Adding the Forth kind of Reincarnation

[Tolero]

If someone at Turbine (i.e. you ...) were to add up all the threads/posts, etc, what is really being asked for by your customers are:

change in alignment
change in multiclassing levels
28 -> 32 point conversion.
skill/feat/attribute reallocation.

"True" reincarnation is a Turbine driven model. The paying customer base has been asking for a "respec" for years.

Instead Turbine's focus is on what more conveniently provides them with an opportunity to implement additional "grinding" in a game that apparently even Turbine believes has an insufficient amount of content.

Please give us our "respec" regardless of what you call it or where "True" reincarnation sits.

I believe you misunderstand the postings by MadFloyd and I. We have it. It's coming. It's just also a HUGE amount of work. After all we have to make sure the process actually works and doesn't just turn you into a crate afterwards (and ooooh yes, early renditions of it DID turn you into a crate). Any time you're fiddling with the guts of a character there are sooooooo many aspects to consider and test for. It's like the butterfly effect where if you're not careful you step on a bug and totally change history in the process. True Reincarnation is not as risky because the only things we need to remember about you are - what did you used to be, what items did you used to have? And even that required some severe testing to make sure you still end up with what you're supposed to and not a broken character that you can't log into any more.

[SableShadow]

I believe you misunderstand the postings by MadFloyd and I. We have it. It's coming. It's just also a HUGE amount of work.

Thanks, Tolero!

I'm all out of rep, but I do have this for you:

[ArkoHighStar]

why have a fourth just have greater include the level respec. As it stands greater really is only usable for those who have 28 pt builds.

[FluffyCalico]

There are three kinds of Reincarnation now:
1. Change stats, skills, feats, appearance.
2. Change stats, skills, feats, appearance, and 32 point builds.
3. Change stats, skills, feats, appearance, levels, 34 point builds, taller, snazzy colors, and Past Life feats.

There is a large gap between what is provided by type 2 and 3, so there is room to usefully add a 4th kind between them:
3.5: Change stats, skills, feats, appearance, 32 point builds, and levels.

That's so simple and logical I can't think of what else to say. What baffles me is why Turbine isn't offering a Reincarnation option for someone who wants to change a level or two but doesn't feel a need for 34 point builds and Past Life feats. Any ideas?

Many people I have talked with really just want to change their race. So 3.5 would not help them they would still have to do a true rez just to take a new race.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I believe you misunderstand the postings by MadFloyd and I. We have it. It's coming. It's just also a HUGE amount of work. After all we have to make sure the process actually works and doesn't just turn you into a crate afterwards (and ooooh yes, early renditions of it DID turn you into a crate). Any time you're fiddling with the guts of a character there are sooooooo many aspects to consider and test for. It's like the butterfly effect where if you're not careful you step on a bug and totally change history in the process. True Reincarnation is not as risky because the only things we need to remember about you are - what did you used to be, what items did you used to have? And even that required some severe testing to make sure you still end up with what you're supposed to and not a broken character that you can't log into any more.

Thank you very much for this update T, along with the progress reports on GR/LR/TR.

Can I beg you to please give us a preview of what you expect the respec version will look like BEFORE TR goes live. Many people are making tough choices between the 3 types of reincarnation plus waiting for an unknown period for an unknown respec type. It would be really helpful in decision making to know with more insight what is probably comming so people can make the best choices possible on if it makes sense to GR/LR/TR/wait.

Thanks!

[Oreg]

I believe you misunderstand the postings by MadFloyd and I. We have it. It's coming. It's just also a HUGE amount of work. After all we have to make sure the process actually works and doesn't just turn you into a crate afterwards (and ooooh yes, early renditions of it DID turn you into a crate). Any time you're fiddling with the guts of a character there are sooooooo many aspects to consider and test for. It's like the butterfly effect where if you're not careful you step on a bug and totally change history in the process. True Reincarnation is not as risky because the only things we need to remember about you are - what did you used to be, what items did you used to have? And even that required some severe testing to make sure you still end up with what you're supposed to and not a broken character that you can't log into any more.

Haven't read the forums in awhile but I did read this and I am impressed with your honesty and attitude. Well Done. And I am also glad to see that the Reincarnation definition(s) may be changing. There was room for improvement.

