lvl 11 Mech Rogue - am I a moron?

[Dennac]

I've been seeing a lot of hints lately that I made a huge mistake fully investing in being a Mech Rogue. I have no intention of being any other kind of rogue and don't wish to waste my time on any other type.

I'm not partially invested or half-assing my gear or enchantments. I have a halfling rogue invested fully into the Mech-Rogue craft and yet there is stuff I don't see on spot and panels that don't display on search. At level 11 my primary focus skills are into their low 30's. (I'm not a rich twink)

If my assumption is wrong on my abilities, I want to know why. I am very specifically focused on all skill and stats giving benefit to a Mech Rogue. I am not trying to compete in DPS or anything else and there are not all that many instances that I've seen where being a Mech Rogue is really desirable to have at the level 11 region. People either have immunity to certain traps or there is a derth of traps or ways around them making a mech rogue pointless.

So, not wishing to play a pointless utility class, do I need to stop now or am some how just in a bad level region. And please, PLEASE spare me the politically correct platitudes. I want to know if this is a dead end so I don't waste any more time.

Thanks

[Soldarm]

People either have immunity to certain traps or there is a derth of traps or ways around them making a mech rogue pointless.

Sorry mate..but that pretty much sums it up..

The good thing about playing a rogue is that you can change your path..acrobat or assassin without too much trouble, but it sounds like you enjoy playing this toon so keep at it because it is all about the fun here

[tangledfish]

Could you give a breakdown of what your trappy skills are then? For instance, I have a very melee focused level 11 rogue (well 7/4 rogue/monk to be precise) and my trap skills are also in the 30s range, which seems pretty respectable to me. For instance, here's my breakdown (from memory, so no 100% accuracy guarantee).

Search
Base ranks: 14
Int bonus: 4 (with fox's cunning, base int 14)
Elf bonus: 2
Goggles: 10
Skill Boost II: 3
Heroism: 2
Walk of the Sun: 2
total: 37

Disable
Base: 14
Int bonus: 4
Ring: 10
Skill Boost II: 3
Heroism: 2
Walk of the Sun: 2
total: 35

Now I'm assuming you've taken feats to boost these, and the mechanic PrE will push it up further so, I have to ask this question: Do you have the best skill increasing items for your level, and are you boosting/buffing yourself for traps? As you can see I'm carrying around a +10 search item, a +10 disable item (Spot and Open Lock boosting items as well, but you get my point), a Fox's Cunning clicky and heroism pots. These things weren't too expensive to find (hint: check the jewelery brokers for +skill items with a UMD requirement, much cheaper), and the only trouble I've had with traps is when I've gone into quests 2 or more levels over my head, which I think is reasonable.

Edit: What I'm trying to say is that if your trap skills are fine then maybe you should think about increasing your combat potency. Personally, I don't find sitting back, being scared of dying because I have the power of a wet noodle, waiting for those brief moments when I can provide utility to be sufficient. It's much more fun to get in there, mix it up, and still get the party through a trap filled death-fest with ease.

[Shazzie]

You obviously really want to be the best you can be at locks, traps, etc. Does this mean you want that to the exclusion of all else? Or would you be willing to build another rogue spec (Assassin, Acrobat) that would not make any sacrifices on the Rogue skills you want the most? (Well, for total honesty you'd have to sacrifice the Mechanic spec enhancements, but you would *not* be giving up anything that would make you truly 'weaker' vs. traps/locks/etc.)

The Mechanic line is nice for lower levels, true. Doing quests above your level, doing Elite quests, and such, will be easier with the bonuses... but there will come a time when you've gotten the Boost enhancements and you've gotten gear (whether to use full time or swap in when needed) with bonuses for all your skills and you can easily swap to one of the other spec lines without weakening your ability to handle all skills of Roguish nature.

