPS and raid-quality healing is terrible in the hands of a player who has not previously played a better healing character to know how to deal with their limitations; raids that depend on that kind of player either have serious problems (they dont get healed enough) or the player has serious problems (they burn tons of resources because they played badly and feel like they wasted a lot).

Its not really a question of pure class or not .. its a question of the role of a character, some of which are very bad ideas to take on when you will not have foreknowledge of the endgame content and your expected role in it. Not all jobs and characters are of equal difficulty.

[BracchusBridgeburner]

good points, but coming at it from a loot angle, if all other factors are equal, ie. the player is pretty savvy at game mechanics, is a good gamer when it comes to class roles, and is pretty unlikely to screw up the build itself, then is there really a major argument to be made to have them take a 'basic' character all the way to 20 just for loot purposes and then start levelling all over with the next character when he stands just as much chance at participating in those loot raids with his current non-basic build?

[karnokvolrath]

I see this alot as well, but i cant agree with you here. I got two RL friends to join a while back and i told them too make a fighter, get him to lvl 6. That way you can learn quests and mechanics without getting pwned. Then make a cleric because you will meet people and learn the grouping core of this game. I recomended they play the cleric up at least though gianthold and then make what you really would like to play based on what you have witnessed and what you -think- you playstyle is. Both players where very happy with my advice, one is still playing his cleric and absalutely loves it (hes turning into a good player fairly rapidly IMO, considering hes never played a mmo in his life before). The other player got his cleric to 8th but desided he wasnt happy with being the main nessity of the group and desided to make a rogue, it was probably the best desicion for him as hes alot more casual of a guy, his rogue is doing well and he really enjoys him. So in a way my "try this and find your play style" has really worked for both players.

On that note - id continue to tell people to do this, find what you LIKE to play and play it, then once you feel confident in yourself as a player go out and make that uber build of the week .

[Junts]

good points, but coming at it from a loot angle, if all other factors are equal, ie. the player is pretty savvy at game mechanics, is a good gamer when it comes to class roles, and is pretty unlikely to screw up the build itself, then is there really a major argument to be made to have them take a 'basic' character all the way to 20 just for loot purposes and then start levelling all over with the next character when he stands just as much chance at participating in those loot raids with his current non-basic build?

That can depend .. some builds are really dependent on certain short-cuts that they're built around pretty much before they even hit the level cap, which an experienced player with dozens of large ingredients can do (its entirely possible for that player to craft a dual shard item and multiple weapons within 2-3 runs) but an ew player would have to grind the raid religiously for months to have the materials to make.

Builds that skip improved critical to use mineral2 automatic keen or who are built to rely on concordant opposition items are a good example of this kind of situation.

playing such a character may not come anywhere near what its advertised as for 4-6 months of a new player's experience; when I pimp my two paladin builds, I'm always clear to note that they are dependent on one extremely popular and difficult to acquire piece of raid loot for their self-healing, and that if you don't intend to run 20-40 times through Zawabi's Revenge to get the item, you should not take the healing related feats and enhancements in the builds, because they are totally wasted without that one specific item.

[Thorzian]

the real reason people say take a toon to pure 20 first is... then at least you'll have 1 good toon before mutting up your character base with a bunch of 3 class gimps!!

[krud]

The only reason I can think of for "not recommended for new players" is if the it involves lots of twink gear and tomes to be succesful at every stage of the character's career, or the toon doesn't all come together until late in the character's career. As a newb the expectation is that you won't powerlevel straight to end game, but rather try out most of the content on the way up. If the build requires twink gear that you probably won't have, or lots of tomes that you can't buy, then it may be quite frustrating when you find your character performing way below expectations. You may not even want to take the time to grind out the all required gear if you felt he sucked most of the time you played him. "Everyone said this build was supposed to be uber"

[Lorien_the_First_One]

It's far easier to mess up a MC build than a pure, so people suggest it so you don't feel disappointed.

Pure builds (or simple builds) are by no means practice builds, they work well. And in this game, its expected that you will have multiple chars at some point, so no waste.

Many of those not recommended builds require not just tomes, but are heavily resource or gear dependant. Vets have those resources and gear stashes, new players may not and thus may never really bring that char to a fun point before they give up in frustration.

Some of those builds SUCK at low levels, but people are building them knowing that even if they are gimp from L1-15, they will eventually shine. Thats a rescipie of frustration for a new player.

Overall I just think that builders are trying to make sure people know what they are getting into and don't end up feeling disappointed by following the given blueprint.

[Arianrhod]

It's far easier to mess up a MC build than a pure, so people suggest it so you don't feel disappointed.

Pure builds (or simple builds) are by no means practice builds, they work well. And in this game, its expected that you will have multiple chars at some point, so no waste.

Many of those not recommended builds require not just tomes, but are heavily resource or gear dependant. Vets have those resources and gear stashes, new players may not and thus may never really bring that char to a fun point before they give up in frustration.

Some of those builds SUCK at low levels, but people are building them knowing that even if they are gimp from L1-15, they will eventually shine. Thats a rescipie of frustration for a new player.

Hehe...reminds me of the first time I heard of an "OG" mage or archer in AC1 - a character that was completely helpless and could do nothing but stand in a mana pool and macro spells to level up till level 70 or so, then finally became "uber"

[Anneliese]

A specialised build is not better per se than a pure build.

