What do I bring to the party?

[Keiran]

I dont care how good of a player you are, if your melee and hit for 25-30dps/second vs harry its going to cost the cleric resources. In bad groups its wipe nomatter how good player you are, cause skill is no factor for end-game raiding.

Your class of choice can be a huge factor thou.
If you dont have rescources dont try: Ranger, fighter, barbarian, tank(all of these are great til lvl10!)
somewhat less mediocre is: Bard, rogues
good/exellent choices: Cleric, Paladin, Wizard, Sorcerer

I have to address the comments that skill doesn't matter if you do poor DPS...do you even understand what you said?

How can you be "skilled" and then do poorly? If you're doing poorly, you're not skilled. If you're skilled, you're not doing poorly.

Next, how do you justify labeling "tanks" as a high-resource class and not healers? And what the hell does level 10 have to do with anything? Or have you just not made it past 10 (thus you have no idea what 'end-game' raiding entails and shouldn't be commenting on it) so you're telling him you've enjoyed those classes up to 10?

Oh and you labeled rogues as "somewhat less mediocre"? I don't see your greataxe popping the trap box there sparky...let's not even mention you obviously have no idea how rogue DPS works or you'd realize they're some of the highest output in the game.

[Anneliese]

78mackson does not say that any class is mediocre etc, he just states how gear intensive they are.

And he is mostly right.

Lets take the shroud:

A paladin can cast holy sword, go KotC3 and everyone will be happy. Same for a Wiz/Sorc..grab a false life/con item, a sup pot6 weapon, a SP item and you are a valueable party member.

But lets look at a Ranger: He needs quite some grinding until his AC is ok, and especially until he aquires good weapons (unless the loot gods love him).

[78mackson]

ugh, just ugh.

There are so many things wrong with what you have said here, I bet most folks just dont think your worth flaming after that.

This is a case where we can point to join date, then to thread, and "just say No".

Pls enlighten me how a poorly equipped barbarian is going to save the day in a shroud when he is not getting healed, I´d love to see you explaining that?

@battlecircle
skills.. really? maybe this game is challenging for you, but its EASY! probably the easiest MMO out there. I dont know many other mmo´s where the clerics could be in phone or watch a film while still doing a perfect job.. or a melee can turn on auto attack then go afk(yes, I did that in shroud pre-mod8, that was the best time to fix some coffee or take a bio.)

ToD is pretty braindead unless your the kiter or the tank(and tanking in this game is pretty braindead/poorly implemented as it is). If you got a good kiter and a good tank ToD is a 100% win-guarantee.

do I play the game? Yes, I´m not much of a soloist but we did a 3 man vod in 25 min, 2 bards and a "monster". I´ve also been into an all ranger shroud when that raid was released...

My join date is on the US-servers, cause I got no reason to re-roll nor roll more toons there. Its a challenge to be fresh on a server... and I can tell you what.. there is a reason why my rangers are parked at lvl10 cause I know they will be sub-par(to my standards) at end game without gear... while a paladin dont need a single scale and still be TOP-dps(very usefull in raids) while maintaining some sort of self-reliance/which I find very important especially when you more then likely must fraternise with clerics who cant tie their own shoe laces aka "Hjoow do I heejl you all at ooonce.. its impossible!".

[Bunker]

78mackson does not say that any class is mediocre etc, he just states how gear intensive they are.

And he is mostly right.

Lets take the shroud:

A paladin can cast holy sword, go KotC3 and everyone will be happy. Same for a Wiz/Sorc..grab a false life/con item, a sup pot6 weapon, a SP item and you are a valueable party member.

But lets look at a Ranger: He needs quite some grinding until his AC is ok, and especially until he aquires good weapons (unless the loot gods love him).

But take the ranger approach for the paladin you stated above. Frankly, all classes require as little or as much tweaking as any other. Totally up to the choice of the player. Using 1 quest as an example really doesn't make a case when taking the whole game into consideration.

[Arnya]

if your melee and hit for 25-30dps/second vs harry its

Yes, after 10 seconds, your DPS MUST have accelerated to 250-300DPS...

You know, I see stuff like your post in general on Korthos all the time.

Usually followed by a stream of '/squelched xxxnooobxxx'

[78mackson]

78mackson does not say that any class is mediocre etc, he just states how gear intensive they are.

And he is mostly right.