My Rogue is an Assassin and I have always been absolutely unwilling to shirk or make secondary any of my Rogue skills. FINALLY a game where Rogues are more than just stealthy DPS! Something I've been wanting in an MMO since EQ1's launch! Search/Spot/Hide/Move Silent/Disable Device/Open Lock/Use Magic Device have always been kept maxed (along with other skills), and fortified with the best enhancements I could get and gear I could find. No, I'm not a super twink- despite my join date I've only been playing since right before the DDO:EU mod released. My first character was a Cleric and as soon as I'd unlocked Drow I made a Rogue and she's been the love of my life since.

But if, literally, all you want to do is traps... I'm afraid to say you'd just be dead weight in a lot of situations. There's so much more you could be providing for your group, especially in quests where traps and locks aren't in abundance. As to why you're not getting the Spot/Search results you should... give the breakdown of status/skills/enhancements/what bonuses your gear has, as tangledfish asked, and we'll see what the problem is!

[Garseya]

I sympathize Dennac. My first toon was a 28pt Mechanic Pathed Elf I started a few months ago when I began playing. I hadn't yet read up on the forums, but around lvl 8 or so I had learned enough to realize while my trap skills and lockpicking were important, it was necessary for me to begin focusing on my combat abilities a little more. So many quests will require more from you than just handling traps and locks.
I still feel a great satisfaction playing my rogue though he feels somewhat gimped. I'm very ineffective against undead and elementals- something I'll be scouring these forums for today to try and find a soultion.
It is very frustrating for me to see someone who can take a splash of rogue and be as effective as my toon I've put two months into, but it's not their fault for being smarter than me and for using the game mechanics to their advantage. It's breaks my heart to think I'll have to reroll and rethink my rogue build philosophy.
A good group will make or break your play experience as well. Yes it is frustrating to watch others dash ahead and spring traps costing the healers valuable mana, but get used to it. Even at level 13 I still have problems with people doing this in a bad group. I still disarm traps for the exp bonus and for my own satisfaction of knowing that for 30 seconds of waiting for me to do what I'm there for the group would have been in better shape. A good group will wait for you to get the traps so that noone gets constituion damage or poisoned. I've found so many experienced players who know the quests and will actually jump in front of the control panels location aiding me in disabling faster.
I've never has problems spotting, searching, or disabling and have only blown 2 or 3 panels in my 13 levels. My stats break down like this...
Skills
Disable device 30 - 16 rank +3 ability mod +11 Misc Mod
Spot 31 - 16 rank +2 ability mod +13 Misc Mod
Search 32 - 15 rank +3 ability mod +14 Misc Mod
Open Lock 23- 14 rank +6 ability mod +3 Misc Mod
Feats
Elven Keen Senses- give me a +2 to listen spot and search
Evasion- gives no damage for a successful reflex save instead of half damage
Skill Focus- +3 bonus to all Skill checks
Skill Focus Search- +3 bonus to Search checks
Skill Mastery +1 bonus to all skill checks
Trap Sense- Acquired 4 times +1 to save vs traps and bonus increase every 3 rogue levels thereafter
Trap Finding- rogue can detect and disable difficult traps (no bonus info given)
Enchancement
Rogue Skill boost I - +2 to all rogue skills
Elven perception I - +1 to search skill
Elven Keen Eyes I & II - total +2 to search
Energy Resistance for all traps I- I invested in all these which I never see discussed.. only grants +2 energy resistance or adds to resistance. not sure if this helped or not- but i can go through traps others cant.
Disable Device I & II. +2 to disable device
Rogue Open Lock I
Rogue Search I
Rogue Spot I & II
Rogue improved trap sense I & II

Ive shifted all other traits at this point to sneak, subtle backstab, accuracy, weapon finesse, etc as My trap skills seem adequate- hopefully by level 15 or so, my DPS will be more effective.


You'll notice the open lock drop off, as this is where I switched from the mechanic path to focus more on DPS. With +4 or +5 theives and a set of +10 open lock gloves I was able to shift these point to better DPS and AC. It's ok to fail on the locks so long as you can open them eventually. But by keeping my spot, search, and disable skills high, I don't fail to find or disable the panles- which is very important.
Another thing I noticed about the spot skill is I can pick up on a trap location and be thinking the control panel is on the same side of the trap that I am, but now I know sometimes the panel's on the other side of the traps- and thats where those saves and immunities become so important... it's funny to watch a few people die trying to rush through the trap, while I can just stroll through to their amazement, loving the contant save message over my head while I gather their stones and tip toe through the trap with ease.