Both have their ups and downs.


Usually, a good pure class build is better for a new player because it has its well deserved place in a party nearly all the time - basically all the time if their spot is not filled by someone else of the same/similar class.

For example a pure THF WF barbarian. Easy to build, and nearly every party will love one if the player behind it is decent.


Specialised or "advanced" builds often do something different than their pure-class-counterpart. This might especially cause problems in groups.

Also, many of these builds suck at low levels. A new player usually wants to enjoy the game now, and not wait some weeks to months until his build shines.

[Anneliese]

Hehe...reminds me of the first time I heard of an "OG" mage or archer in AC1 - a character that was completely helpless and could do nothing but stand in a mana pool and macro spells to level up till level 70 or so, then finally became "uber"

Sort of off-topic, but:

Spec: Life&Creature = 20+16=36
Train: ManaC&Item= 14
----
50 total

War costs 16 to train, so you got it at level 26

(Now the grandpa mage, that was quite horrific to level up in the old days... )

[Aranticus]

*not recommended for new players* is something i put on my DPS/Intimitank. there are a number of reasons i added that in

1. gear - the build requires specialised gear which may be difficult to find unless they have a high level toon to help them farm for it. my DPS/Intimitank requires a +3 dex tome to qualify for twf and new players are unlikely to get there any time soon or may not have the patience to farm for it. this will mean they cannot fulfill the potential of the build, in addition, the DPS/Initmitank lists the following raid loot, 2 x mineral 2 khopeshes, 2 x greensteel tier 3 items, 2 x tod sets, tharnes goggles, leviks defender, tier 3 dt armor. the shroud gear requires 84 larges or approx 50-60 completions, the tod sets will need 18 normal tod runs or 6 elite runs

2. twitch skills - playing the DPS/Intimitank requires a certain level of ability and knowledge. when do u use intimidate, when to dps. without a good understanding of how stuff works at the endgame, it will be very hard for a new player to be able to bring out the best in the build. knowing what is the strength of a build and its limitation is important

3. reputation - the DPS/Intimitank does not really suffer in this department as it is a straight forward tanking class. i've been on my lowbie ranger and get rejected many times, and most of these rejections come from new players who think that rangers can only range and do nothing else. it will make your experience quite sour if you are running a strong MC build that is not conventional

[Feylina]

In regards to builds. i would recommend pure builds to 20 always. Mostly i believe people should do this just to get a feel for the class and how you would like to improve it based on your play style. I've done this for every class now, cept bard / wiz.

other reasons for this is that it would give you an excellent toon end game and there is very little required of pure toons ability wise. so 32 point or 28 point the diffences are minimal. I recently gave a build to someone who sent me a message (my 13 rogue/ 6 monk / 1 fighter q-staff user) but i advised him to wait for a 32 pointer. Mostly because the build is ability heavy and the loss of 4 points would make a huge difference.

Last reason for this i can think of is to get used to the game, get a feel for it and know what you are doing, how you fit into a party and even what role you like the most. Also game knowledge in regards to loot is essential for building toons and it isn't something that comes over night. Most ddo players will have stories about their first gimp toon rerolls .

If you take our advice on builds, then also take our advice that some builds are better left til you get more game experience.

[Angelus_dead]

I see this advice repeated quite often on the forum and it leaves me scratching my head a little. Is this said to mostly protect players who aren't normally very 'gamer savvy' type of people?

It's also said when a build is not actually very good at the things a character typically is supposed to do, and instead is something for the sake of variety or to demonstrate a concept.

[Lithic]

Not recommended for new guys is usually because such characters have rough early levels.

For example, the 1 rogue/1monk/18 ranger usually goes rogue, then monk, then all ranger. This means they have a low attack bonus at early levels, and their best abilities (evasion, barksin, tempest) are delayed. Such early weaknesses mean you need to be able to compensate with player resources, most often in the form of guzzling potions, or having the best gear you can get at any level. Another example would be a melee character with 8 starting constitution (especially a rogue). Though you can hit 400hp even with an 8 starting con, it is not recommended for new guys due to the ease you will have dying over and over. A vet will know how to compensate with items, potions, healing abilities or w/e, but a newbie will just tend to die over and over and get fed up.

Any build "not recommended for new players" tends to shine at end game and suffer in the early to middle levels. A new player would best avoid these hardships and play something that is fun and effective throughout the 20 levels.

[Borror0]

I use that for anything that self-describes itself as "An AC character" since having relevant end game AC is going to take a lot of grinding. I think it's preferable that new players play a character that is fun from 1 to 20 rather than slowly starting to lose efficiency north of level 12.

[BLAKROC]

as a few others have said. some of the builds don't really come together till later levels and really suffer at lower levels, not as fun to play for a first time build and can be a bit frustrating. also mentioned was the grind for gear ect... that needs to take place to make the build function as intended.

that said have fun,, try one if you want the worst that can happen is you have some fun and learn from it. Gl

Blak.

[Anthios888]

"If you can't figure out how to play it, don't come crying on the forums!"

[geoffhanna]

It's also said when a build is not actually very good at the things a character typically is supposed to do, and instead is something for the sake of variety or to demonstrate a concept.

QFT

(based on this, several of my builds are Not Recommended for New Players)