Lets take the shroud:

A paladin can cast holy sword, go KotC3 and everyone will be happy. Same for a Wiz/Sorc..grab a false life/con item, a sup pot6 weapon, a SP item and you are a valueable party member.

But lets look at a Ranger: He needs quite some grinding until his AC is ok, and especially until he aquires good weapons (unless the loot gods love him).

thanx for clearing it up.

[Keiran]

somewhat less mediocre is: Bard, rogues

78mackson does not say that any class is mediocre etc

You're absolutely right, how could I have mistakenly thought he used to the word mediocre when he clearly didn't.

As far as saying he was claiming the classes to be "gear intensive", if he had meant that, he should have stated such: seeing as he didn't, you can't tell me what he meant any more than I can hypothesize myself...therefore I used the literal meanings presented. Instead of "gear intensive", he used the word resources...and nobody can possibly tell me that a tank spends more resources than a healer. It just doesn't happen. Buy all the "gear" you want, but have you ever funded wands/scrolls/pots/reagents/etc for a healer?

And regardless of the failed understanding of resources/gear/usefulness/etc...the overall claim of his argument is that skill doesn't matter. I was telling him he's wrong, because he is. Does gear matter? Yes, of course it does...the lvl16 in +2 stat items and korthos island gear is a liability: but to claim skill doesn't matter at all is ridiculous. Skill doesn't just come in the form of executing your role (especially in a straight forward game like this), it also - mainly - comes in an ability to properly design, build, and outfit your toon. If you lack the skill to build your toon right, you're just as much a useless sack of skin (or bolts) as the undergeared fellow in the group.

[78mackson]

But take the ranger approach for the paladin you stated above. Frankly, all classes require as little or as much tweaking as any other. Totally up to the choice of the player. Using 1 quest as an example really doesn't make a case when taking the whole game into consideration.

one quest?.. oki if this was waterworks we talked about.. but VoD, Shroud, ToD, mod8 and especially mod9 and DQ. With the chalice working on undead their dps is TOPnotch in mod 5 and SoS aswell...

besides.. paladins also have an outstanding DPS vs stuff with less then 1k hitpoints in general.

[Keiran]

... good/exellent choices: Paladin ...

... while a paladin dont need a single scale and still be TOP-dps(very usefull in raids) ...

... paladins also have an outstanding DPS vs stuff with less then 1k hitpoints in general.

In case anyone else missed this (as I did until now), it seems Mr. Mackson's intention all along here was to create a fanboi rant praising paladins - which I'm sure we can all assume is what he plays. Feel free to ignore all of my earlier posts in this thread...they were made with the intention of arguing logically against flawed statements made concerning mechanics and other such things in the game, I hadn't realized the whole point was to discuss the uberness of paladins.

[78mackson]

You're absolutely right, how could I have mistakenly thought he used to the word mediocre when he clearly didn't.

As far as saying he was claiming the classes to be "gear intensive", if he had meant that, he should have stated such: seeing as he didn't, you can't tell me what he meant any more than I can hypothesize myself...therefore I used the literal meanings presented. Instead of "gear intensive", he used the word resources...and nobody can possibly tell me that a tank spends more resources than a healer. It just doesn't happen. Buy all the "gear" you want, but have you ever funded wands/scrolls/pots/reagents/etc for a healer?

And regardless of the failed understanding of resources/gear/usefulness/etc...the overall claim of his argument is that skill doesn't matter. I was telling him he's wrong, because he is. Does gear matter? Yes, of course it does...the lvl16 in +2 stat items and korthos island gear is a liability: but to claim skill doesn't matter at all is ridiculous. Skill doesn't just come in the form of executing your role (especially in a straight forward game like this), it also - mainly - comes in an ability to properly design, build, and outfit your toon. If you lack the skill to build your toon right, you're just as much a useless sack of skin (or bolts) as the undergeared fellow in the group.

1. Resources isnt a problem for healers... if your a healer, if u just ask for it, you will be overwhelmed with scrolls and pots.. People dont want to die/fail, so they will help you as far as they can, atleast thats my experience.. maybe ppl are dumber on other servers BUT I really-really dont think so.

2. Have you read the OP? we are talking about a low-resource build that he wants to function on high level with low gimp-factor. Even if u think I´m a dummy you wont fall short with my class-recommendations..

But I do agree that learning the basics of your class should be prio 1. Prio 2 should be learning what the other classes can do. This will help your Prio 1.