Guess it would have been easier to say enjoy your rogue! Don't let some bad groups or level frustration ruin your love of the class!

[Maegin]

Hey man, stay good at what your doing, as long as your efficent for what your trying to preform. Not your fault if someone wants to zerg thier way through the traps. You get bonus exp for disabling them anyways. Like someone mentioned, you can run harder stuff for harder traps, but dont neglect combat. Combat is the point of the game, and trapsmthing is only a part of the game. So just make sure you can DPS too, and stay alive.

[Angelus_dead]

I've been seeing a lot of hints lately that I made a huge mistake fully investing in being a Mech Rogue.

That's correct:
To play a "Mechanic Rogue" is a mistake.

Every rogue should be able to do traps and locks, but all that means is putting in one skillpoint per level, carrying the right items, and maybe Skill Boost I. You don't spend enhancements or feats on it, because to do so would take away from abilities which are actually useful.

The two viable rogue paths are Assassin (offensive) or Acrobat (defensive). Mechanic won't be an acceptable choice until it is fixed by the devs, which is something I've repeatedly suggested they do.

[Maegin]

It would be sweet if they made optional chests that were really heavily guarded with traps that took good trapsmithing skills to get to, on an off note.

Just seems wierd that anyone with 2 lvls of splash can achive the same as a lvl 20 as far as traps. But, I guess that makes sense cause trapsmithing is only like, 2% of what a rogue can do, so lol. just seems wierd.

[Favis]

The two viable rogue paths are Assassin (offensive) or Acrobat (defensive). .

What do you think about the halfling dragonmark Rogue (with 14 char) and possible a splash of Bard? (For skill-Rogue that are not so much into melee)

[houxer1]

it seems all of you don't realize or have thought of some of the new content and epic lvl quests that is going to need more then your measely 37's and 40's.....in sunken parish for norm search is over 60 and the dd is over 65 and not even sure about epic yet and no amount of evasion can fully save you from the half dmg, and there are now traps like disjunction that can't be evaded or saved against......i think that there need to be some mech rogues out there for those will need them

[Dennac]

Thanks for the time of your reply's everyone. I made the rogue for the utility aspect and it appears that the game does not support or reward that path sufficiently so I guess I have a choice to make. I play utility classes for group support, not DPS classes, so I will have to consider retirement.

[Angelus_dead]

it seems all of you don't realize or have thought of some of the new content and epic lvl quests that is going to need more then your measely 37's and 40's.....in sunken parish for norm search is over 60 and the dd is over 65

Sunken Parish is an excellent example of why NOT to be a mechanic rogue.

For days after the quest came out it was believed that the traps just couldn't be disarmed, because nobody had skills high enough. Finally somebody did disarm them... but it's not like it mattered towards completion of the mission.

[Angelus_dead]

I made the rogue for the utility aspect

Perfectly fine. All rogues should have "utility".

it appears that the game does not support or reward that path sufficiently

Incorrect. Rogue utility is adequately rewarded.

The game design does not encourage people to make a "trap-only" rogue, because that would be stupid.

[Angelus_dead]

What do you think about the halfling dragonmark Rogue (with 14 char) and possible a splash of Bard? (For skill-Rogue that are not so much into melee)

Rogues do not splash Bard. It is bards who splash rogue.

While the halfling dragonmark is handy for emergency healing, it does not provide real healing, and the feat cost is very expensive and would cut into combat effectiveness.

[Feynt]

Thanks for the time of your reply's everyone. I made the rogue for the utility aspect and it appears that the game does not support or reward that path sufficiently so I guess I have a choice to make. I play utility classes for group support, not DPS classes, so I will have to consider retirement.