[Angelus_dead]

turn you into a crate afterwards (and ooooh yes, early renditions of it DID turn you into a crate).

Now you're going t have to add the /crate emote. Or at least give the druid a dialog option: "But what if I come back as a crate?"

True Reincarnation is not as risky because the only things we need to remember about you are - what did you used to be, what items did you used to have?

Some people would be satisfied to have a version of reincarnation that remembered nothing more than True Reincarnation does, and is only different in:
1. No 34 build points, Past Life feat, larger size, or other benefits.
2. XP penalty changed to XP bonus.

That would let someone "fix" a messed-up character faster than rerolling it, which is what a lot of folks desire. Of course, they'd desire it more if favor and tomes-consumed were also retained.

[FluffyCalico]

Some people would be satisfied to have a version of reincarnation that remembered nothing more than True Reincarnation does, and is only different in:
1. No 34 build points, Past Life feat, larger size, or other benefits.
2. XP penalty changed to XP bonus.

.

Should also note most people do not consider larger size or past life feats as currently done to be of benifit. A few people are considering rolling a ranger and back to what they are now... but they are few.
I do not think getting 2 more build points justifies haveing to both relevel and needing 60% more xp...
Just do away with the past life feats and the 60% xp both.

[Tolero]

Now you're going t have to add the /crate emote. Or at least give the druid a dialog option: "But what if I come back as a crate?"

Heh I'll have to forward that along to them.

Some people would be satisfied to have a version of reincarnation that remembered nothing more than True Reincarnation does, and is only different in:
1. No 34 build points, Past Life feat, larger size, or other benefits.
2. XP penalty changed to XP bonus.

That would let someone "fix" a messed-up character faster than rerolling it, which is what a lot of folks desire. Of course, they'd desire it more if favor and tomes-consumed were also retained.

It's kind of like building construction... sometimes it's less difficult to build a new building from scratch than to try and remodel an existing one. The trick is with the other forms of reincarnation: we WANT you to retain your XP, favor, and all that jazz. With those forms we WANT you to be able to retain everything instead of having to effectively "reroll" the character.

True Reincarnation is not meant as a respec in any way shape or form. It is a new beginning, as new as if you rolled a new character (though with some benefits over a "standard" new character). If you're a player who is interested in "respec," True Reincarnation is not what you want to use. You'll be seeing TR first however as it is less difficult - because Kruz burns your body to ash and feeds it to his tree. No seriously, he really really really REALLY does do that.

[Furbitor]

There are three kinds of Reincarnation now:
1. Change stats, skills, feats, appearance.
2. Change stats, skills, feats, appearance, and 32 point builds.
3. Change stats, skills, feats, appearance, levels, 34 point builds, taller, snazzy colors, and Past Life feats.

There is a large gap between what is provided by type 2 and 3, so there is room to usefully add a 4th kind between them:
3.5: Change stats, skills, feats, appearance, 32 point builds, and levels.

That's so simple and logical I can't think of what else to say. What baffles me is why Turbine isn't offering a Reincarnation option for someone who wants to change a level or two but doesn't feel a need for 34 point builds and Past Life feats. Any ideas?

Taller? Taller? who wants to see a tall halfiling? that just AINT RIGHT! Thats like seeing worlds tallest midget!! or stripeless zebras!

NOooooo save the halflings!!

[Borror0]

It's kind of like building construction... sometimes it's less difficult to build a new building from scratch than to try and remodel an existing one. The trick is with the other forms of reincarnation: we WANT you to retain your XP, favor, and all that jazz. With those forms we WANT you to be able to retain everything instead of having to effectively "reroll" the character.

Does that mean that, if True Reincarnation was changed to retain tomes or favor, it would become far more complex than it is now and would have to be delayed like the other two other types of reincarnations due the additional QA work that will be required (or risk to be turned into a breakable)?

[Gol]

True Reincarnation is not meant as a respec in any way shape or form. It is a new beginning, as new as if you rolled a new character (though with some benefits over a "standard" new character). If you're a player who is interested in "respec," True Reincarnation is not what you want to use. You'll be seeing TR first however as it is less difficult - because Kruz burns your body to ash and feeds it to his tree. No seriously, he really really really REALLY does do that.