[Tin_Dragon]

Pls enlighten me how a poorly equipped barbarian is going to save the day in a shroud when he is not getting healed, I´d love to see you explaining that?


Explain how a well equipped barb "saves the day" in a Shroud if the player has no clue

@battlecircle
skills.. really? maybe this game is challenging for you, but its EASY! probably the easiest MMO out there. I dont know many other mmo´s where the clerics could be in phone or watch a film while still doing a perfect job.. or a melee can turn on auto attack then go afk(yes, I did that in shroud pre-mod8, that was the best time to fix some coffee or take a bio.)
If its so perfectly easy, why are there so many players who cant figure out they dont need maxed out Heal SKILL to complete quests on elite? Yes, some F2P noob tried to tell me that it cant be done.


ToD is pretty braindead unless your the kiter or the tank(and tanking in this game is pretty braindead/poorly implemented as it is). If you got a good kiter and a good tank ToD is a 100% win-guarantee.
Really, braindead? Why do you still play? I have my issues with some things around here, but that is a pretty blanket statement.


do I play the game? Yes, I´m not much of a soloist but we did a 3 man vod in 25 min, 2 bards and a "monster". I´ve also been into an all ranger shroud when that raid was released...

My join date is on the US-servers, cause I got no reason to re-roll nor roll more toons there. Its a challenge to be fresh on a server... and I can tell you what.. there is a reason why my rangers are parked at lvl10 cause I know they will be sub-par(to my standards) at end game without gear... while a paladin dont need a single scale and still be TOP-dps(very usefull in raids) while maintaining some sort of self-reliance/which I find very important especially when you more then likely must fraternise with clerics who cant tie their own shoe laces aka "Hjoow do I heejl you all at ooonce.. its impossible!".
You must be in some pretty sorry groups if your Pally can out DPS GS geared toons, maybe thats why your so jaded.

Yar.

[78mackson]

In case anyone else missed this (as I did until now), it seems Mr. Mackson's intention all along here was to create a fanboi rant praising paladins - which I'm sure we can all assume is what he plays. Feel free to ignore all of my earlier posts in this thread...they were made with the intention of arguing logically against flawed statements made concerning mechanics and other such things in the game, I hadn't realized the whole point was to discuss the uberness of paladins.

Paladins are like the Maradona of melee builds when it comes to new players.. Fanboi or not its hard to deny that. I´m a fanboi of bards n rangers for those who knows me. ...If I can make just one single new player choose Paladin infront of a ranger as his first "high level" then I think, I made a pretty darn good job. And seasoned Vets should really push people into build stuff they want in their raids, then maybe we wouldnt have so many "private LFM´s"...

[Kraak]

Honestly - there are not that many private LFM's

[78mackson]

Yar.

maybe u should do some research:

http://community.codemasters.com/for...d.php?t=393789

0% fort
Ravager: 603
Pynk: 545
Wf max dps Fighter: 496
WF max dps Paladin: 492
Monster: 490
WF max dps Barbarian: 487
WF max dps Ranger: 468
WF paladin18/1/1 max dps unarmed: 449
The Human, Critrage-Tempest barbarian: 441
(full twitch)THF WF barb: 437
Monkster: 425
(full twitch)Archorn: 414
(Full-Twitch) The Human Crowd Control Fighter: 401
Tempest-Paladin: 391
Raidak: 241

50% fort
Ravager: 443
WF max dps Paladin: 440
WF paladin18/1/1 max dps unarmed: 431
Monster: 414
WF max dps Fighter: 414
Pynk: 412
WF max dps Barbarian: 410
Monkster: 407
WF max dps Ranger: 406
(full twitch)THF WF barb: 385
(full twitch)Archorn: 370
The Human, Critrage-Tempest barbarian: 366
(Full-Twitch) The Human Crowd Control Fighter: 353
Tempest-Paladin: 353
Raidak: 214

[78mackson]

Honestly - there are not that many private LFM's

I obviously meant Guild only and friends to friends grouping... I mean, you wouldnt mind pugging if the gap between good n bad players wasn´t as big as it is.... I know, I wouldnt. I mean last night we took a hireling to Xorian as the 4th member instead of LFMing for one... IF I got a tell while doing Xorian from a well known guild then I would probably ditch the hireling, even if I didnt know who exactly this player was..