All rogues are expected to be able to handle themselves in combat, contributing well per encounter. You can spec yourself to be a super trapper and locksmith, but in the end if you can't survive a fight with some monsters you're not going to get many party requests. Trappers are welcome, from what I've seen, especially on elite runs where traps are instantly fatal in most cases (216 damage blade trap in one of the STK missions on elite. It was a level 3 mission. o.o ). There are some who complain that trap damage on elite is bugged, but I think it's actually appropriately difficult, forcing diversity in class composition for the party (or at least a diverse character).

[Ereshkigal]

I've been seeing a lot of hints lately that I made a huge mistake fully investing in being a Mech Rogue. I have no intention of being any other kind of rogue and don't wish to waste my time on any other type.

I'm not partially invested or half-assing my gear or enchantments. I have a halfling rogue invested fully into the Mech-Rogue craft and yet there is stuff I don't see on spot and panels that don't display on search. At level 11 my primary focus skills are into their low 30's. (I'm not a rich twink)

If my assumption is wrong on my abilities, I want to know why. I am very specifically focused on all skill and stats giving benefit to a Mech Rogue. I am not trying to compete in DPS or anything else and there are not all that many instances that I've seen where being a Mech Rogue is really desirable to have at the level 11 region. People either have immunity to certain traps or there is a derth of traps or ways around them making a mech rogue pointless.

So, not wishing to play a pointless utility class, do I need to stop now or am some how just in a bad level region. And please, PLEASE spare me the politically correct platitudes. I want to know if this is a dead end so I don't waste any more time.

Thanks

There have been rumors that the Mechanic specialty may get an overhaul at some point. The talk I heard was that they may be able to salvage parts from traps and use those parts to engineer area of effect ( read: grenade ) weapons. So IF this comes to pass you may be very happy with your Mechanic.

[Noctus]

Originally Posted by Dennac
I made the rogue for the utility aspect

Perfectly fine. All rogues should have "utility".


Originally Posted by Dennac
it appears that the game does not support or reward that path sufficiently

Incorrect. Rogue utility is adequately rewarded.

The game design does not encourage people to make a "trap-only" rogue, because that would be stupid.

This is spot on. Listen to Angelus´ advice.



P.S.
IF you want a true "Support" character go into the Bard forums and search for Spellsinger builds.

Rogues are "melee DPS with trapskills"- class , not a "stand around afraid of dieing with the combat efficiency of a wet noodle, hoping for a trapbox to feel not useless"- class.

[Dennac]

I've seen this sort of player rational in other games as well, so some of the replies here don't come as a surprise to me. The fact is apparently that traps are too easy to disable and get around. When you have characters that can just splash a level or two of rogue and be perfectly viable in that aspect, it clearly indicates a problem and naturally you will have quite a few people that will fight to keep the system just like that.

This is about the status quo protecting what they see as their entitlement to keep an aspect of the game as a minor hurdle so that their invests in it are not so serious as to disrupt the entitlement. And I didn't have a problem supplying adequate DPS in combat.

[krud]

Thanks for the time of your reply's everyone. I made the rogue for the utility aspect and it appears that the game does not support or reward that path sufficiently so I guess I have a choice to make. I play utility classes for group support, not DPS classes, so I will have to consider retirement.

There is really no reason you can't do both. As others have said, once you get all the max gear for your build, and invest a few AP, your skills should be good enough for almost everything you'll encounter. However, sooner or later you wil need to take some swings at mobs, so at a minimum if you put your extra AP into sneak attack training and halfling sneak attack damage bonuses, you will be just as good as most other rogues in the dps department. If you don't like the mobs swinging back, there are ways to mitigate that as well; subtle backstab, game tactics (hit only those mobs already occupied by someone else), threat reduction weapons, etc.

[GeneralDiomedes]

And I didn't have a problem supplying adequate DPS in combat.

Well, why didn't you say so from the beginning?

Now, if you WANT to be a pure support class that is completely different. But I have to ask you, what are you going to do the other 95% of the time there are no traps to disable? The problem is that this game is combat based, and if you are not contributing to combat in some way, then there is not much for you to do.

As for your complaint about splash rogues being an insult to pure rogues, I would ask you to examine all of the feats granted to a rogue (especially the sneak attack one) and ask yourself what a rogue really is.