Does today's update offer a class/level respec mechanism other than True Reincarnation, though? Because until we have an alternative, what you meant for it to be is largely irrelevant to what it currently is - our only option.

[WeaselKing]

I sure wish Tolero would take pity on you and correct the spelling error in your thread title A_D.

[Gol]

- Greater/lesser/etc. reincarnation are still being heavily tested and worked on, and it is extremely likely that True Reincarnation will come before they do.

That is extremely disappointing.

[MadFloyd]

That is extremely disappointing.

I share your sentiment.

It's certainly not because resources are being directed towards TR over the other forms, but rather the seemingly never-ending hoops that we keep having to jump through to get the latter working correctly.

[Angelus_dead]

It's certainly not because resources are being directed towards TR over the other forms, but rather the seemingly never-ending hoops that we keep having to jump through to get the latter working correctly.

Here's another interesting academic question: Why did Turbine ever decide to launch DDO without level respec in the first place?

I assume you weren't on the project at that time, so you can't really answer. But as you can certainly tell, a feature like this is much easier if it was planned from the start instead of squeezed in later. The need to allow respec seems airtight:
1. Game designers are not infallible. They'll make mistakes.
2. When mistakes have been made, they should usually be fixed.
3. Fixing mistakes changes the game rules, which may invalidate the choices made by existing characters.
4. A player whose choices are retroactively invalidated will become upset, unless she is allowed to go back and change her selection.

I'm guessing that whoever was in charge of the base DDO planning hadn't been heavily involved in Asheron's Call, because someone with a lot of MMORPG experience would've known that.

[bobbryan2]

Here's another interesting academic question: Why did Turbine ever decide to launch DDO without level respec in the first place?

I assume you weren't on the project at that time, so you can't really answer. But as you can certainly tell, a feature like this is much easier if it was planned from the start instead of squeezed in later. The need to allow respec seems airtight:
1. Game designers are not infallible. They'll make mistakes.
2. When mistakes have been made, they should usually be fixed.
3. Fixing mistakes changes the game rules, which may invalidate the choices made by existing characters.
4. A player whose choices are retroactively invalidated will become upset, unless she is allowed to go back and change her selection.

I'm guessing that whoever was in charge of the base DDO planning hadn't been heavily involved in Asheron's Call, because someone with a lot of MMORPG experience would've known that.

I would guess because generally MMOs have two teams of devs. The devs that actually create the game and leave when it's done, and the devs that maintain and upgrade the game for the lifetime it exists.

And the creation devs are much more considered with a successful launch and crisp looking game than they are the long-term viability of it. The code rarely fits together, and can be extremely hard to read later on, and even harder to modify, but it works. Then they leave the mess for the devs that will sit on it forever.

[Borror0]

I would guess because generally MMOs have two teams of devs. The devs that actually create the game and leave when it's done, and the devs that maintain and upgrade the game for the lifetime it exists.

That's true but I don't think that was at the cause this time.

I think the reasoning used was that, "This is a D&D MMO so we should try to recreate the D&D experience as faithfully as possible without worrying about features that are seen as must-haves for habitual MMOs." This explains odd decisions like the lack of a solo-friendliness in a post-WoW MMO as well. Maybe this line of reasoning was imposed by Atari or the designer felt that the D&D license was strong enough to overcome those shortcomings but this seems, to me, the most plausible explanation.

[Angelus_dead]

I think the reasoning used was that, "This is a D&D MMO so we should try to recreate the D&D experience as faithfully as possible without worrying about features that are seen as must-haves for habitual MMOs."

But respec is a part of D&D, and not only a recent one. In first edition it was called "Retroactive Continuity", and indeed that usage of the term might have helped popularize it more widely. It is standard practice that if the Dungeon Master changes the character-building rules once the game is in progress, he'll allow the players to adapt to the alterations.

PS. Of course in first edition there was also the Wraith Wrestling method.

[Borror0]

But respec is a part of D&D, and not only a recent one. In first edition it was called "Retroactive Continuity"

True but not intuitively so. It's more easy to think "you don't change your character for each dungeon in D&D" or something like that.